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  1. #4381
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    To be fair, Naruto only surpassed Jiraiya after getting training from several other teachers, while Sasuke needed his Sharingan to overpower Orochimaru when the guy tried to steal his body, and only grew stronger because of his Sharingan getting upgraded.
    Oh.... sure.

    But tell that to Sakura.... her argument is that she can compete with Naruto/Sasuke because of their respective Sannin mentors. She's not taking into account that virtually all of her abilities come from Tsunade.... while the same cannot be said for Naruto and Sasuke.

    If she did take that into account then.... it's kind of hard to say she can compete with them in the first place..... which was the core point of why she shouldn't be left out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This is not accurate. Like at all.
    I think you're getting a little too hung up on my wording. That sentence.... wasn't meant to be taken by itself like that.

    I suppose I could have added "now suddenly she wants to fight directly beside Naruto on the front lines." or something to that effect.... but... I figured it wasn't necessary since her objection was to being left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Everyone has been getting protected by Naruto, that's kind of the point of his Kyuubi high fives. It also powered people up and allowed them to do more than before, each excelling at their own thing.
    Sure... they were all being protected by Naruto.... and they were all content with said protection, including Sakura.

    The reason I'm talking about Sakura... is because she's the one who made the comments. Comments that are, frankly, both out of the blue.... and wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Sakura is a medic. As such, she has been healing people. We see her healing Karui when they buried the Jyuubi, she immediately stepped up and started healing Naruto when he ran out of gas and also found the time to give a team pep talk when other members of the alliance started to falter because Naruto went down.
    Um..... okay?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Your implication that all she's just been hiding behind Naruto is just not true. She's been doing her job, like everyone else in the alliance.
    What I'm saying is that "I think the whole thing really just boils down to her desire to be included into the group.".

    The sentence you seem to be fixated on.... was part of an explanation as to why I feel that way. Namely, the question of "If Sasuke wasn't there, would she still have said that?".

    I don't see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    If she says she's got a secret technique that is offensively oriented and on a level where it will have an impact, which she strongly implied, then I see no reason why she shouldn't go with Sasuke and Naruto. At the very least, she can continue to play white mage and heal them if they get fucked up/run out of energy.
    You may not see a reason... but does she?


    If she feels the need to justify her presence and she clearly does..... then it would be nice if the explanation she gives.... made sense. As I said, if she wants to join them then all she had to do was ask... but don't try to pull a guilt trip.




    Naruto: "Thank you for healing me, Sakura-chan! You should rest, now. Let's go, Sasuke!"

    Sakura: "...... Do you think I'm just a weak woman who can't compete with you? Tsunade trains her disciples as good as the other sannin..."


    He thanks her for putting in work for him, tells her she's earned a break.... and her response is to somehow interpret it as an attack on her capabilities. There is a reason she came to that conclusion... and it has nothing to do with what Naruto actually said.
    Last edited by Holy Spirit; 05-24-2013 at 03:35 PM.

  2. #4382
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    You may not see a reason... but does she?

    If she feels the need to justify her presence and she clearly does..... then it would be nice if the explanation she gives.... made sense. As I said, if she wants to join them then all she had to do was ask... but don't try to pull a guilt trip.

    Naruto: "Thank you for healing me, Sakura-chan! You should rest, now. Let's go, Sasuke!"

    Sakura: "...... Do you think I'm just a weak woman who can't compete with you? Tsunade trains her disciples as good as the other sannin..."

    He thanks her for putting in work for him, tells her she's earned a break.... and her response is to somehow interpret it as an attack on her capabilities. There is a reason she came to that conclusion... and it has nothing to do with what Naruto actually said.
    I can see where she's coming from though and her feeling marginalised is not unwarranted. Let's look at this from Sakura's perspective for a sec.

    Naruto, the somewhat dorky kid who had a crush on her in school, has become something unto a ninja messiah. He's been making a pretty good go at single handedly ending the largest ninja war ever, has unlocked hitherto impossible and highly potent abilities and has personally saved the lives of almost every person in in the shinobi alliance several times today via Kyuubi high fives. Sakura's been present for this and she thinks it's pretty rad. She's been healing some dudes, keeping people in the fight and so forth because even with Naruto bringing his A-game, they are still getting worked out here. But that's fine, she's a medic first, that's her primary job on the field right now.

    Naruto goes down through sheer exhaustion and she picks him back up again with her healing abilities and pep talks the rest of the alliance into holding together when it seemed they would falter and crumble. She's likely feeling pretty damn good about doing that, saving the life of Ninja Jesus and keeping the army together when faced with an Eldritch Demon Monster from the dawn of the world. Well done her.

    Then Sasuke shows up. Sasuke, who is a missing nin, she and Naruto's ex-partner and something of a problem child. She heals up Naruto fully and he decides that he's going to fight alongside Sasuke and defeat the Jyuubi in the apparent cage match setting created by the Hokages. He turns around to her, the highly talented ninja who just saved his arse, and effectively says; "Yo, nice going with the healing and all. You can go back to the sidelines now because you're not needed in this fight,"

    This is a smack to the tits for Sakura for two major reasons:

    1) The obvious; "You don't need me? I just literally saved your life and probably the world by healing your ass. Don't imply that you don't need a good medical nin to do this because you clearly do," feeling. Naruto and Sasuke are planning to face what essentially passes for an angry god in their world. The implication that they wouldn't need a medic in this fight is a mistake on their part, one that has been proven all to graphically just previously with Naruto requiring healing to stay in the fight. Plus, it also implies that they don't think of Sakura as anything other than a mere white mage with no other skills. This isn't the case because she's been taught by a Sannin who, while being an excellent medic, is also something of a first-class asskicker and Sakura has shown to have more tricks in her book than just healing. So a slightly dickish assumption on their part.

    2) Neither Naruto or Sakura have any real idea of what Sasuke's capabilities are right now. They know he was strong when they met at Orochimaru's old base, they know he made a spirited attempt at killing the Kages which ended up with him getting his ass kicked and that he failed at bringing down a Jinchuriki when he went after Bee with a squad of experimental ninja he handpicked himself. This means, as far as they know, Sasuke is significantly weaker than people who have already had the snot beaten out of them by Madara/Jyuubi which would make Sasuke about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. And yet, Naruto is all like; "Oh hey Sasuke, I'm totally sure you're competent enough to survive against an immortal zombie ninja god and his steroid abusing pokemon despite all the evidence I have at my disposal suggesting otherwise. Let's do this," without a second thought while also dismissing Sakura at the same time. Again, a pretty dickish move on Naruto's part. Not intentionally mean obviously but it does betray his attitude toward Sakura and her role in this as opposed to his attitude to Sasuke.

    Heck, bonus reason 3) It's the end of the goddamn world if they lose. Why the hell shouldn't the old team get back together one last time? At least they can say they went out fighting together as Team 7.

    But then, that last one loosely touches on the fact that Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura don't really have... realistic relationships when you really sit down and analyse it. This is mostly because Kishimoto hasn't really prioritised that in the storytelling of the manga what with the whole plot thing happening instead.

    Anyhow, in short, I can totally see why Sakura's response is less; "Oh Naruto, please can I come with you and Sasuke and fight alongside you," and more "Fuck you and your condescension Naruto. I'm just as badass as Sasuke and I need to stop you two idiots from dying in this fight,"

    Naruto dismissed her like she was nothing and that's going to sting.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 05-24-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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  3. #4383

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    Just a little something to reiterate Sakura's badass cred...

    Pre-Shippuden Naruto = Naturally Jinchuuriki level chakra + Strongest of the split tailed beasts + Uzumaki bloodline + preternatural skill at shaping chakra once he gets used to Kurama's power + a few weeks of Sannin training + Rasengan/Kage Bunshin/Frog Summons/1 Tailed Cloak.

    Add 3 years of Sannin training and he's more or less the same, but with better Rasengans and summons as well as the ability to go to 4 tailed cloak with no control. No apparent skill at seals or knowledge of basic chakra elements or sage mode.

    Pre-Shippuden Sasuke = Uchiha genius with 3 tomoe Sharingan + 3rd form curse seal + chidori + anotably high chakra level + pretty good taijutsu and ninja tools + Katon

    Add 3 years of Sannin training and his stats get a noteable boost, but he's still mostly the same, although he's got better control of his Lightning chakra and curse seal, developed Kirin, got Kusanagi and genjutsu, and formed summons contracts with snakes and possibly hawks. None of Orochimaru's ridiculous number of techs or ninja-science knowledge.

    Pre-Shippuden Sakura = basic skills, average chakra levels, no specialties or bloodline abilities, good booksmarts for a teenaged rookie ninja and great chakra control.

    Add 3 years of Sannin training and she's basically completely unrecognizeable in the skills and abilities departments, having gained super dodging, super-punches, and enough actual medical knowledge to have medical experts even older than Tsunade practically crap themselves in awe. While her abilities aren't as useful when it comes to blowing people up from twenty miles away, there's little doubt that she got tons more actual knowledge and skills from her teacher than her teammates. They figuratively went up a few belt colors in their karate class in 3 years while she took that time to literally start and finish attending the most prestigous Medical School in the world, after which she figuratively became a tenured professor at the same school.
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  4. #4384
    God Of Tokusatsu Guy1's Avatar
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    She also whipped up the antidote to Sasori's poison in no time, IIRC.
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    the demon king rules master of read's Avatar
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    and one punched a summon. again, while not on the same level as her teammates, its still damn impressive.
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  6. #4386
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I can see where she's coming from though and her feeling marginalised is not unwarranted. Let's look at this from Sakura's perspective for a sec.

    Naruto, the somewhat dorky kid who had a crush on her in school, has become something unto a ninja messiah. He's been making a pretty good go at single handedly ending the largest ninja war ever, has unlocked hitherto impossible and highly potent abilities and has personally saved the lives of almost every person in in the shinobi alliance several times today via Kyuubi high fives. Sakura's been present for this and she thinks it's pretty rad. She's been healing some dudes, keeping people in the fight and so forth because even with Naruto bringing his A-game, they are still getting worked out here. But that's fine, she's a medic first, that's her primary job on the field right now.

    Naruto goes down through sheer exhaustion and she picks him back up again with her healing abilities and pep talks the rest of the alliance into holding together when it seemed they would falter and crumble. She's likely feeling pretty damn good about doing that, saving the life of Ninja Jesus and keeping the army together when faced with an Eldritch Demon Monster from the dawn of the world. Well done her.

    Then Sasuke shows up. Sasuke, who is a missing nin, she and Naruto's ex-partner and something of a problem child. She heals up Naruto fully and he decides that he's going to fight alongside Sasuke and defeat the Jyuubi in the apparent cage match setting created by the Hokages. He turns around to her, the highly talented ninja who just saved his arse, and effectively says; "Yo, nice going with the healing and all. You can go back to the sidelines now because you're not needed in this fight,"
    Confidence..... is good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    and effectively says; "Yo, nice going with the healing and all. You can go back to the sidelines now
    Right.... this is what Naruto is saying more or less.


    I'm with her so far.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    because you're not needed in this fight,"
    ..... aaaaaaand this is where she messes up, in the assumption of his motives.


    Okay, so, as you said she's a medic first.... that's her primary job.... he knows that and she knows that. So, knowing her primary function..... why would he suddenly try to take her out of her element of expertise... to go join Sasuke and himself on the front lines where she's ultimately less effective. She is of the most use to everyone on the sidelines and since that is what she has been doing this whole time until now.... I see no reason for her to expect Naruto to ask her to abandon the status quo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This is a smack to the tits for Sakura for two major reasons:
    .............
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    1) The obvious; "You don't need me? I just literally saved your life and probably the world by healing your ass. Don't imply that you don't need a good medical nin to do this because you clearly do," feeling. Naruto and Sasuke are planning to face what essentially passes for an angry god in their world. The implication that they wouldn't need a medic in this fight is a mistake on their part, one that has been proven all to graphically just previously with Naruto requiring healing to stay in the fight. Plus, it also implies that they don't think of Sakura as anything other than a mere white mage with no other skills. This isn't the case because she's been taught by a Sannin who, while being an excellent medic, is also something of a first-class asskicker and Sakura has shown to have more tricks in her book than just healing. So a slightly dickish assumption on their part.
    Sakura...... really needs to work on her assumptions. Big time.


    What she seems to have lost sight of.... is that there is a risk to reward ratio at play in all of this. Which is the reason medics generally aren't on the front lines in the first place. The fact that she restored Naruto's powers... just illustrates how important that role is. With the addition of other heavy hitters(1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th..... Sasuke?) her combat ability has become increasingly redundant, so there is all the more reason to focus on what she excels at..... specifically when it's something that most people on her side can't do for themselves.


    Does she have other skills? Sure, as did Tsunade... who is now lying in two pieces out in the middle of nowhere and Sakura isn't as powerful as she was... but that's the risk you take. I wouldn't expect Shikamaru on the front lines for the same reason.... not because he has no battle prowess but because his intellect is more valuable in coordinating the prowess of others. Everyone has strengths and weakness so..... play to your strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    2) Neither Naruto or Sakura have any real idea of what Sasuke's capabilities are right now. They know he was strong when they met at Orochimaru's old base, they know he made a spirited attempt at killing the Kages which ended up with him getting his ass kicked and that he failed at bringing down a Jinchuriki when he went after Bee with a squad of experimental ninja he handpicked himself. This means, as far as they know, Sasuke is significantly weaker than people who have already had the snot beaten out of them by Madara/Jyuubi which would make Sasuke about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. And yet, Naruto is all like; "Oh hey Sasuke, I'm totally sure you're competent enough to survive against an immortal zombie ninja god and his steroid abusing pokemon despite all the evidence I have at my disposal suggesting otherwise. Let's do this," without a second thought while also dismissing Sakura at the same time. Again, a pretty dickish move on Naruto's part. Not intentionally mean obviously but it does betray his attitude toward Sakura and her role in this as opposed to his attitude to Sasuke.
    Even with limited knowledge..... I'd still say that places him as superior to Sakura in actual combat. She is rather... limited.


    Moreover, unlike Sakura, aside from going to the front lines he has no other way to contribute to the victory.... as he is a ninja who specializes in combat.


    I suppose Naruto could have told Sakura to rest and just kind of....... ignored Sasuke. But that would have been..... strange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Heck, bonus reason 3) It's the end of the goddamn world if they lose. Why the hell shouldn't the old team get back together one last time? At least they can say they went out fighting together as Team 7.
    That's true, desperation can fill people with the urge to throw everything but the kitchen sink, still.... strategy has helped keep them alive so far.... and with the Hokage's showing up to do some of the heavy lifting... it kind of gives them a chance to breathe again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    But then, that last one loosely touches on the fact that Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura don't really have... realistic relationships when you really sit down and analyse it. This is mostly because Kishimoto hasn't really prioritised that in the storytelling of the manga what with the whole plot thing happening instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Anyhow, in short, I can totally see why Sakura's response is less; "Oh Naruto, please can I come with you and Sasuke and fight alongside you," and more "Fuck you and your condescension Naruto. I'm just as badass as Sasuke and I need to stop you two idiots from dying in this fight,"

    Naruto dismissed her like she was nothing and that's going to sting.
    Meh... she's just assuming sinister motives for no reason. Save being offended for when someone actually wrongs you.
    Last edited by Holy Spirit; 05-25-2013 at 11:56 AM.

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    Er, Tsunade worked hard to get medic ninja front-line capable and a standard part of Konoha's 3-nin teams.

    Also, Naru/Sasu-league or not Sakura is one of the most powerful ninja in the world and possibly the single strongest active healer on the planet, who was the main firepower against a member of Akatsuki. BEFORE getting her stats boosted and a powerful defensive cloak by high fiving Naruto (something that Sasuke probably won't do right off the bat). And again, she's the only healer among the three and everyone would have already been doomed if she wasn't around to patch up Naruto's exhausted self. Seriously, you don't fight the final boss without a white mage, especially if they have significant ranks in Ninja.

    Also, Shikamaru is always on the front lines, and he's pretty much always awesome, and the first four Hokage are busy holding up that barrier, so they won't be fighting right now.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 05-25-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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  8. #4388
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Er, Tsunade worked hard to get medic ninja front-line capable and a standard part of Konoha's 3-nin teams.
    ......

    During the Zetsu wars... Sakura and other healers were in medical tents. If they are going to separate able-bodied combat ready warriors from all the other able-bodied combat ready warriors when they are in need of as much manpower to fight the enemy army as possible...... I'd like to think they did so because they felt it would be the most effective use of their people.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Also, Naru/Sasu-league or not Sakura is one of the most powerful ninja in the world and possibly the single strongest active healer on the planet, who was the main firepower against a member of Akatsuki. BEFORE getting her stats boosted and a powerful defensive cloak by high fiving Naruto (something that Sasuke probably won't do right off the bat). And again, she's the only healer among the three and everyone would have already been doomed if she wasn't around to patch up Naruto's exhausted self. Seriously, you don't fight the final boss without a white mage, especially if they have significant ranks in Ninja.
    Sakura.... is the one who brought up comparing herself to them. Specifically in the realm of combat, she's not talking about healing.


    She didn't say "Hey, Naruto I'm the only healer! You'll need me! I'm coming too!"


    She didn't say "I'm skilled and powerful! You'll need me!"


    She said "...... Do you think I'm just a weak woman who can't compete with you? Tsunade trains her disciples as good as the other sannin..."



    She equates not being able to compete with them in combat to being a weak woman. She is wrong..... on both counts.


    She can not compete with her teammates in combat and not being able to do so does not make her a weak woman. The question is set up in such a way that to not invite her into combat is automatically insulting to both her ability to fight and her as a woman with absolutely no regard for any other factors.

    She fancies Team 7 as the Sannin 2.0 but Sakura is not Tsunade, Naruto is not Jirayia, and Sasuke is not Orochimaru. Those two are a lot closer to being the Hashirama and Madara of their generation and there is no shame in not being able to compete with that in battle.



    She wants to be included in the group and decided to play the gender card to have her way, when all she had to do was ask. Or just say "I'm coming too!" if a woman asking is not assertive enough for people's taste.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Also, Shikamaru is always on the front lines, and he's pretty much always awesome, and the first four Hokage are busy holding up that barrier, so they won't be fighting right now.
    He's on the front lines... doing what? I'm speaking of the front lines in relation to actual combat, he's not directly combating the Ten tails is what I'm saying.

    Not because he's incapable of doing so but because his talents are better served in other ways. Winning is the primary goal so.... yeah. Otherwise you may as well have Naruto come up with the strategy and Shikamaru leading the charge. They're both capable of it, not as effective.... but capable.

    It's the same rational for placing Shikamaru's father miles away from the battle.

  9. #4389
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    So, essentially, what you're saying is that Sakura is making a mountain of a molehill when Naruto casually marginalises her?

    You should probably be careful amongst more volatile feminists. This kind of casual dismissal of objections derived from gender roles can people quite annoyed.

    As I said, I can totally see why Sakura is pissed at being ignored. I hope her secret technique is suitably badass.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 05-26-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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    Honestly, she seems more mildly annoyed and joking before joining the idiots that were trying to fight Godmon without a healer.

    And Sakura and the chief healers were in the tents because Sakura was in charge of healing the worst injuries since she was the best healer available that wasn't coordinating their forces with the rest of the living Kage. Ino is her team's healer and she was on the front lines fighting Zetsu clones and reanimated Jounin along with Shikamaru, which is where all the other non-Sakura healers in the rookie nine were.

    And now they're fighting Jyuubi which means that the front line is being pretty much anywhere on the continent/planet, as Shikamaru's aforementioned father found out. Shikamaru was right up there with everyone else binding Jyuubi for a short period and birding it up with Naruto and company. Sakura was in the thick of battle healing people, getting Naruto back on his feet and peptalking everyone, and right now, there is absolutely nothing more important to the war that she could possibly do besides making sure that Naruto (and probably Sasuke, I guess) remains in one piece for as long as possible.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 05-26-2013 at 07:42 AM.
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  12. #4392
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    Quote Originally Posted by algeya View Post

    She is yamcha
    I don't know what this "Yamcha" is, but it sounds just like Raditz.

  13. #4393
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    Quote Originally Posted by algeya View Post

    She is yamcha
    Nah, she isn't Yamcha.

    She's Krillin, which is a step above Chaotzu, which in turn is a step above Yamcha. But she isn't Piccolo, which is a step above Tien, which is a step above Krillin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    Nah, she isn't Yamcha.

    She's Krillin, which is a step above Chaotzu, which in turn is a step above Yamcha. But she isn't Piccolo, which is a step above Tien, which is a step above Krillin.
    i'd count Krillin as a step above Tien. Tien's stronger, but Krillin stays relevent longer XD

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