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  1. #3796
    CBR Dark Tourny Master Robotech Master's Avatar
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    Actually I don't completely agree with you there Pong. Talking about bonds and shit is one thing, but actually forging the bonds leads to a whole lot of other things. You'll never lead to a 100% peaceful world, but creating a future where the different villages acknowledge a desire to be allies and friends with one another goes a long way towards changing a world where children grew up being *told* that hating the other villages was the right thing to do. That's really the only change Naruto ever has to help with to succeed in my eyes.
    "It's your parting gift. In that it will part you; part of you over here, part of you over there, part of you way over there, staining the wall!" Lord Shen

  2. #3797
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    part of me wishes that Madara would sound like Master Shake from Aqua Teen HUnger force..... because the way he says "you suuuckk!" is pretty awesome. I guess it's too late to have Obito sound like Meatwad, isn't? "you sicken me with your lies! you insult what little intelligence I actually have."

  3. #3798
    Lest We Forget The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    part of me wishes that Madara would sound like Master Shake from Aqua Teen HUnger force..... because the way he says "you suuuckk!" is pretty awesome. I guess it's too late to have Obito sound like Meatwad, isn't? "you sicken me with your lies! you insult what little intelligence I actually have."
    Actually, have Tobirama sound like Master Shake, Hashirama sound like Frylock, Minato sound like Meatwad, and Hiruzen sound like Carl.

    Then we can have Madara and Obito sound like Ignignokt and Err respectively.
    "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

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  4. #3799
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1505627 View Post
    naruto doesn't wanna keep the world the same though
    Pretty much. They both want to change the world. Difference is Madara has given up on it. Naruto hasn't. And let's face it Ninja can be so much more. I mean just imagine all the good medic nin alone can actually do in society. In a society that hasn't progressed beyond VCR medic nins toss around words like 'Cell ratio' and rebuild organs from a piece of hair. The possibilities are awesome.

    But the first step to all of that is getting the ninja world to say 'Yeah, this whole killing and war thing isn't really the best thing to do'.

  5. #3800
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    Actually, have Tobirama sound like Master Shake, Hashirama sound like Frylock, Minato sound like Meatwad, and Hiruzen sound like Carl.

    Then we can have Madara and Obito sound like Ignignokt and Err respectively.
    wow, I forgot about the Mooninites-- good call.

  6. #3801
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1505627 View Post
    naruto doesn't wanna keep the world the same though
    Unless he is going to exterminate all the Uchiha, he can't change the laws of the world to prevent the Uchiha from gaining a Sharingan through pain and suffering. Naruto can at best change how humans behave through his example or forging bonds but the laws/psyshics of the world remain unchanged. If for example, an Uchiha's parents died by say drowning in a river, wouldn't the Shanringan still be like "Hey buddy, your parents dying sucks but now you got me so cheer up."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Pretty much. They both want to change the world. Difference is Madara has given up on it. Naruto hasn't. And let's face it Ninja can be so much more. I mean just imagine all the good medic nin alone can actually do in society. In a society that hasn't progressed beyond VCR medic nins toss around words like 'Cell ratio' and rebuild organs from a piece of hair. The possibilities are awesome.

    But the first step to all of that is getting the ninja world to say 'Yeah, this whole killing and war thing isn't really the best thing to do'.
    Again, what you are proposing here is changing hearts and minds. I don't think Madara and Obito's beef is with humans entirely. They have a more fundamental disagreement with God for setting up a world where absent human greed and depravity, the world would still reward their sufferring. As long as a Uchiha lives, they have to carry that gift and curse no matter what hence why Tobirama called them a cursed clan. It isn't humans that hate them so much as the world/God hates them, lol. Well in so much as you view getting the Sharingan as a curse.
    Last edited by remydat; 02-24-2013 at 07:27 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  7. #3802
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    They have a more fundamental disagreement with God for setting up a world where absent human greed and depravity, the world would still reward their sufferring.
    Meh, they are lame that way.

    Honeslty I'm like 90% sure Sharingan mechanics are going to end up being Juubi's fault.

  8. #3803
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Meh, they are lame that way.

    Honeslty I'm like 90% sure Sharingan mechanics are going to end up being Juubi's fault.
    Well maybe that is how the war gets resolved. Naruto figures out the Juubi can be used to end the Uchiha's emo-ness creating the Sharingan and Madara and Obito are thankful because the world isn't picking on them anymore. Until then they are like, "fuck it, this world is going down."
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  9. #3804
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    But the first step to all of that is getting the ninja world to say 'Yeah, this whole killing and war thing isn't really the best thing to do'.
    If that's so then... I understand where Madara's coming from. Better than Naruto really.


    After thousands of years of civilization..... we can't even get our world to say that. In the Naruto world with an Uchiha brain........ yeah.

  10. #3805
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Then again... it's not like the Uchiha have to be ninja in the first place. If you don't want suffering.... stay out of the game. Be a fisherman or something.

  11. #3806
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    If that's so then... I understand where Madara's coming from. Better than Naruto really.

    After thousands of years of civilization..... we can't even get our world to say that. In the Naruto world with an Uchiha brain........ yeah.
    A rather major difference between our world and is size and development of countries.

    The Naruto world seems to be kind of small compared to ours and thus all the nations and villages have some connection to one another and affect one another in a way that's different compared to here. Here there more countries and many of them are seperated by the ocean or the rest of the world whereas the Naruto world seems to be one big continent.

    And the development of technology and politics are basically the same in most of the Naruto world. In our you've got monarchies, democracies, republics, dictatorships and more, hell a lot of countries are still working out what kind states they're going to be, and how the progress of technology can be exceedingly different all over the world.

    My point is that the world of Naruto is quite a bit more homogeneous that ours, at least that's the case for where they were when the war started, so I'm thinking that Naruto's solution has a stronger likelihood of working there.

  12. #3807
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Also, I'm still not a fan of the whole "the sharingan makes the Uchiha crazy"-thing.

    It just seems like an easy way to shift the blame away from them.

  13. #3808
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Also, I'm still not a fan of the whole "the sharingan makes the Uchiha crazy"-thing.
    It's not. The thing that makes them more prone to becoming crazy is their brain chemistry, they just also happen to have the ability to use the Sharingan, which once it awakens leads to their unstable mental state (since they need to be unstable to awaken it) to go into a loop of "Crazy = Power = Crazy".

    So it's more that the Sharingan gives the Uchiha a reason to stay crazy once they go crazy, rather than it making them go crazy to begin with.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  14. #3809
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    Then again... it's not like the Uchiha have to be ninja in the first place. If you don't want suffering.... stay out of the game. Be a fisherman or something.
    That's not an option due to the Prisoner's Dilemma applying to everyone who has the capacity to become a ninja.

    "If everyone, including me, is a ninja, then nobody is really safe but we can defend ourselves." (Status Quo)

    "If nobody is a ninja, everybody is safer." (Slightly better than status quo)

    "But if nobody is a ninja except me, then I'm pretty much invincible." (Much better than status quo)

    "However, if someone who is not me is a ninja, and I'm not, I am in no way safe because they can kill me whenever." (Much worse than status quo)

    "Conclusion: It's better for me to be a ninja if I can, because that way I at least can defend myself if somebody else decides to become a ninja and I have a chance to be nigh-invincible if nobody else becomes a ninja."


    And that's assuming that the world would get a fresh start. As it is right now, there is literally no chance of getting that "nobody is a ninja" option because of things like Root. And tons of totally uninvolved people are dying because of ninja stuff. It's not like people who go "Well, I'm not a ninja" become invincible.

    And that logic is really nonsensical too, because it means that every single bad thing that has happened to a protagonist in this manga is justified because they "got into the game".
    "All my friends got killed and my village got nuked by a crazy lunatic!" "Should have stayed out of the game, man.".
    "My entire extended family got killed by my brother because of stupid politics!" "Should have stayed out of the game, eight-year-old kid."
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  15. #3810
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    It's not. The thing that makes them more prone to becoming crazy is their brain chemistry, they just also happen to have the ability to use the Sharingan, which once it awakens leads to their unstable mental state (since they need to be unstable to awaken it) to go into a loop of "Crazy = Power = Crazy".

    So it's more that the Sharingan gives the Uchiha a reason to stay crazy once they go crazy, rather than it making them go crazy to begin with.
    And honestly, it's been hinted here and there in the series (starting with Itachi) that the Sharingan causes mental instability. It's not something that just came out of nowhere.

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