Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Nik Hasta]

Okay. This is going to be fun.

As a proviso to Siriel, I am going to do my level best to remain at least somewhat civil here. If I go to far, feel free to tell me to shut up and consider it dropped.

*Cracks knuckles*

I'm the one who needs to, how did you put it, "Grow the ass up", and yet you're the one slinging insults around like an immature child.

Yeah, you are the one who needs to grow his ass up. That's why I said it.

I mean, I know you have problems understanding Naruto but I would have thought a simple sentiment like that would have been easy for you to grasp.

And Shikamaru just had Shikaku, his father, and Inoichi, a man he's known his entire life and who could be seen as an uncle to him, blown the fuck up. And what did he do? He realized he was a battle and manned the fuck up on his own. He saw that now was not the time to allow his emotions get the better of him, that he had to put those aside until after the giant world-ending threat is taken care of and THEN he can mourn his losses.

Equating someone's loved one being killed instantly on the other side of the world to someone literally dying in your arms to protect you.

Good start.

We'll get into this more below...

Same for Hinata, who had just lost her cousin, someone she's known and loved her entire life, yet managed to keep herself together and not break down emotionally. She, like Naruto, watched Neji die in front of her, stabbed with giant wooden stakes as he protected her, and she didn't fall apart. She kept herself together watching someone who was a brother to her die and kept together because she knew she was in a battle and now wasn't the time.

Naruto, however, broke down on the spot. Again. Just like every other time he's been hit with difficult news. And he wants to be Hokage. He wants to be the leader everyone looks to for strength, and he breaks down every time something goes wrong.

But unlike the previous times, he did it during a massive battle where the lives of not only his future soldiers, but the lives of everyone in their world is on the line. He wants to be the leader of a military organization and he can't handle the fact that people, even those close to him, are going to die and breaks down when it happens, even when he's in the middle of a battle.

You're also casually omitting the fact that Obito specifically targeted Naruto to tear down his psychological defences. Naruto previously, running hot from just essentially ending the war and saving the lives of basically everyone and Jinchuuriki all by himself, had said; "I'm not going to let you kill my friends," And he meant it. He also had the power to back it up.

Obito uses this against him and throws his failure in his face. Naruto is now confronted by the fact that even with all his ridiculous power, even with Kurama 100% in sync with him and even with all his friends and allies working in conjunction, it still wasn't enough and still people are dying and Neji died, specifically to protect him.

No one else has that level of power or that level of assumed responsibility in this war. It's real for everyone, sure. But they have all accepted that people are going to die in this fight because they know they are facing powers far beyond their own. Conversely, Naruto is arguably the third most powerful being on the entire planet behind the Jyuubi itself, Madara and Hashirama and, for all his power, he still failed.

That is a big psychological blow to Naruto. It is a blow bigger to him than it would have been to anyone else. Shikamaru lost his father, Ino lost her father. Sure, that's tragic but what could they have done to prevent it? They are faced with Immortal Zombie Ninja Jesus, an extremely powerful Ninja Terrorist who is personally responsible for this entire war, their village being destroyed and the murder of one of the greatest ninjas of their time and an eldritch super kaiju who can nuke entire cities from across continents. They have no sense of personal responsibility because they know they are way out of their league with these guys.

Whereas Naruto?

Naruto is in their league. He is the last, best and only hope for the ninja alliance. He is the son of the Fourth Hokage and the Jinchuuriki of the second most powerful Bijuu. As stated earlier, the number of people more powerful than him right now can be counted on one hand. He has done amazing things recently and become more powerful than he thought possible and, despite that, still he was unable to stop his friend from having to die to protect him. For all his power, he is still lacking the power to make good on his promises.

That is a big hit to him, especially considering how much weight Naruto puts into his promises.

Yes, Hinata lost her cousin/brother figure. But, she didn't promise to save everyone and actually meant it, she knew she didn't have a chance of doing that. Heck, when Neji died she was doing the exact same thing; trying to protect Naruto. She was doing the only thing she could do in that situation - throwing her life away to protect the last hope of the world. It's sad for her but she feels exactly the same way as Neji did because she was doing the exact same thing as him.

I know you apparently live in "Amazing Dog Land," where heroes are perfect paragons of virtue and determination who never fail and never, not even for one second, doubt themselves but guess what? Kishimoto is actually examining deeper emotional themes than; "OOOOAAA IMMA SMASH THE BAD GUY!" and Naruto is going to doubt himself as he grows as a person. Sure, it's not an optimal time for it but, amazingly, in the middle of highly stressful situation (like a war for example) were incredibly tragic things happen (say, witnessing the death of a close friend as he dies to protect you) that's going to make emotions happen.

In short, to paraphrase Uncle Ben; with great power comes great responsibility and that responsibility isn't a easy burden to bear.

Do you understand what I am saying here?

And you're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything remotely like that. I said he required Hinata to slap some sense into him because she was the one who did it. If Shikamaru had been the one to slap him, the I'd have said "and required Shikamaru to slap some sense into him". But I didn't, because it wasn't Shikamaru. Or Rock Lee. Or Ino. Or Sakura. Or anyone else. It was Hinata who did it. Thus I said he required Hinata to snap him out of it.

It's how I read it and this discussion is all about interpretation.

In fairness, maybe the jab at your gender politics was little close to the bone but, eh, I don't like you very much.

Physically? No. Physically he's strong, even if we never get a chance to see him handle a battle without needing to be rescued at least once by someone else.

Psychologically? Oh Hell yes. He's got the emotional strength of a house of cards, and he's supposed to be our hero. He's supposed to be the one the other heroes rally behind and see as a pillar of strength, yet it seems every time he gets faced with a difficult situation, he crumbles.

This just shows the immaturity of your reading of this manga.

According to you; if someone has doubts for entirely valid reasons given the relative stress and emotional pain inherent in the situation, then they are weak and not worthy to be a hero.

But then, I can see your point; why on earth would you want a three dimensional character who has doubts, who is flawed and who isn't perfect when you could have Johnny McSelf-Belief who powers through and saves the day regardless of any loss on the way?

In short, I strongly advise to try and be more mature in your reading of the manga. You're coming across as pretty immature in your understanding of the story.

EDIT: All in all, pretty civil. I am proud of myself for not being overtly rude.

[Nik Hasta]

Or, for a concise gif version:

Naruto:

[The Drunkard Kid]

I don't know that Edo Madara and Hashirama are objectively more powerful than Naruto so much as Naruto/Kyuubi being super vulnerable to the Sharingan and Mokuton. Obito is arguably more dangerous since Naruto can't affect him at all without help from Kakashi, and he seems to be the one that's primarily controlling Jyuubi (not to mention that he was the one that summoned Gedo Maza and had six Jinchuuriki as his Pain bodies.

[1505627]

I don't know that Edo Madara and Hashirama are objectively more powerful than Naruto so much as Naruto/Kyuubi being super vulnerable to the Sharingan and Mokuton. Obito is arguably more dangerous since Naruto can't affect him at all without help from Kakashi, and he seems to be the one that's primarily controlling Jyuubi (not to mention that he was the one that summoned Gedo Maza and had six Jinchuuriki as his Pain bodies.

for the record, edo madara ould already be dead without the edo tensei regen

[Hazard]

It must be, because all I'm seeing in your quote of me are "Naruto" and "Static".

But I'm gonna have to call your reading comprehension into suspect, because the way I wrote it obviously meant the character whose named "Naruto" was static, not the manga as a whole that is also called "Naruto" was static.

See, because while "characters" such as Hinata, Neji, and Gaara are growing and changing, the "character" Naruto has pretty much stayed still.

And that's what I'm calling you out on. I thought the context your post provided would have made it clear enough.

Would you have understood better if I put '(character)' right next to Naruto?

[Holy Spirit]

So... any opinions on what Sasuke's decision will be after his talk with the 1st?

[HollowKyubi Espada]

So... any opinions on what Sasuke's decision will be after his talk with the 1st?

He might start to decide not to destroy the village but then either Sarutobi or Minato will reveal something that will set him back to square one. Hell it'll probably be Tobirama that screws up since he is/was proto-Danzo.

[Kamina]

for the record, edo madara ould already be dead without the edo tensei regen

Lee wouldn't have landed that blow if Madara were the slightest bit concerned about it. If he didn't have Edo Tensei, he'd be abusing Susano'o more, and Lee's attack would have bounced off like a pebble striking a tree.

[HollowKyubi Espada]

Eh you don't know that since both A and Tsunade have managed to break through Susanoo before, until we know how much more amped up Lee's strength is with K1 shroud, it's up in the air.

[1505627]

Lee wouldn't have landed that blow if Madara were the slightest bit concerned about it. If he didn't have Edo Tensei, he'd be abusing Susano'o more, and Lee's attack would have bounced off like a pebble striking a tree.

Nah, i think Madara's sheer smugness would have got him killed in the kage fight

So... any opinions on what Sasuke's decision will be after his talk with the 1st?

whatever it is , it'll make him naruto's enemy

[The Drunkard Kid]

Eh you don't know that since both A and Tsunade have managed to break through Susanoo before, until we know how much more amped up Lee's strength is with K1 shroud, it's up in the air.

That was an incomplete Susano'o, though I dunno that his full one has a quantifiable durability feat yet.

[Hazard]

Nah, i think Madara's sheer smugness would have got him killed in the kage fight

Not really. With Edo up the guy outright admitted he let hit him, like in Oonoki's case.

Without edo tensei (or other reasons for him to play around like his upcoming resurrection via Tobi), Madara would have actually treated the fight with a degree of seriousness.

That was an incomplete Susano'o, though I dunno that his full one has a quantifiable durability feat yet.

No selling a bijuu dama from Kyuubi to the face.

[The Transient Guest]

The insipid part of my brain that enjoys arguing from both sides is going crazy right now with the whole Dog thing. My post back when this first started was actually me trying to make sure I had Dog's motivations correct but then I found myself typing out "No Kurama" and I just couldn't stop the silly from coming out.

I do see his point, I think. A Kage is supposed to be the ninja of a village. The person that their people aspire to be. It's not just a title or position, it's an ideal. A the ideal is to be, well, ideal. A Kage is supposed to be the one that can swoop in to save the day should the need arise because a Kage is powerful, brave, intelligent, and full of heroic willpower and resolve.
A Kage shouldn't require only the slightest respite to deal with emotional or physical trauma. Look at Tsunade. When we found out the Kage's were......Not Good ( how many times am I gonna get to reference that? ) we saw her cut in half by a fallen tree. Her reaction was "oh shit better start fixing other people."
And we don't get that from Naruto. Not on the levels that someone aspiring to be the ideal at least.
Which has been as aspect of his character from the start. So he hasn't grown.


Okay....I think I got that. We'll find out later.


To begin discussing the converse of that I'll reference that it is true that Naruto has been an emotional character from the get go. But you can psychologically and sociologically explain that away with his lack of a nuturing family environment ( and you know.....ANY family at all ) not properly equipping him emotionally for great stresses like these.
Which is fine and all but at the same time it has always been Naruto's emotions that makes him so effective in on aspect of the Kage manner. The ability to get others to follow you.
Naruto has always been a different sort than the established Kage's because he has to be. He isn't representing the old ideal of the Ideal Super Ninja ( even though as noted he's currently crazy top tier ) he's representing the new ideal for a Kage, a ninja, a person.

Look at the Kage's that tried to do stuff alone, with head on power and skill, being all badass:
Gaara beat and captured by Deidara.
A against Sasuke cost him an arm with more limbs to follow if he hadn't been pulled away by Gaara.
Sasuke himself is arguably Kage level and he tried to solo ALL the Kage's. Dude went out of his away to separate himself from his team and he got nearly melted for his troubles.
Danzou tried to break the mold in his own way and had his two lackeys with him. Until the even more savvy Tobito used his first move to leave Danny there alone.
Tobirama himself went solo and died.

Naruto, who fosters bonds and supports, has by contrast garnered a decent win / loss even if you want to put a * next to it that notes Hinata got Pain off his ass long enough to get stabbed and bring out some extra tails that's fine. He still ended up the victor and in a life and death fight I'm sorry but having help is awesome.

So part of why that particular aspect of Naruto's character which you've focused in on so hard hasn't drastically been altered is because that aspect is the core of the new non-genjutsu World that is trying to be made.

.....Ya know?

[The Transient Guest]

I came back to edit in a line about "all the power in the world being useless if you're frozen too long to use it" or something along that sentiment when I noticed this:

But then, I can see your point; why on earth would you want a three dimensional character who has doubts, who is flawed and who isn't perfect when you could have Johnny McSelf-Belief who powers through and saves the day regardless of any loss on the way?

Because fiction can be both a mirror for reflection and a venue of escape in regards to reality. Sometimes it is nice to have a flawed character because when they feel pain and show it our empathy is spiked and we appreciate that reaction because that is how WE would feel if a best friend just took a crit from a splinter and died. Their pain is our pain and when they find the fortitude to carry on we remember that the next time we need to carry on. I mean if freakin' Luffy can come back from what he's been through I can make a got-damn effort my damn self.

Yet it's also fun and cathartic to have Super Badasses that can cry on the inside while the outside, as the ancient Romans used to say, "unleashes hell."
.............I really hate it when ancient mythology movies have the "unleash hell" line.
Anyways, the crazy unbreakable hero has it's own appeal because it's not only something we can look up to and aspire to be, it can be empowering in and of it's own self to see someone handle everything life and the world has to throw at them and just keep on trucking. That will isn't something most of us can relate to and the by-proxy sense of confidence they instill in us can help us MAKE GIANT DRILLS.

Because we don't have to believe in ourselves, we can believe in the selves that HE believes in.

.......I think.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Anyways, the crazy unbreakable hero has it's own appeal because it's not only something we can look up to and aspire to be, it can be empowering in and of it's own self to see someone handle everything life and the world has to throw at them and just keep on trucking. That will isn't something most of us can relate to and the by-proxy sense of confidence they instill in us can help us MAKE GIANT DRILLS.

Because we don't have to believe in ourselves, we can believe in the selves that HE believes in.

.......I think.

The funny thing is that people always seem to forget that Kamina, before he died, told Simon to stop beliving in the Simon that Kamina believed in. That he should instead believe in the Simon that he actually is.

Because he knew that he was a just a man who was going to die sooner or later, sooner in this case, and that it would do no good for Simon to put Kamina on a pedistal in the long. He needed to actually gain some self-confidence and grow up. First step, believe in himself and not his idolised best friend.

...I think