Downtown Khazan: The Restaurant At The End Of The Omniverse

[Farealmer]

Seriously though: They are the "Paraelemental" Outer Planes. Hell, Hades and the Abyss are effectively thriving communities with their own outlooks on things. The in-betweens appear to mostly just be blurry conceptual hick towns where things are given some breathing room to be a little less black and white, and I'm totally okay with that given that each of the Cardinals is an entire universe in and of itself.

Then why not just the 9? I mean it's not like the middle 8 couldn't be shoved into the other 9 as layers. And generally far better layers than the ones the main 9 accually have. Because even in the main 9 you get your fair share of filler places. Infact even in Hell and the Abyss only a small % is accually made interesting everything else is just generic infinite made for no other reason than "THE OUTERS ARE INFINITE PLACES OF INFINTE"(TM).

Infact why not just throw the wheel out all together and make the planes nothing more than dungeons to fight stuff on...oh wait 4th did that. Well i can certainly see why they chucked the wheel. If you aren't going to do anything with 90% of it why bother redoing it for your books each edition?

The Blood War is only so constant because the lower planes get all the psychotic pricks and the Yugoloths in the way of the fight are acting to gleefully facilitate it whilst playing both sides. Frankly the Modrons and Slaadi are probably too repulsed by one another's home ground to bother wasting time with a large number of concerted organized raids when they've got better things to do

And that would be fine if the Blood war was "fighting because even if they were all exactly the same alignment or even the same guy copied infinitly they'd still kill each other for fun and games". But it was given this huge law vs chaos aspect to the point of the box sets being the planes of law and the planes of chaos. When in practice it was never presented as such except on the tin.

Just poor design when you hype up a war of the outlooks and then just make it between beings that would fight over anything anyway.

[Omegalith]

Then why not just the 9? I mean it's not like the middle 8 couldn't be shoved into the other 9 as layers. And generally far better layers than the ones the main 9 accually have. Because even in the main 9 you get your fair share of filler places. Infact even in Hell and the Abyss only a small % is accually made interesting everything else is just generic infinite made for no other reason than "THE OUTERS ARE INFINITE PLACES OF INFINTE"(TM).

It's not often explained very well... Basically the outer plains aren't actually so much infinite as they are as big as they need to be. Dis is the best example: The whole layer is one big city, so if you try to head for the outer wall random empty streets and buildings will spring up to fill the extra space you're using up.

Hence why Dispater uses drawing an accurate map of the city as a punishment: He knows it's an impossible task.

And that would be fine if the Blood war was "fighting because even if they were all exactly the same alignment or even the same guy copied infinitly they'd still kill each other for fun and games". But it was given this huge law vs chaos aspect to the point of the box sets being the planes of law and the planes of chaos. When in practice it was never presented as such except on the tin.

Just poor design when you hype up a war of the outlooks and then just make it between beings that would fight over anything anyway.

Well, they're not fighting the Yugoloths even though they're in the middle of it. It's totally a big-ass eternal scuffle over Asmodeus not liking it when Demogorgon pees in his cereal. It's the hatred of the relatively tiny group of Demon Lords and Archdevils at the top for one another's methods that's really making it an all-out war rather than a series of random but constant border scuffles.

[Farealmer]

It's not often explained very well... Basically the outer plains aren't actually so much infinite as they are as big as they need to be. Dis is the best example: The whole layer is one big city, so if you try to head for the outer wall random empty streets and buildings will spring up to fill the extra space you're using up.

Yes, but how it's supposed to be and how it's presented and thus accepted amoung the players of the game is two different things. Most outer planes stuff is presented as infinite for it's own sake.

Well, they're not fighting the Yugoloths even though they're in the middle of it. It's totally a big-ass eternal scuffle over Asmodeus not liking it when Demogorgon pees in his cereal. It's the hatred of the relatively tiny group of Demon Lords and Archdevils at the top for one another's methods that's really making it an all-out war rather than a series of random but constant border scuffles.

This doesn't address my issues concerning it. It's still presented as something it's effectively not(law vs chaos). Interesting enough though in 1st edition both demons and devils fought with daemons over Gehenna and Tarterus.

[Farealmer]

Though the above aside i do find it curious that you accept the mercenary daemons better than the nihilist ones. When even the merc ones are effectively self destructive evil in their own way. In that i mean weakening their alignment by inflamming the conflict between the other evil outsiders.

[Omegalith]

Yes, but how it's supposed to be and how it's presented and thus accepted amoung the players of the game is two different things. Most outer planes stuff is presented as infinite for it's own sake.

More a problem of writers missing that point a little too often than it not being there.

This doesn't address my issues concerning it. It's still presented as something it's effectively not(law vs chaos).

Well, it is Law vs Chaos, that's what the argument is about.

It's just not all of Law or all of Chaos. Just the warlike assholes.

Interesting enough though in 1st edition both demons and devils fought with daemons over Gehenna and Tarterus.

That seems to have been before the Blood War really kicked off. If I'm not mistaken, 1E's planes have been retconned as the early state of the planes, with stuff like Tiamat not having been steward of Avernus in millions of years.

[Omegalith]

Though the above aside i do find it curious that you accept the mercenary daemons better than the nihilist ones. When even the merc ones are effectively self destructive evil in their own way. In that i mean weakening their alignment by inflamming the conflict between the other evil outsiders.

Think about it: the Blood War is causing waaaaaaay more suffering all around than no Blood War would, and right on their doorstep. Plus, the Yugoloth losses are considerably less than those of the real fighters. Basically they're thinking oddly short term (Why go out for causing suffering when we can order in?) and long term (Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Eventually only we will be left to shape the concept of Evil!) at the same time.

Plus, using their Mezzoloths as someone else's mercenaries gives them on the job training and weeds out the weaker ones.

[Farealmer]

More a problem of writers missing that point a little too often than it not being there.

Ain't that the tagline of D&D's planes.

Well, it is Law vs Chaos, that's what the argument is about.

But again it was made this huge faultline in the planes. When as you say, it was rather between two leaderships that would of been just as likey to fight if say they were both lawful just with a different opinion of what the law was.

That seems to have been before the Blood War really kicked off. If I'm not mistaken, 1E's planes have been retconned as the early state of the planes, with stuff like Tiamat not having been steward of Avernus in millions of years.

Well i canot say how true that is. I was just point it out as an interesting tidbit.

[Omegalith]

Well i canot say how true that is. I was just point it out as an interesting tidbit.

It's also typically inconsistent: the last days of 3rd ed were saying "Oh yah, back in the old days we didn't have Demons running the Abyss, we had ugly Lovecraftian fellows who used Demons as a slave race. Obox-Ob was in charge at the time." yet there was also a "Demogorgon is totally a primal force from the dawn of time. He's pretty much always been top dog." version of events.

[Farealmer]

Think about it: the Blood War is causing waaaaaaay more suffering all around than no Blood War would

Not really, if it was like say the blood war in Rifts than hell yeah. That did the concept right. With whole planets and solar systems being ravaged by one side or the other. And both sides getting into everyones doomsday weapons to use against the other. Bringing in demons literally the size of planets to make a play to take over galaxys. But their has never really been that much spillage on the D&D blood war elsewhere. It is a lower planes conflict that pretty much stays there. When if both sides stopped evil would be stronger and more abundant overall.

[FarBeyondC]

Any examples.



Oh I *twitch* like the Dresden Files novels just fine.

I mean it's a masquerade setting so obviously there's a few minor *twitch* consistency issues, but they're good fun to read.

*Observes and takes notes*

[Omegalith]

Not really, if it was like say the blood war in Rifts than hell yeah. That did the concept right. With whole planets and solar systems being ravaged by one side or the other. And both sides getting into everyones doomsday weapons to use against the other. Bringing in demons literally the size of planets to make a play to take over galaxys. But their has never really been that much spillage on the D&D blood war elsewhere. It is a lower planes conflict that pretty much stays there. When if both sides stopped evil would be stronger and more abundant overall.

1: The Blood War is described as occasionally spilling out to the Material Plane and other places(Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the Yugoloth's doing, what better way to ruin a continent without using your own resources than to trick the mortals into letting an endless hell-war onto their lawn?), though again this isn't shown very well or even mentioned frequently enough.

2: The Evil guys suffer more too. As far as Ultroloth Psychology goes, I'm not sure if they care all that much whether it' a Balor or a Solar they're watching so long as he's being torn apart screaming.

[Omegalith]

Nice to see Magneto actually adressing the Nazi irony thing in his backstory.

[Farealmer]

1: The Blood War is described as occasionally spilling out to the Material Plane and other places(Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the Yugoloth's doing, what better way to ruin a continent without using your own resources than to trick the mortals into letting an endless hell-war onto their lawn?), though again this isn't shown very well or even mentioned frequently enough.

2: The Evil guys suffer more too. As far as Ultroloth Psychology goes, I'm not sure if they care all that much whether it' a Balor or a Solar they're watching so long as he's being torn apart screaming.

1. Still i have to say if it isn't shown well or mentioned much than it's the same as if it didn't exist at all. What's the point of the most epic war there is if you don't even bother showing it's effects on the setting? Infact they really should of made the blood war the cause of the Sigil havoc instead of the faction war. I mean for Pelor's sake in planescape they have rich people touring blood war battlefields like it's some african safari. How am i supposed to take it seriously when rich douche #3 is sipping tea while a Balor and a Pit Fiend fight to the death in the background?

2. Which goes back to my "little better than nihilists" point.

[Omegalith]

1. Still i have to say if it isn't shown well or mentioned much than it's the same as if it didn't exist at all. What's the point of the most epic war there is if you don't even bother showing it's effects on the setting? Infact they really should of made the blood war the cause of the Sigil havoc instead of the faction war. I mean for Pelor's sake in planescape they have rich people touring blood war battlefields like it's some african safari. How am i supposed to take it seriously when rich douche #3 is sipping tea while a Balor and a Pit Fiend fight to the death in the background.

Yes, Sigilians are ridiculous. I think we've covered that.

Really though, it's the whole "Only writing about Hell and the Abyss" problem again. The Great Wheel has all the seeds of being an incredibly epic setting, but it would be a pretty much unprecedented act of worldbuilding to actually flesh it out and tie it together properly.

Part of it, I think, is the assumption that not enough people would buy the books. To an extent they're right: Less people would buy a book on Angels than on Demons, and a heck of a lot less would buy three books on Angels.

2. Which goes back to my "little better than nihilists" point.

All in the execution. Pathfinder Daemons slaughter the vast majority of their potential recruits, and the few who can survive on the run for centuries will morph into cat-sized Cacodaemons.

Yugoloths/TSR Daemons harvest the Larvae that are the NE dead, and put them through great factories where they are pressed into Mezzoloth shells to form vast armies. Mezzoloth's being significantly more powerful than the basic Demon and Devil forms due to the refined process (Though weaker 'Loth forms occur if you leave the Larvae alone long enough), and most of them are stockpiled in concealed locations for much later use.

PF Daemons are obsessive oblivion cultists who's only reason for living is to make sure everyone else is dead first.

Yugoloths are scheming magnificent bastards who like to play the long game, but are occasionally brought low by indulging their sadistic impulses or by their deep-rooted psychological compulsion to always lie at all times.

It's more flavoury. They know everyone pays more attention to the Demons and Devils and they like it. Hardly any mortal cultists of the Yugoloths, because they prefer when they come as a surprise.

[Farealmer]

I really want someone on this board to turn into an asthmatic stegosaurus.

But i digress...

Yes, Sigilians are ridiculous. I think we've covered that.

What is sigilians in this context? Cause it wasn't just people from Sigil.

Part of it, I think, is the assumption that not enough people would buy the books. To an extent they're right: Less people would buy a book on Angels than on Demons, and a heck of a lot less would buy three books on Angels.

Unfortunatly. Likey the reason angels and archons were turned into nongood beings in 4th.

All in the execution. Pathfinder Daemons slaughter the vast majority of their potential recruits, and the few who can survive on the run for centuries will morph into cat-sized Cacodaemons.

Yugoloths/TSR Daemons harvest the Larvae that are the NE dead, and put them through great factories where they are pressed into Mezzoloth shells to form vast armies. Mezzoloth's being significantly more powerful than the basic Demon and Devil forms due to the refined process (Though weaker 'Loth forms occur if you leave the Larvae alone long enough), and most of them are stockpiled in concealed locations for much later use.

PF Daemons are obsessive oblivion cultists who's only reason for living is to make sure everyone else is dead first.

Yugoloths are scheming magnificent bastards who like to play the long game, but are occasionally brought low by indulging their sadistic impulses or by their deep-rooted psychological compulsion to always lie at all times.

It's more flavoury. They know everyone pays more attention to the Demons and Devils and they like it. Hardly any mortal cultists of the Yugoloths, because they prefer when they come as a surprise.

Well to be fair you're comparing 30 years of history to like 3 years worth. Still though i think you are oversimplifing the PF daemons and overstating the D&D ones.