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  1. #31
    the demon king rules master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Huh? Never really thought about defining the word. So lets see...

    If I say it is something always evil by nature it wouldn't feel right.

    If it say it is something always good by nature it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that has to have been an angel it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that never has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that always has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

    So I guess, I am open about this. If the author wants to call something demon I am likely to just roll with it.

    Edit: Wait, I got it. A demon is something like a human.
    i'd say in this: in this medium, as far as demons are concerned, its best not to deal with absolutes.
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  2. #32
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Huh? Never really thought about defining the word. So lets see...

    If I say it is something always evil by nature it wouldn't feel right.

    If it say it is something always good by nature it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that has to have been an angel it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that never has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

    If I say it is something that always has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

    So I guess, I am open about this. If the author wants to call something demon I am likely to just roll with it.

    Edit: Wait, I got it. A demon is something like a human.

    Edit2: Wait no, a demon may be wholly unlike a human and I'd still be fine with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    i'd say in this: in this medium, as far as demons are concerned, its best not to deal with absolutes.
    *snaps fingers and points* Exactly!

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    so you're saying that a demon, regardless of his deeds or intentions, are by their very nature pure evil?

    make sure you dont tell YYH kurama's mom that.
    Technically, he was a youkai, which was translated as demon.

    ISTR reading a story once (can't remember the title) where the demons of Hell were all Lawful Good beings who were given the task of watching after wayward and/or dangerous souls until they could find redemption, and were extremely pissed when someone chucked an innocent into Hell and did their best to save them.
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  4. #34
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Technically, he was a youkai, which was translated as demon.

    ISTR reading a story once (can't remember the title) where the demons of Hell were all Lawful Good beings who were given the task of watching after wayward and/or dangerous souls until they could find redemption, and were extremely pissed when someone chucked an innocent into Hell and did their best to save them.
    That's what some people interpret Hell to be: a place where evil souls spend their eternity paying for their sins until they are fit to be reincarnated and given another opportunity to become better people, then finally ascend to Heaven.

  5. #35
    the demon king rules master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Technically, he was a youkai, which was translated as demon.

    ISTR reading a story once (can't remember the title) where the demons of Hell were all Lawful Good beings who were given the task of watching after wayward and/or dangerous souls until they could find redemption, and were extremely pissed when someone chucked an innocent into Hell and did their best to save them.
    the same could be said of bakemon from ushio and tora. i just find it easier to call them demons.
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  6. #36
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Yeah, but when you attribute that philosophy to Judeo-Christian terms, it doesn't hold well. For example, Angels are supposed to be purity incarnate and supposedly incapable of emotions like hate, jealousy, or any malignant intentions.

    Until we get to Samael, Lucifer and a few other Angels mentioned in the Bible who betrayed God and hold scorn for humanity, thus were cast out Heaven and became Devils (or in Lucifer's case, THE Devil).
    Yeah... God gave angels free will..... the proof is in Lucifer and what he choose to do with it. That's why I'm not quite as annoyed with angels going rouge. Not a fan of it... but at least I can see it happening because it has actually happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Then you realize that anything with a soul(and thus a will) doesn't conform to one side or another. Hell, when you consider that most demons spoken of in religion are either fallen angels or humans whose sins were too great, you realize just how muddled the concept of a demon really is.
    It's not muddled for me at all..... not even a bit.

    I have never heard of a demon/fallen angel doing anything to help a human...... ever. If you have some example of this happening in the Bible I will concede the point to you. Perhaps my whole way of looking at it would change, but until I see that..... I'm sticking with my current views.
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    To me, the difference between an evil human and a demon is that a human has several opportunities to change his/her life way of life for better or worse depending on innumerable variables(upbringing, environment, company, etc) while a demon, who's born to Hell, doesn't have the same kind of chance, thus only knows how to do evil (especially when you're being ruled over by the Prince of Darkness himself). The same can be said of Angels, in that they were created in Heaven by God, thus only know how to do good (but doesn't mean they are incapable of feeling or doing anything that opposes their nature).

    So, to me, Good, Evil, or the middleground, is all about choice, no matter who or what you are. The main differences between humans and the aforementioned ethereal beings, is that we're born in a world where we experience the elements of both realms.
    I understand. Agree to disagree then.

  7. #37
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    the same could be said of bakemon from ushio and tora. i just find it easier to call them demons.
    Same here. I wouldn't call Inuyasha a nature spirit or a faerie.(hell, even typing it makes it sound weird). I'm alot more comfortable calling youkai demons.

  8. #38
    the demon king rules master of read's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Same here. I wouldn't call Inuyasha a nature spirit or a faerie.(hell, even typing it makes it sound weird). I'm alot more comfortable calling youkai demons.
    if i had to define a demon, in this medium, its a super natural entity of a different world that are stronger than humans and live longer. good and evil are entirely up to the individual.
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  9. #39
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    To start off.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Ain't it funny how a Naruto discussion has somehow erupted into a huge philosophical debate about the nature of demons?
    MY BADDDDDDD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    Yeah... I'm gonna ask you not to call me that.
    Hm, you should have seen the original post. It was fun to write.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    He's just teasing you based on the idea that demons aren't necessarily evil as we've seen in the recent Naruto chapter.
    Welllllll....kinda.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    He seemed fairly.... serious.
    Just about the fact that titles, are titles, are titles. If you get caught up on what someone else calls me instead of trying to get to actually know me then you are......several pejorative terms.

    And right now you and your bible are stuck in black / white terminology when the world isn't black / white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post

    I have never heard of a demon/fallen angel doing anything to help a human...... ever. If you have some example of this happening in the Bible I will concede the point to you. Perhaps my whole way of looking at it would change, but until I see that..... I'm sticking with my current views.
    I mention the bible because you hold to that single definition of demons because the bible doesn't have any good demons ( but evil angels are fine for some reason ) because it's a guide book. And when you want to guide someone down your path you don't paint the enemies in a positive light.



    But for real, I only used that term because when I'm not being silly I'm being good at noticing what bothers people ( it's how I post the way I do without getting reported, you just push the bounds not break them ) and I could tell that wouldn't settle well.

    I like our debates and have no real hellspawn connections attached to you.

    It's just......titles are bunk. They aren't always accurate.

    And it's horrible if you live your entire life believing what someone else wrote / said / thought without putting your own mind to the subject to decide about it.

    So yeah.....I'll happily continue this line of conversation but I think it's about time we switched it something more important.

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    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  10. #40
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    That's what makes him funny. You can almost never barely tell. :evilsmile
    I enjoy what I do. Wish more people to enjoy what they do the same way.
    Dante is.... tricky. I've never played the games but from what I understand he is half human, yes? If so..... I would attribute any goodness in him to his human side. In other words... he may very well be a half demon but the human side gives him the power to resist his other side.
    Forget Dante, his father was pure 100% demon. Implied to be a demon of high power, of much renown, and again 100% demon.

    He fought against the other demons and became a savior almost Christlike figure in his world.....all while being 100% demon.

    But hey, titles > actions mirite?
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  11. #41
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    Yeah... God gave angels free will..... the proof is in Lucifer and what he choose to do with it. That's why I'm not quite as annoyed with angels going rouge. Not a fan of it... but at least I can see it happening because it has actually happened.

    It's not muddled for me at all..... not even a bit.

    I have never heard of a demon/fallen angel doing anything to help a human...... ever. If you have some example of this happening in the Bible I will concede the point to you. Perhaps my whole way of looking at it would change, but until I see that..... I'm sticking with my current views.
    Uh, Evil Angels *are* demons, though. That's how demons came to be.

    The muddled part is that you said that demons are evil by nature, meaning that they are born that way and were NEVER capable of anything else. But since most demons are born of beings that already have free will, and thus *choose* to be that way, you can't say that "by nature, they are evil." That's the contradiction that I'm arguing against you on, no one is born absolutely good or evil as the Bible(and life experience) teaches us. Not to mention that it's said that God in the Bible believes that Satan is capable of being redeemed and awaits for him to ask for forgivenss, so yeah, even the Lord of Darkness may not be 100% evil (more like 99.999999999%).

  12. #42
    God Of Tokusatsu Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    and why should their nature matter if they are evil or not? kurama was a murderous thief who hid in a pregnant human to regain his strength. in the end, he loved that woman like his real mother and would do whatever it took to make her happy. and he really has nothing to gain from doing it. he just loves her.

    so you cant make such a blanket statement saying all demons are evil and if they aren't evil, they aren't demons. the most famous example of this is sensui and we know what happened to him.
    Hiei's a demon too and he's mostly a good guy.
    Hell, look at Yusuke.
    Oh and Sesshomaru.
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  13. #43
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    and why should their nature matter if they are evil or not? kurama was a murderous thief who hid in a pregnant human to regain his strength. in the end, he loved that woman like his real mother and would do whatever it took to make her happy. and he really has nothing to gain from doing it. he just loves her.
    See... if he was a real demon he wouldn't be able to feel love for her in the first place.

    Uh oh.... I'm starting to do that circle thing again.
    Quote Originally Posted by master of read View Post
    so you cant make such a blanket statement saying all demons are evil and if they aren't evil, they aren't demons. the most famous example of this is sensui and we know what happened to him.
    Sure I can.... and do.

    Look, I know it's fiction and if the writer wants a demon to be good he can make a demon good.

    If he wants to call a hammer a sword then..... a hammer is now a sword regardless of what it actually is. He's the writer.

    But I don't have to like or accept it, and I don't. So.... likewise I no longer accept the tailed beasts as demons. I'll just think of them as.... I don't know, bit beasts or something. *shrug*




    Also.... I want to apologize for any thread derail this may have caused. My bad.

  14. #44
    God Of Tokusatsu Guy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Dante's dad, Sparda, on the other hand is a full demon and he kind of saved the world.
    On that same vein, Trish from DMC is basically a demon-construct and she turned good.
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  15. #45
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    See... if he was a real demon he wouldn't be able to feel love for her in the first place.

    Uh oh.... I'm starting to do that circle thing again.

    Sure I can.... and do.

    Look, I know it's fiction and if the writer wants a demon to be good he can make a demon good.

    If he wants to call a hammer a sword then..... a hammer is now a sword regardless of what it actually is. He's the writer.

    But I don't have to like or accept it, and I don't. So.... likewise I no longer accept the tailed beasts as demons. I'll just think of them as.... I don't know, bit beasts or something. *shrug*
    Meh, it's your opinion and we respect that, in turn, you've listened to and respected ours. That's how debates are. It's not like you're Web Swing/Shadow Skill.


    Also.... I want to apologize for any thread derail this may have caused. My bad.:redface
    Eh, can't speak for others but I enjoyed it. It's been a long time since I've been passionate enough to debate seriously on a subject.

    But if you want to, blame Transient. He's an awesome scapegoat.

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