WWE RAW II: RAW is Jericho!

[XPac]

But it ended.
Ill take a dirty end over no end.

For a free TV match, I'm okay with a non-finish if I enjoyed the actual match.

For a PPV which I actually paid money for, I of course apply a different standard.

[Legato]

For a free TV match, I'm okay with a non-finish if I enjoyed the actual match.

For a PPV which I actually paid money for, I of course apply a different standard.

Agreed. I'd be pissed if the main event of a PPV ended in that manner but since it's free tv in what was simply a filler match I'm not sweating it.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

He's only the most hated recently because he's only one still there. Vince was already "fired" before Punk came back. Punk went directly after Nash when he was attacked then Nash started feuding with HHH and was put out of action. Punk had a feud with Del Rio for the title and got his payback and his belt out of it and now Del Rio is on the shelf. Johnny Ace is the only one left who hasn't really paid for his crimes. To add to things that Johnny did himself he put Punk in a gauntlet match then screwed him out of the win and followed it up by screwing him out of a match the very next week all while being a coward about it.

no i mean even when nash & del rio were still around, he didn't seem to hate them as much as ace, and we are talking kayfabe here so i don't see how nash starting a feud with HHH means punk just forgets about what he did.

and even still, by wrestling standards that's all rather tame. it's not like ace had somebody hit punk with a car, or ace crushed his wife, or crushed his ankle with a chair, etc. he put him in a gauntlet and cost him some matches of no serious consequence unless you count D ziggy getting a title match a serious consequence.

and again, i get how and why ace is the heel, and i'm not trying to pull the old "it doesn't make sense" card just because i don't care for it. i'm just saying why i think it's not coming off so well.

[EZMOHR]

Oh, lbo, if you want me to give in and pick this apart, i have one big issue with it.
Show opens, Dolph cuts another good promo, gets booed on his own, nicely done.
End of show, Dolph doesn't even get mentioned, Punk and Johnny attack each other and the guy he is wrestling is just kinda chilling there like a third wheel.
I don't like that, it's the issue with doing an angle like this but i don't like it anymore. Ziggler and Punk, given time, would have a great match, putting Ace in it doesn't make it better, it just provides a distraction and makes everyone wonder what Punk and Ace are going to do.
Which sucks for Ziggler, but they are giving him main event on the Rumble, so it's not all bad for him.

I didn't like the ending of RAW because, lets get real, if you heard the way Punk was bitching, and what he was saying to Ace, you would swear up and down that Punk was the Heel and Ace is the Face. It was confusing, and hell, made me want Ace to kick Punk's whiney, bitch ass.

I guess, at the end of the day, the WWE champion right now looks like a coward heel...when he is being sold as a crowd pleasing face. It just...I don't know, kinda sucks. And Ziggler is an aftertought in the suck.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

I didn't like the ending of RAW because, lets get real, if you heard the way Punk was bitching, and what he was saying to Ace, you would swear up and down that Punk was the Heel and Ace is the Face. It was confusing, and hell, made me want Ace to kick Punk's whiney, bitch ass.

I guess, at the end of the day, the WWE champion right now looks like a coward heel...when he is being sold as a crowd pleasing face. It just...I don't know, kinda sucks. And Ziggler is an aftertought in the suck.

damn, is it just me or has it been a while since you've posted??

anyways i'm just happy to know i'm not the only one who thought that segment didn't come off well in establishing ace as the guy we're supposed to hate.

[Alex]

I didn't like the ending of RAW because, lets get real, if you heard the way Punk was bitching, and what he was saying to Ace, you would swear up and down that Punk was the Heel and Ace is the Face. It was confusing, and hell, made me want Ace to kick Punk's whiney, bitch ass.

I guess, at the end of the day, the WWE champion right now looks like a coward heel...when he is being sold as a crowd pleasing face. It just...I don't know, kinda sucks. And Ziggler is an aftertought in the suck.

Except Ace is his boss, is reffing his title match, and said he was going to screw him.
If you think Punk sounded like he was whining there, i really have to question how you whine, because you must be the angriest guy on earth.
He has been screwed by this man repeatedly,week after week after week, his friends have been fired by this guy, and now the guy comes right out and admits yes, he is going to screw him.

Nothing Punk said makes him a heel, nothing he said makes him a coward, his promo is the one thing on that Raw i haven't seen people complaign about in fact. Ace really is a bad guy, they have shown that pretty clearly at this point. Punk pointing out his problems with him isn't whining.

[EZMOHR]

Except Ace is his boss, is reffing his title match, and said he was going to screw him.
If you think Punk sounded like he was whining there, i really have to question how you whine, because you must be the angriest guy on earth.
He has been screwed by this man repeatedly,week after week after week, his friends have been fired by this guy, and now the guy comes right out and admits yes, he is going to screw him.

Nothing Punk said makes him a heel, nothing he said makes him a coward, his promo is the one thing on that Raw i haven't seen people complaign about in fact. Ace really is a bad guy, they have shown that pretty clearly at this point. Punk pointing out his problems with him isn't whining.

No, they've made Ace look incompetent, as it is him bumbling around that had screwed Punk. If anything, Punk looks like he is complaining every week that he knows he's getting screwed at the Rumble, with actually no basis. Forgive me, I was in the wilderness teaching classes for the last month, but, I did watch all the RAWS, and don't recall Ace saying he is gonna screw Punk at any time. If anything, Punk's character has seemed paranoid and desperate to make Ace his Vince for his Stone Cold 2012 act. IT seems forced that he wants to hate Ace.

So, yeah, his speech seemed like whining, due to the fact he has no basis IMO to think he's getting screwed (like I said, I could be forgetting something, and most likely am.)

Further, he's going out of his way to run this guy down for being a suck-up and using that to get into his position...but well, didn't Punk kinda become this character in an un-altrustic way by telling Vince he was gonna hold his belt hostage and take it to whatever Bingo Hall ROH was playing in? Seems like Punk forgot that he got the fans behind him by being a heel sort of.

And don't get me started on Punk calling Ace a crap wrestler, when, I mean, we know he wasn't. Hell, if anything Ace has a case of saying he was like Punk b4 Punk had his massive cryfest about being treated wrong back b4 MitB.

I guess, the only thing I'm having a problem with is Punk is telling some 55+ year old man off in the ring, and calling him a suck up, and that he did it the wrong way, when at the end of the day Punk is only where he is at now because he pissed and moaned, and Sally Field'ed his way into it b4 MitB. If they tried to have Punk see the similarties between him and Ace, it would make for a more compelling story. Now, it just seems like some young guy being a dick to an old guy. AT least for me.

And yeah, it's been awhile Lbo. Been teaching some interesting classes of late.

[Dick/babs]

damn, is it just me or has it been a while since you've posted??

anyways i'm just happy to know i'm not the only one who thought that segment didn't come off well in establishing ace as the guy we're supposed to hate.

You forgot about me that not cool bro

[Alex]

No, they've made Ace look incompetent, as it is him bumbling around that had screwed Punk. If anything, Punk looks like he is complaining every week that he knows he's getting screwed at the Rumble, with actually no basis. Forgive me, I was in the wilderness teaching classes for the last month, but, I did watch all the RAWS, and don't recall Ace saying he is gonna screw Punk at any time. If anything, Punk's character has seemed paranoid and desperate to make Ace his Vince for his Stone Cold 2012 act. IT seems forced that he wants to hate Ace.

So, yeah, his speech seemed like whining, due to the fact he has no basis IMO to think he's getting screwed (like I said, I could be forgetting something, and most likely am.)

Further, he's going out of his way to run this guy down for being a suck-up and using that to get into his position...but well, didn't Punk kinda become this character in an un-altrustic way by telling Vince he was gonna hold his belt hostage and take it to whatever Bingo Hall ROH was playing in? Seems like Punk forgot that he got the fans behind him by being a heel sort of.

And don't get me started on Punk calling Ace a crap wrestler, when, I mean, we know he wasn't. Hell, if anything Ace has a case of saying he was like Punk b4 Punk had his massive cryfest about being treated wrong back b4 MitB.

I guess, the only thing I'm having a problem with is Punk is telling some 55+ year old man off in the ring, and calling him a suck up, and that he did it the wrong way, when at the end of the day Punk is only where he is at now because he pissed and moaned, and Sally Field'ed his way into it b4 MitB. If they tried to have Punk see the similarties between him and Ace, it would make for a more compelling story. Now, it just seems like some young guy being a dick to an old guy. AT least for me.

And yeah, it's been awhile Lbo. Been teaching some interesting classes of late.

Ok, ive seen some of this Ace matches, and frankly, he wasn't as good as th epeople he was working with, first off.
Second, go back and watch, you are pretty clearly forgetting all the clear signs that Ace has been screwing him, and others actually.
He screwed Ryder on that very show, and Punk, just as he did the week before, and the week before that.

It's not suppose to be the young guy being the dick to the old guy. It's the different guy being a dick to the tool suit. This is a story that only works because it's Punk in the face roll, replace Punk with Cena and it loses any effect it has. People don't want to see how Punk is similar to him, they want a villian to hate, and they hate Johnny, and they like Punk.

[EZMOHR]

Ok, ive seen some of this Ace matches, and frankly, he wasn't as good as th epeople he was working with, first off.
Second, go back and watch, you are pretty clearly forgetting all the clear signs that Ace has been screwing him, and others actually.
He screwed Ryder on that very show, and Punk, just as he did the week before, and the week before that.

It's not suppose to be the young guy being the dick to the old guy. It's the different guy being a dick to the tool suit. This is a story that only works because it's Punk in the face roll, replace Punk with Cena and it loses any effect it has. People don't want to see how Punk is similar to him, they want a villian to hate, and they hate Johnny, and they like Punk.

But it's been set up that the Ace is bumbling, not intentionally screwing Punk. Yeah, I know it is all wink wink nod nod, that Ace is screwing him and it looks like incompetency, but still, it is not flat out Ace saying he's gonna screw Punk.

And I know it's not supposed to be young guy being a dick, but guy standing up to the suit as the story. But, for me, it just seems like it is a young guy on top of his game going after the career mid-carder who has got a little stroke now, and wanting to put him in his place. In other words, it's that dick football/basketball/baseball player that tries to get his manager/coach fired because they didn't play up to the level that player did. And that just makes Punk look bad.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

No, they've made Ace look incompetent, as it is him bumbling around that had screwed Punk. If anything, Punk looks like he is complaining every week that he knows he's getting screwed at the Rumble, with actually no basis. Forgive me, I was in the wilderness teaching classes for the last month, but, I did watch all the RAWS, and don't recall Ace saying he is gonna screw Punk at any time. If anything, Punk's character has seemed paranoid and desperate to make Ace his Vince for his Stone Cold 2012 act. IT seems forced that he wants to hate Ace.

So, yeah, his speech seemed like whining, due to the fact he has no basis IMO to think he's getting screwed (like I said, I could be forgetting something, and most likely am.)

Further, he's going out of his way to run this guy down for being a suck-up and using that to get into his position...but well, didn't Punk kinda become this character in an un-altrustic way by telling Vince he was gonna hold his belt hostage and take it to whatever Bingo Hall ROH was playing in? Seems like Punk forgot that he got the fans behind him by being a heel sort of.

And don't get me started on Punk calling Ace a crap wrestler, when, I mean, we know he wasn't. Hell, if anything Ace has a case of saying he was like Punk b4 Punk had his massive cryfest about being treated wrong back b4 MitB.

I guess, the only thing I'm having a problem with is Punk is telling some 55+ year old man off in the ring, and calling him a suck up, and that he did it the wrong way, when at the end of the day Punk is only where he is at now because he pissed and moaned, and Sally Field'ed his way into it b4 MitB. If they tried to have Punk see the similarties between him and Ace, it would make for a more compelling story. Now, it just seems like some young guy being a dick to an old guy. AT least for me.

And yeah, it's been awhile Lbo. Been teaching some interesting classes of late.

when ace finally said he was going to screw punk it almost felt like he finally said fuk it, if punk is going to keep saying i'm going to screw him i will. also for the record i felt the same when stone cold did all that shit to vince when vince hadn't really done anything but try to protect austin.

about ace being a suck up, WWE has mostly told and not shown us that about johnny. he just seems like more of a dumb ass than an evil SOB

i really do feel it seems like punk is the one going out of his way to fuck with johnny, making videos, wearing shirts, doing speeches equipped with props and all. johnny hasn't shown that kind of dedication.

But it's been set up that the Ace is bumbling, not intentionally screwing Punk. Yeah, I know it is all wink wink nod nod, that Ace is screwing him and it looks like incompetency, but still, it is not flat out Ace saying he's gonna screw Punk.

And I know it's not supposed to be young guy being a dick, but guy standing up to the suit as the story. But, for me, it just seems like it is a young guy on top of his game going after the career mid-carder who has got a little stroke now, and wanting to put him in his place. In other words, it's that dick football/basketball/baseball player that tries to get his manager/coach fired because they didn't play up to the level that player did. And that just makes Punk look bad.

this is what alex keeps missing. we all know what the story is, and it makes sense. it's just not coming off well or like i think they intend it to.

You forgot about me that not cool bro

no never forget you bro, you and legato also got the same vibe.

[EZMOHR]

Thanks Lbo, you said it better than me. It seems like Punk is going out of his way to squash a bumbler, yet Punk and the WWE are calling him an evil McMahon esque manipulator, when, in fact, he's just some middle manager that shouldn't have gotten the position (storyline wise) to start with.

If they would've shown Ace as more ineffective and in over his head in dealings with Punk (which would've been a new, interesting twist to the guy in charge going after the babyface guy story) the storyline would be more concise. Instead, we are being beat over the head that Ace is a bad guy and is out to screw Punk, and that in turn is making Punk's promos seem like he is a whiny bitch, and his antics seem mid-card.

[lboinyamouf4sho]

Thanks Lbo, you said it better than me. It seems like Punk is going out of his way to squash a bumbler, yet Punk and the WWE are calling him an evil McMahon esque manipulator, when, in fact, he's just some middle manager that shouldn't have gotten the position (storyline wise) to start with.

If they would've shown Ace as more ineffective and in over his head in dealings with Punk (which would've been a new, interesting twist to the guy in charge going after the babyface guy story) the storyline would be more concise. Instead, we are being beat over the head that Ace is a bad guy and is out to screw Punk, and that in turn is making Punk's promos seem like he is a whiny bitch, and his antics seem mid-card.

IDK about the whiny part(though that could xplain why legato didn't like it) but his level of anger seems unjustified to me. like i said he hasn't even taken a beatdown, johnny screwed him out of some matches that were basically meaningless.

[darthjoker]

just 2 quick questions since I get to see the 1-hour version of the programs:

1. Was the Funkasaurus there this week?

2. Was there a Cena and/or Kane segment?

[Gryphon]

just 2 quick questions since I get to see the 1-hour version of the programs:

1. Was the Funkasaurus there this week?

2. Was there a Cena and/or Kane segment?

Yes
and Yes.