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  1. #5131
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Also, at that point, Naruto would have just turned Hidan into slush, like he essentially did to Kukazu while Shikamaru was doing his thing, and what he would have done to Deidara for killing Gaara had he not Kawarimi'd away first.
    True, it was pre-Messiah character development.

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  3. #5133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Ikari145 View Post
    Y'know, with Naruto being Naru-Christ, does this mean that Sasuke is Judasuke?
    Hm, he could still be Peter or Paul, but still too early to tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taltos View Post
    In the beginning obito was relying on madara to live. madara literally controlled every aspect of his bed-ridden life, while feeding him a one sided story, and using obito's pain as a rational argument for obito to discard everything that was ever important to him. Didnt madara, put that zetsu in him? isnt madara's will inside of the black zetsu that directed tobi's steps? do we really believe its coincidence that madara let the zetsu take obito to see the death of rin? could such a coincidence even occur in fiction? At all times, with madara, obito was an a disadvantaged situation, if you consider the difference in intelligence, experience, and wisdom, he had no chance at not being converted. its like being chained to jesus's radiator, eventually he's going to convert you. He's too good at his job and youre way to exposed.

    I don't think its judgmental to acknowledge that obito did bad things. Its judgmental to assume that anyone would of done anything different in his situation.
    I think this is all very important to consider. You have to ask yourself, what normal person wouldn't go insane after all that?

    He wasn't surrounded by his real family and friends at that time. He was dependent on a very cruel, mean old man to live, and then that old man practically orchestrated his downfall.

    I'm not saying you should love Obito and think what he's doing is right, but you have to at least see why it was so easy for Obito to lose himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    Why doesn't Shikamaru go back into the Nara clan woods, dig up Hidan from the grave he buried him alive in, and let him make amends for his crimes so he can rejoin society? If we're gonna let the guy who did infinitely worse things onscreen do it, then why not Hidan, who we only see kill a few people?

    No? Why? Because his last name isn't Uchiha, so he doesn't deserve the same chances an Uchiha does, even if that Uchiha is a genocidal maniac who wants to take over the world?
    I don't think what Shikamaru did was right either.

    I think Kishi isn't showing that forgiving your enemies is easy or even "right", but rather is something you need to do in order to let yourself heal and move on. For all we know, after this is all said and done, Shikamaru may dig Hidan up and try to forgive him.

  4. #5134

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    It should be reiterated that "forgiving" and "letting go scott free" are two different things. Naruto is unwilling to just murder a beaten foe (though he was using lethal attacks during the actual fight), and is willing to see the good in people to avoid perpetuating the escalating cycle of hate and revenge, but he is still insisting that Obito pay for his crimes.
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  5. #5135
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    It should be reiterated that "forgiving" and "letting go scott free" are two different things.
    It... is?

  6. #5136
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    It... is?
    Yep.

    You can forgive a person for the crimes they've committed but still have them sentence for those same crimes.

    Just like how you can let a person get away scott free without actually forgiving them, though that is admittedly much rarer and trickier.

  7. #5137

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    You never forgive someone solely because you like them or are thinking about what's best for them. You forgive someone because you need to let go of what happened and move on.

    What punishment could you give Obito at this point that would please everyone?

  8. #5138
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Yep.

    You can forgive a person for the crimes they've committed but still have them sentence for those same crimes.
    The sentence is payment for the crime... if you're forgiven for the crime then it's... forgiven. It's like a pardon, a gift if you will.

    Now it's different when you're talking about a guy who has hurt multiple people. But on an individual level... if someone is truly forgiven then... it's over. It's a clean slate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Just like how you can let a person get away scott free without actually forgiving them, though that is admittedly much rarer and trickier.
    Yeah but that's a little different, people often times get away with things and there's little you can do about it. Or the risk of going after them is greater than the reward of punishing them. Or some other motivation at work.

    But just flat out "I don't forgive you but I'll let it go anyway."... I can't even imagine.

  9. #5139
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    It should be reiterated that "forgiving" and "letting go scott free" are two different things. Naruto is unwilling to just murder a beaten foe (though he was using lethal attacks during the actual fight), and is willing to see the good in people to avoid perpetuating the escalating cycle of hate and revenge, but he is still insisting that Obito pay for his crimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Yep.

    You can forgive a person for the crimes they've committed but still have them sentence for those same crimes.

    Just like how you can let a person get away scott free without actually forgiving them, though that is admittedly much rarer and trickier.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    The sentence is payment for the crime... if you're forgiven for the crime then it's... forgiven. It's like a pardon, a gift if you will.

    Now it's different when you're talking about a guy who has hurt multiple people. But on an individual level... if someone is truly forgiven then... it's over. It's a clean slate.
    You're confusing Forgiving with Forgiving and Forgetting.

    Just because you are forgiven doesn't mean you won't pay for your crime. Goes double if you're actually sorry because you will want to pay for them.

  10. #5140
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    You're confusing Forgiving with Forgiving and Forgetting.

    Just because you are forgiven doesn't mean you won't pay for your crime.
    If someone forgives you of a crime or wrong doing then it means you don't need to pay for it... at least in relation to the one that forgave you. It's like a pardon. Now, if other people are involved that's different as laws are in place to protect the public as a whole and thus... it is largely out of the forgiving individuals hands. Plus, others may not be so generous.


    That's why forgiving is so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Goes double if you're actually sorry because you will want to pay for them.
    If the guy is so overcome with guilt that he wants to pay for a debt that's already been lifted... he can. I suppose he's got to learn to forgive himself too.


    A guy like Kenshin comes to mind.

  11. #5141
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    If someone forgives you of a crime or wrong doing then it means you don't need to pay for it... at least in relation to the one that forgave you. It's like a pardon. Now, if other people are involved that's different as laws are in place to protect the public as a whole and thus... it is largely out of the forgiving individuals hands. Plus, others may not be so generous.

    That's why forgiving is so hard.
    No. Forgiving means you're not going to hate the guy for it. You're not going to hold grudges.

    Both moral and lawful obligations incurred by the actions you forgave him for are a different thing. Basically, "If don't hate you for it. I won't hold a grudge. You still have to do *insert redeeming action here*, not to make it up to me, but because that is the right thing to do."
    Last edited by Hazard; 11-18-2013 at 07:24 AM.

  12. #5142

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    That's the lovely thing about forgiveness. It's one of those things everyone has a different opinion on.

  13. #5143
    The Skylord FalconX2000's Avatar
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    There are people who have been shot who choose to forgive their shooters. Doesn't mean they want their shooters walking away without jail time. It just means they won't hold a grudge and don't advocate the death penalty for said shooters.

  14. #5144

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    But it just seems too easy, locking him up. Forcing him to look at the people whose lives he ruined would be better.

  15. #5145
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    No. Forgiving means you're not going to hate the guy for it. You're not going to hold grudges.
    Okay... I'm with you there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Both moral and lawful obligations incurred by the actions you forgave him for are a different thing. Basically, "If don't hate you for it. I won't hold a grudge. You still have to do *insert redeeming action here*, not to make it up to me, but because that is the right thing to do."
    Aaaaaaaaaand... this is where we differ.


    Because making it up to you, the victim, is why it's the right thing to do. That's why I would owe you a debt in the first place.

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