Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Transient Guest]

The funny thing is that people always seem to forget that Kamina, before he died, told Simon to stop beliving in the Simon that Kamina believed in. That he should instead believe in the Simon that he actually is.

Because he knew that he was a just a man who was going to die sooner or later, sooner in this case, and that it would do no good for Simon to put Kamina on a pedistal in the long. He needed to actually gain some self-confidence and grow up. First step, believe in himself and not his idolised best friend.

...I think

But. If you can't generate Kamina levels of confidence yourself, base Simon, then having him around to be a shining example of that ideal manly man badass can lead you that way, end of series Simon.

It's the magic feather principal yes, but the feather still serves a purpose.

......More or less.

[1505627]

But. If you can't generate Kamina levels of confidence yourself, base Simon, then having him around to be a shining example of that ideal manly man badass can lead you that way, end of series Simon.

It's the magic feather principal yes, but the feather still serves a purpose.

......More or less.

this is only tangentially related, but according to word of god, had kamina lived he'd of had the least spiral power of the entire dai gurren dan

[Kamina]

Nah, i think Madara's sheer smugness would have got him killed in the kage fight

EDIT: It's possible, but if he was back at full strength without super-regeneration, he'd still be able to no-sell Rasenshurikens and Onoki's Dust Release attacks with the Rinnegan. If Tsunade and A managed to strike and injure him, then Madara would resort to using Susano'o. But then again, Madara's not the kind of opponent who would let himself get injured by those two.

That was an incomplete Susano'o, though I dunno that his full one has a quantifiable durability feat yet.

No selling a bijuu dama from Kyuubi to the face.

And that was before the chakra was stabilized into that samurai mecha form...

[Dark Soul # 7]

It's possible, but if he was back at full strength without super-regeneration, he'd still be able to no-sell Rasenshurikens and Onoki's Dust Release attacks. If Tsunade and A managed to strike and injure him, that would just bring in Susano'o, but then again, Madara's not the kind of opponent who would let himself get injured by those two.

The rasenshuriken he can probably tank just fine with his perfect susanno'o. But Onoki's dust might just cut through, they'd need to make it really big for it to matter though. And any way Madara could just absorb either one.

And that was before the chakra was stabilized into that samurai mecha form...

I'm thinking that the stablisation doesn't make it any stronger. It just gives it a more stable form so that it can be operated more effectively without being attached to anything while the version in the picture is used to wrap it around stuff, like the giant monster fox.

[Nik Hasta]

Because fiction can be both a mirror for reflection and a venue of escape in regards to reality. Sometimes it is nice to have a flawed character because when they feel pain and show it our empathy is spiked and we appreciate that reaction because that is how WE would feel if a best friend just took a crit from a splinter and died. Their pain is our pain and when they find the fortitude to carry on we remember that the next time we need to carry on. I mean if freakin' Luffy can come back from what he's been through I can make a got-damn effort my damn self.

Yet it's also fun and cathartic to have Super Badasses that can cry on the inside while the outside, as the ancient Romans used to say, "unleashes hell."
.............I really hate it when ancient mythology movies have the "unleash hell" line.
Anyways, the crazy unbreakable hero has it's own appeal because it's not only something we can look up to and aspire to be, it can be empowering in and of it's own self to see someone handle everything life and the world has to throw at them and just keep on trucking. That will isn't something most of us can relate to and the by-proxy sense of confidence they instill in us can help us MAKE GIANT DRILLS.

Because we don't have to believe in ourselves, we can believe in the selves that HE believes in.

.......I think.

No, I know what you mean, I can see the appeal of "perfect," heroes.

Heck, I love Fist of the North Star and Kenshiro is like the gold standard of "Getting shit done in the face of tragedy with most stoic face imaginable," but then he's a much more complex character than just "stoic doer of things," so it's not really a fair comparison. Okay, better example; Kongou Banchou. I like Kongou Banchou but he hasn't changed or really evolved at all since the start of the story and he never wavers or has major doubts about his actions beyond his coming to understand the true nature of the Kongou Clan and what that could mean to his friends.

What I object to most is Dog trying to present something other than perfect functional stoicism as something wrong with the character that needs to be fixed to improve the narrative overall. I mean, there's different readings there's just... infantile readings. And, since this is public forum, if he's going to air his views then I'm going to rebutt them.

In short; to me, characters who don't require anyone else are generally dull because it's a character's relationships and how they interact with the world that make them interesting.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I give that scene a bit of an asterix since A) the attack was caught by a Mokuton which heavily drains Kyuubi's chakra, B) it seemed to leave more rubble than normal for a bijuu dama, and C) Hashirama himself was completely unharmed and smirking despite also being engulfed in the attack while standingout in the open while his later reaction seemed to take it much more seriously.

[Fast]

Look at the Kage's that tried to do stuff alone, with head on power and skill, being all badass:
Gaara beat and captured by Deidara.

technnically not being alone is what caused Gaara to lose since trying to protect the village from being nuked is what screwed him over. Deidara also didn't bring as much clay as he could have so who knows who would've won that one anyway but having more people did not help Gaara at all in that fight.

[Hazard]

I give that scene a bit of an asterix since A) the attack was caught by a Mokuton which heavily drains Kyuubi's chakra, B) it seemed to leave more rubble than normal for a bijuu dama, and C) Hashirama himself was completely unharmed and smirking despite also being engulfed in the attack while standingout in the open while his later reaction seemed to take it much more seriously.

Hashirama grabbed the attack and smashed his face in it. The attack blew up which is what Bijuu Dama do; so not seeing anything worth remarking here as a negative. If anything it is cooler because the way it was done means most of the explosion went to Susanoo's face.

Hashirama was inside his wood lion/thing. He is shown getting out of it once the blast fades.

[The Transient Guest]

technnically not being alone is what caused Gaara to lose since trying to protect the village from being nuked is what screwed him over. Deidara also didn't bring as much clay as he could have so who knows who would've won that one anyway but having more people did not help Gaara at all in that fight.

While technically true I can counter with the idea that Gaara trying to protect a village alone lost while Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, and some fodder jonin to show off how powerful Deidara was could have gone the other way.

[Fast]

While technically true I can counter with the idea that Gaara trying to protect a village alone lost while Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, and some fodder jonin to show off how powerful Deidara was could have gone the other way.

They couldn't help out because it was an air battle not because he told everyone to back off. I think they even tried but were so ineffective they stopped (that might be anime only or my imagination)

[The Transient Guest]

Alright, let me back up and put it this way.

While it might be circumstances and not choice that limited the team tactics that Gaara was able to employ that does not change the base notion being discussed that Temari could have distracted DiDi at a crucial point giving Gaara the victory.

[The Transient Guest]

I'm gonna TL:DR the rest of the discussion down to what I think everyone should be able to agree with.

That being:

While it's certainly possible that sometimes having a partner in a fight can be a detriment, Itachi only getting hit by Kabutomaru because he was saving Sasuke, it's just as if not more likely that having backup can be a great asset, Naruto's multiple victories via it being team minded being the clear example.
Conversely having multiple opponents against one means that they have to limit their area of effect for friendly fire and that teammates make for nifty distractions, Kabuto and company again.

[Nik Hasta]

I'm gonna TL:DR the rest of the discussion down to what I think everyone should be able to agree with.

That being:

While it's certainly possible that sometimes having a partner in a fight can be a detriment, Itachi only getting hit by Kabutomaru because he was saving Sasuke, it's just as if not more likely that having backup can be a great asset, Naruto's multiple victories via it being team minded being the clear example.
Conversely having multiple opponents against one means that they have to limit their area of effect for friendly fire and that teammates make for nifty distractions, Kabuto and company again.

I was more talking about Naruto's investment in the war and how it's a good thing that we're seeing how it's emotionally effecting him rather than it making him look weakminded as Dog was purporting but your point is good too.

Heck, I'm more in favour of team fights and the like because it makes for more interesting choreography. Look at the Ino-Shika-Chou versus Edo Asuma, that was a great fight.

[Fast]

I wasn't actually disagreeing with your main point Transient since I actually love team fights or FFA fights in general and sadly this is shonen so most of them come down to 1v1. Or the team gets stomped due to conservation of ninja, etc.

I was merely pointing out that one of your examples didn't really work for you. If you want a better example for your point use Kakashi vs Zabuza and how Naruto and Sasuke saved him after Zabuza caught Kakashi off guard and got him trapped. He was smart they were to to fight alone since they were outclassed at the time by the jonin but having a team and teamwork saved his hide enough for them to tag back out and everyone survived.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Caught up with the anime.

It was nice to see the kage fights animated. The speed exchange between Naruto and the fourth Raikage was especially welldone and they pulled off the Gaara/second Mizukage duel off nicely for its oddness. Matsuri and her buddy provided some good filler comic relief.

So next week we the zombie sound four filler and from the preview it seems like they've once again gone and made the filler material better animated than the canon stuff. Which is odd and annoying. Shouldn't they save the animation budget for the giant battles they're getting so close to?