Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Len Ikari145]

nah, the thing about Shikamaru's revenge was that it was something he was able to accomplish while performing a mission that was handed to him. it's unlikely that Konoha would have wanted Hidan left alive anyway. I don't think the manga has ever said that revenge, in and of itself, is always wrong-- the thing about Hidan was he was an evil guy who had no real attachments. there's a difference between wanting to kill a guy who's a high-profile enemy of your village, killed your mentor and one of the top agents of Konoha and wanting to wipe out an entire village of people because of some intrigue executed by four or five people. the difference between Shikamaru's revenge and Sasuke's is pretty big. Shikamaru wasn't prepared to use people like disposable accessories to accomplish his goal. revenge has been Sasuke's ultimate goal from the very beginning. Shikamaru had revenge as one of several goals he was juggling for one mission.

Precisely. How the hell can he be called justified for wanting to slaughter people who had nothing to do with his clan's execution(who arguably brought it upon themselves for planning an insurrection?).

[Eternal Torment]

It kind of feels like "revenge is bad except when the good guys do it".

[Len Ikari145]

It kind of feels like "revenge is bad except when the good guys do it".

Considering that a majority of the characters who've sought revenge were "good" at some point, I don't really get that vibe. Shikamaru had the excuse of carrying out his revenge as mission to eliminate Hidan and never took a step further than that, but that doesn't make him any more right than Sasuke or any other characters with similar motives, as the manga been hammering into us.

[Dark Soul # 7]

It kind of feels like "revenge is bad except when the good guys do it".

I don't think that any of the good guys besides Shikamaru ever pulled off revenge without consequences though.

I think that the general message about revenge is that it is a very sad business all together. It's understandable if you feel the need for it and it's even understandable if you decide to act on those feelings. But at the end of the day it won't bring you or anyone else anything good. People will be hurt, you won't be satisfied and at you'll probably just do others what's been done to you.

[Assassin Spider]

It kind of feels like "revenge is bad except when the good guys do it".

Actually, Hidan was already a dangerous criminal and murderer who couldn't be left alive in the first place due to the heinous s*** he'd gotten up to over the course of the sick farce he called a life. Shikamaru being the one to take him down was just because Hidan made it personal. Sasuke, on the other hand, decided to obliterate a village of relatively innocent people because he was so bats*** insane over realizing how badly misdirected his original quest for revenge had been that rather than just go after the specific people responsible, he decided to take it out on everyone in Konoha, even his old friends. Speaking of old friends, during his original vengeance kick, Sasuke decided it was perfectly all right to kill his best friend, whom he was jealous of for having a greater growth rate in terms of skills and strength than him, and use him as a steppingstone to getting strong enough to kill Itachi. Not to mention that he found defecting from his village to join a sworn enemy of said village with plenty of heinous crimes of his own to be a perfectly viable strategy for attaining his revenge in the first place.

Ultimately, there is a stark difference between Shikamaru and Sasuke; Shikamaru pursued Hidan not solely for his own vengeance but also to stop someone who was a threat to his village, while Sasuke at every turn prioritized his own revenge with no forethought or afterthought to the people who would be hurt or killed because of it. And now look what's happened.

[MartinRedmond]

I'm back to reading this after stopping for 4 years. I have read about 100 chapters and have no clue what's going on. Is it being writen by the Bleach writer now?

[Hazard]

It kind of feels like "revenge is bad except when the good guys do it".

It's a mixed bag to be honest. Hidan was someone they needed to fight. He was a crazy murderer whose religion was based on killing and he had more than enough power to cut through most people that got in his way. In that sense, stopping Hidan is something that is quite necessary.

On the other hand, there is no denying that Shikamaru was doing it for very personal reasons. He and the rest of his team were going to try to take the Zombie Brothers alone and Shikamaru pretty much told Tsunade he was going to do what he wanted.

Had Kakashi not stepped in when he did, things could have gotten ugly.

We can take it as a 'not so above it' moment. Inoichi was certainly going 'Are you nuts? We got to kill him.' when Naruto said he wanted to talk to Pain. The ninja world as a whole seems to be trapped by that ideology, and even Konoha has its own dark secrets.

I'm back to reading this after stopping for 4 years. I have read about 100 chapters and have no clue what's going on. Is it being writen by the Bleach writer now?

Curious. What exactly do you not get? Did you skip chapters?

[Dark Soul # 7]

I think that people are using this that Hidan was a threat to Konoha and that it was part of a mission like justification of Shikamaru's revenge.

It wasn't an official mission when Shikamaru and co went out, they didn't even have a full team until Kakashi played nice and jumped in on it. And even with Kakashi they were lucky that team 7 showed up when they did otherwise all but Shikamaru would be dead. All because Shikamaru, Ino and Chouji had to go out and get revenge.

Yes, Shikamaru handled it much more reasonably and controlled than Sasuke ever did. But it's still revenge and people still nearly died from it. It wasn't the greatest move ever.

[The Once And Forever]

I think that people are using this that Hidan was a threat to Konoha and that it was part of a mission like justification of Shikamaru's revenge.

It wasn't an official mission when Shikamaru and co went out, they didn't even have a full team until Kakashi played nice and jumped in on it. And even with Kakashi they were lucky that team 7 showed up when they did otherwise all but Shikamaru would be dead. All because Shikamaru, Ino and Chouji had to go out and get revenge.

Yes, Shikamaru handled it much more reasonably and controlled than Sasuke ever did. But it's still revenge and people still nearly died from it. It wasn't the greatest move ever.

Which is the point, to me. Even a genius guy who sorta gets it doesn't truly get it yet.

Also, to the "Only bad when not-good guys do it" idea, that gets rejected by Naruto/Pain. Wherein Naruto himself says that he very much wants revenge, but that it would still be bad.

[Nik Hasta]

He only has that personality because he's the main character. Doesn't change he's a hyporcrite.

I'm actually impressed.

"This character is only this character because they are this character and that's cheating,"

Good lord, that is like the Holy Grail of ridiculous arguments.

[The Dog]

The only reason why Shikamaru getting revenge on Hidan was OK is because nobody liked Hidan. See, if Hidan actually had any friends, then we'd get the whole 'revenge is bad, Mm-kay' deal with him too. It's why the Raikage wanting to punish Sasuke for his crimes is seen as 'bad', because Sasuke still has friends.

Luckily for Shikamaru, Hidan didn't have any friends, so he could get his revenge.

[Robotech Master]

The only reason why Shikamaru getting revenge on Hidan was OK is because nobody liked Hidan. See, if Hidan actually had any friends, then we'd get the whole 'revenge is bad, Mm-kay' deal with him too. It's why the Raikage wanting to punish Sasuke for his crimes is seen as 'bad', because Sasuke still has friends.

Luckily for Shikamaru, Hidan didn't have any friends, so he could get his revenge.

Nobody else except Naruto really had a problem with Raikage going after Sasuke. Some people were sad, sure, but not defensive. Shikamaru theorized that if Sasuke were to be killed by the Cloud, it would mainly be Naruto and Sakura who might retaliate, and *maybe* Ino, but he wasn't even sure on that. And he believed that the cycle of violence would, for his part at least, start with him retaliating for Naruto and Sakura if they were hurt, followed by his father retaliating for him if Shikamaru were hurt, etc. etc. It largely relies on how Naruto and Sakura would respond.

Raikage hasn't even really given up on that front, as the ninja world has had to turn its attention to the war. And Naruto's only real progress there was to declare that he should get first dibs on fighting Sasuke. There's never been a "punishing Sasuke is bad" vibe at all; if anything merely a "please let me be the one to handle him, as a personal favor."

[Ghost]

So which of these villains is the least cynical: Obito, Pain, or Madara?

Madara.

He's all like. "Yeah, this world sucks, but I am awesome. I am so awesome I'm going to make a world why I control everything. Perfect World. Right there.

That's arrogance, though. Madara obviously still believes in himself, at least.

I say Pain is the most cynical one. Madara and Obito still think they can conjure up an ideal world with genjustu; a peaceful reality were everyone is happy. Pain? His idea of a peaceful world was "everyone lives under constant threat of nuclear annihilation." When that's the best world you can imagine, you are pretty damn cynical.

[SSJLuffy]

I wonder what Orochimaru's role in this war is going be. There has to be some point besides just helping Sasuke make his own decision. Also, Orochimaru seemed a little different when he was revived. Did his personality change? Or was he just too weak to do anything at the time? Guess we'll just have to wait and see. I wonder if he has anything planned. Also who is the "man that knows everything" that Sasuke wants to talk to? Madara? Obito? Any ideas?

I think Naruto still has a little more to it than we think. I don't know whats it is though. When Kishimoto said that the series has reached its climax it made me think the series would end by the end of the year, but obviously that's not possible at this point. I'm thinking the series will last at most another year.... but probably less.

Just random stuff on my mind:

Orochimaru's up to something, Kakashi(and Guy?) vs Obito, Naruto(and Bee) vs Madara, Sasuke and co. have to get involved at some point, Ten-Tails, more info about Sage of Six Paths, and possibly Naruto vs Sasuke (its been teased that they would be getting a rematch for a while, its kind of confirmed in my opinion, but with Sasuke trying to find his own answer, I don't really know). Can't forget an epilogue showing Naruto as Hokage or maybe his fate?

[1505627]

interesting two part filler this week