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  1. #16
    TROLL KILLA Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose100 View Post
    Where were we...

    Oh yeah people were saying that Tchalla should NEVER be a leader, or as good a leader as Hawkeye b/c he spied on the Avengers(the true goalpost of the debate..)
    I'm not going to waste anymore keystrokes talking about any other character not integral to T'Challa's world in this appreciation thread.

    T'Challa like other similar characters within the 616 MU would be a good candidate to lead a team of metahumans as clearly evidenced by Hudlin, McDuffie and David Liss end of.

    But others with opposing opinions are entitled to hold same.

    No harm, no foul.
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  2. #17
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  3. #18
    TROLL KILLA Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra View Post

    Leadership 101.

    Class is in session.

    Frak the haters.
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  4. #19
    Psychological violence Moose100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    I'm not going to waste anymore keystrokes talking about any other character not integral to T'Challa's world in this appreciation thread.

    T'Challa like other similar characters within the 616 MU would be a good candidate to lead a team of metahumans as clearly evidenced by Hudlin, McDuffie and David Liss end of.

    But others with opposing opinions are entitled to hold same.

    No harm, no foul.
    Exactly, my point was it's hard to argue aginst others given their baggage compared to TChalla's.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Leadership 101.

    Class is in session.

    Frak the haters.

  6. #21
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    [QUOTE=Mr MajestiK;14487665]The fact that both Tony Stark and Cyclops have been portrayed as self centered jerks with delusions of grandeur doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect on their ability to "lead" their respective camps.

    Can you honestly say that either one of these characters commands the full trust or universal respect of their associates?[quote]

    In a word; yes.

    In the wall of text version; Cyclops is a dick. That is undisutable, anyone who knows him would agree with it. I wouldn't say he had delusions of grandeur, but he certainly is an asshole and on a personal level can be difficult to get along with. But when it comes to the fighting you can always trust on him fighting for the same thing you are, which as an X-Men is a better future for mutantkind where they can live in piece with humanity.

    As for Stark, he's a dick as well, but let's use Civil War as an example of this; he could only lead the people who shared his beliefs on the Registration act. As he put it to Captain America even if he abandoned the Pro-Reg side and joined him, there were plenty of heroes who would still be on that side. Compare with Captain America (who, like Superman, is really the prime example of what a Great leader is), whose mere presence was enough to get 95% of the anti-reg side to fight with him (as pointed out by Stark, with the exception of Cage and a few others, the majority of those guys were fighting with ihm because it was Captan America). And after the Civil War through The Initiative and Secret Invasion a lot of heroes didn't trust Tony Stark personally. They trust him now because the registration act is gone.

    But with T'Challa, Wakanda is always going to exist (unless some writer decides to Genosha it, but hopefully that never happens) so Wakanda is always going to be his first prority. With Cyclopes you knew that he was always going to do what he thought was the best thing for human-mutant relations, protecting the world that hates and fears them. With Stark, you knew he was trying to do what was best for all superheroes, although that did cause friction between him and the other heroes.


    You cite T'Challa's primary motivation for joining the Avengers in a manner that seems to suggest that he was somehow wrong for doing so.

    As a reigning monarch of an advanced culture that had kept themselves to themselves in the aftermath of having their previous king assassinated by an outsider it would have been illogical for T'Challa to have joined a collective of Western metahumans without the thought of studying them from within having crossed his mind.
    Oh no, don't get me wrong. He had valid motivations for doing so, he did it for all the right reasons, I'm just citing it as an example of how there will never be a 100% trust going on between him and the other heroes.


    As stated previously, this applies to a number of other team leaders in the 616 MU so making it look as if T'Challa is automatically disqualified and precluded from leadership of the Secret Avengers (or any other group) whilst turning a blind eye to the usage of other characters with similar character traits is a bit mystifying to say the least.
    My arguement basically is boiling down to priorities; as King T'Challa will always put Wakanda first (which I will stress is the right thing for him to do), wereas with those heroes if you were on their team you agreed with their #1 priority.


    Ummm, wouldn't it be odd for a reigning monarch to NOT have the interests of his own nation foremost in his mind as a top priority?
    I should have made that clearer; yes it should be his top priority. It is the right thing for him to have it as his top priority.

    What does the Kilmonger business have to do with anything?
    It just showed how T'Challa viewed things. He was willing to put the entire global economy in danger to stop Killmonger from taking over Wakanda. Yes it helped him achieve that and yes he did fix the economy afterwards, but still when was the last time you saw Captain America put the livelyhoods of Europe in danger to stop the Red Skull? From another heroes perspective; Wakanda itself was in no real immediate danger. Sure Killmonger could have taken over the country through the economy, but T'Challa could have let it happen and then erode his support and prove him to be a horrible king before taking the crown back. He chose the fastest solution to stop Killmonger, but it was also the one that would have had the worst results for everyone but Wakanda if he had failed (and to illustrate the point; he came close to failing).

    It was a brillant plan, but if you were a hero who had experienced the hardships that came with seeing a loved one lose their job and experience unemployment in a bad job market, that might cause some resentment issues if this guy became leader of you team. It would illustrate just what T'Challa is willing to risk for Wakanda.


    Dude, what part of high level intellectual warrior king do you not understand?


    You need dramatic conflict to drive any story and that's what Christopher J. Priest provided in this (and every other instance) when he worked on the BP book.
    I'm not arguing that, I'm just trying to illustrate a point (which clearly I am failing missirably to do here). He had a brilliant plan, and he did fix the problem, but he came incredibly close to dying there which he did not plan on. Let's say that instead of rendering him comatose Killmonger actually killed him while he was distracted, who would have fixed the world's economy then? He took a gamble with the wellbeing of 8 billion people and almost lost.


    Tony Stark, Cyclops fit the frame you've described here and they (much like T'Challa) have been called out for their paranoid tendencies as well. (though you seem to be of the opinion that this has not been the case with T'Challa)
    They have, but they share similar #1 prorities with the people they lead. As for T'Challa, he has been called out on it in the past, but as of late he has not.


    Unfortunately, this seems to be an opinion that seems to be shared by some of the current movers and shakers at Marvel so I guess you're in "good" company.
    That actually hurts.

    I don't think he'd make a good leader (althogth I will amend my previous assertain; he won't be a good leader of a team that is not made up of people he does not have a long and healthy relationship with, such as the FF, Cage,Falcon, Fist, Cap, etc.), but that doesn't mean I don't think he'd make a good and valuable member of a team. I'm honestly suprised nobody thought to include him in the Forever Foundation (they can just ignore Doomwar so he can get along with Doom). He'd fit so perfectly in there it makes no sense that he's not.


    Respect is overated and often given to the undeserving.
    Or is earned and given to the Worthy. And T'Challa has earned his fair share of respect and in turn respects others even if he doesn't fully trust him (case in point; he respected Justice enough to trust him to help rescue a plan from Hydroman soley because Justice was an Avenger, that's just how much he respects the team).

    And once again I ask, what's so strange about a monarch having the interests of his sovereign nation uppermost in his mind?
    Nothing. That is perfectly valid. I can respect such a monarch. On the flip side, I would be hesitant to trust him 100% to help better him own country, since I know that if it came down to Wakanda or Australia he will (and rightly so) put Wakanda ahead.

    And christ, this thread moves too damn fast now. It locked by the time I finished this.

  7. #22
    U got me str8 trippin boo nj06's Avatar
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    Leaders lead!

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra View Post

    I'm ammending my arguement; T'Challa is not a good leader, unless he has a good personal relationship with his team mates (so Storm, Cage, Falcon, Fist, Cap, Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben, etc.).

    And I still say parts of his legs have vanished and he's too stubborn to let Gravity take him own.

  10. #25
    R.I.P. Dwayne McDuffie Greg Anderson's Avatar
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  11. #26
    Queen of the Amazons 'Flo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Not really. People were asking why Hawkeye was more qualified than T'Challa. I answered. Rather than response, it's all "goalposts this, goalposts that."
    Strictly speaking as an observer... I'm pretty sure the goalposts were never moved, LOL. And I'm inclined to agree with your argument here. T'Challa IMO is the better tactician and more capable leader between the two, but Hawkeye has a better shot, period. It doesn't mean T'Challa can't lead. It doesn't mean he shouldn't lead. But leading oftentimes requires that you easily establish rapport with those you may be unfamiliar with, and that you have good communication skills (I would know). Hawkeye's track record is better where this is concerned.

    Regardless, he's a bad dude. Who else has reached SEVEN appreciation threads???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaoken View Post
    I'm ammending my arguement; T'Challa is not a good leader, unless he has a good personal relationship with his team mates (so Storm, Cage, Falcon, Fist, Cap, Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben, etc.).

    And I still say parts of his legs have vanished and he's too stubborn to let Gravity take him own.
    Again, so what? That argument is pointless, because we have not seen it. If the doesn't have good personal relationships at the start, fine...but readers would then get to see it occur in the comic.

  13. #28
    R.I.P. Dwayne McDuffie Greg Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra View Post
    Yo, I've never ever seen this before!
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  14. #29
    Senior Member taozen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Anderson View Post
    First page!





    And what a great page it is. My favorite line in that story is when the fighter amalgamation skrull says to T'Challa, "I have trained my entire life to face you." and T'Challa answers, "Then you have already lost. For I have trained my entire life to face the unknown."

    Now the unknown is what is going to happen to this character in the coming year?

    Will he get another ongoing?

    Will Marvel keep he and Storm together with the Avengers vs the X-Men coming up and there are so many fans who want them apart.

    Hopefully we will have "The Return of the King" story we BP fans really want. Oh I still want a year one type story. I believe T'Challa deserves one and it could be very interesting since he is such a complicated character. I just want to see the formation of Marvel's one true heroic polymath.

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