Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Siriel]

The thing is that Madara, by this point, is seriously not someone that you can use as a standard to determine "good" and "bad" with; he's literally the most powerful dude on the planet and the second most powerful guy who ever lived. And he's probably fully aware of that himself.

So I see Madara's praise as just that - honest praise. The fact that it amounts to nothing against him doesn't diminish that it's impressive. It's not like he praises everyone just to give himself an ego boost when he beats them; he's clearly shown that when (he thinks that) someone sucks, he tells them so.

Although, I admit that I find Madara with his over-the-top boasts and constant understatements to be hilarious and probably the most enjoyable thing in this manga right now, so I might be a bit biased into seeing him in a more positive light.

[flashdisk]

As I said in chapter 497 pages 5-10, Naruto launches two massive attacks using his own chakra. On page 10, he starts winning the tug of war and pulling over Kurama's chakra. Note when Naruto starts to get infected ie the chakra changes to black, page 12 indicates the chakra is flowing in Naruto's direction. However, if you look at the top of page 14 for the first time we see part of the chakra flow take the shape of the top of Naruto's head. By the time you get to the bottom of page 14, the head of naruto is clearly visible within the chakra and you can tell the direction of the chakra has changed and is heading in Kurama's direction because the head within the chakra has the headband Naruto wears and that headband is in Naruto's direction as if the front of the head is facing Kurama and the headband is blowing in the wind at the back of his head. There is absolutely no reason for Kishi to write such a scene except to indicate that the chakra is now moving in the direction of Kurama.

Again that is precisely why his mother shows up. Naruto is losing. His attempt to pull out Kurama's chakra backfired and now Kurama is pulling back in the other direction. So when chapter 499 begins, all that has happened is Kushina has held the 9 tails down but it still was ahead in the tug of war. It is then Naruto unleashes the massive Rasengan attacks that has Kurama remark about his power. In this context, it makes perfect sense for Kurama to remark about it because he had reversed the flow of chakra and had already started taking Naruto's chakra so he was awestruck that Naruto still had enough chakra left to perform those massive attacks. So either you missed the significance of page 14 or your interpretation seems inconsistent from what is presented in the comic.

As I stated previously, it does not show Kurama reabsorbing the chakra or absorbing any of Naruto's. And the translation by binktopia has the Kyubi ask why Naruto 'is so powerful', [B]not[B] 'why is he still so powerful'. The statement may indicate anything from Kurama describing Naruto's sage art, to Kurama describing Naruto's own strength of will to overcome hatred. The latter of which I am leaning to.

As for Naruto's disappearing headband, it can be viewed 'not only as Naruto's chakra moving away', but instead the chakra which is shown to change shape in the chapter to be melding into the chord of chakra that now connected the two combatants, especially since the scene shows a gradual loss of defnition of Naruto's own chakra. In fact by 497 page 12-14 it is shown that Naruto's chakra body has disappeared into that of the 9 tails.

If Naruto had lost chakra, I'd expect that it would've been mentioned by Killerbee. Instead they were worried about Naruto succumbing to the hatred of the Kyuubi which seems to be shown as a partial Kyuubi chakra shroud envelops Naruto's real body. And the chakra shroud usually appears when the user is provided Kyuubi chakra.

In fact I've noticed 'hatred cleared' chakra umbilical that connected the Naruto and the Kyuubi is shown to even still be attached even as kagebunshin was summoned(499 page 5), which I take to mean that Naruto actually had a direct connection to the Kyubi's chakra.

And where do you get your translation. My translations never use the word absorb but rather trap. If you say your translation says absorb then provide a link and I will read it. Again trap and absorb are two different words with two different meanings. My understanding of the former is that they were trying to trap each other's chakra and until someone won definitively that chakra being pulled was indeed trapped and could not be used by either side.

I did not see what precise words you were questioning. You are basically stating that absorbing chakra is not a way of capturing chakra. It's like saying that the human body does not absorb oxygen after it has 'captured it' through its lungs, or your body does not aborb the water after it has been drunk.

Stating one does not exclude the other. So again, I have not changed the words as you have described in the previous posts. Also if Naruto had not automatically gotten use of the chakra, I doubt he would have automatically manifesed a chakra shroud on his mental body in chapter 499 page 12.

[Totoro Man]

I will say this for Madara-- he makes the over-powered half-asleep villain steamroller shtick work a lot better than Priscilla from Claymore does. Madara actually feels like a real character now-- Priscilla... not so much. when you compare him to other similarly over-powered villains in other manga he's not so bad. still want him to suffer a humiliating defeat for his arrogant douchebag behaviour-- but isn't that what most villains are for?

[remydat]

Ok, first Killer Bee would not need to mention that naruto was losing chakra when he defined the battle up front. Chapter 496 pages 1-3 establish that this is a purification ceremony and that if you have darkness in your heart you will lose your head like the statues in the temple. Then Bee explains exactly how that purification ceremony works.

Chapter 496 page 15-16
Trap its chakra with your own and rip it out. Grab the Fox and latch your own chakra onto his and from there it's a tug of war. Keep pulling until the rope makes it all the way to your side. Oh and while you are trying to pull out his chakra, he is trying to pull yours in. If he pulls out everything we got and we go down to zero chakra, well you don't need me to tell ya that right."

If you take the above together, any darkness in Naruto essentially allows Kurama to win the tug of war. And in the above there is nothing said about being able to absorb and use the chakra. As the chakra is being pulled out by either side that chakra is trapped ie cannot be used by anyone. You only get access to that chakra when it makes it all the way to your side ie you win the tug of war. So neither side has the ability to use the other's chakra. They are each pulling on each other's chakra and the only way you win is by pulling it all out.

So when we see the chakra getting dark and on page 14 part of it takes the shape of Naruto's head with headband and is heading in Kurama's direction, Bee doesn't need to say anything. The discussion in chapter 496 above means Naruto is losing, the darkness is too strong and Kurama is now pulling Naruto's chakra out because again Bee already stated in 496 that is what the battle is about so there is no need to repeat it here. Further when Bee says Naruto "don't lose mothafucker," what more does he need to say when losing has already been defined in chapter 496 as Naruto losing all his chakra ie going down to zero which we know means death?

And none of those anlaogies work because you don't play tug of war with oxygen or water. You simply absorb it and use it. Absorb is not a word mentioned in the translation. Anyone who has played tug of war knows you don't get the reward until you win. It is an all or nothing game. You don't get a partial award because you pulled some people toward you. Those people don't start pulling against their former team members. You only get the full reward when you completely win. Thus, Kurama's chakra being pulled is not Naruto's to use until he completely wins and on page 14 he was losing. If Kishi wanted to infer the chakra was being used and absorbed he would have used different words that do not translate into trapped or tug of war. This is why I asked if your translation uses different words than trapped or tug of war because those words don't mean what you think ie absorbed and ready for use right away. Again, it's an all or nothing battle in my book based on how it was described. When you breathe oxygen or drink water no one is trying to steal that shit from you.

[remydat]

The thing is that Madara, by this point, is seriously not someone that you can use as a standard to determine "good" and "bad" with; he's literally the most powerful dude on the planet and the second most powerful guy who ever lived. And he's probably fully aware of that himself.

So I see Madara's praise as just that - honest praise. The fact that it amounts to nothing against him doesn't diminish that it's impressive. It's not like he praises everyone just to give himself an ego boost when he beats them; he's clearly shown that when (he thinks that) someone sucks, he tells them so.

Although, I admit that I find Madara with his over-the-top boasts and constant understatements to be hilarious and probably the most enjoyable thing in this manga right now, so I might be a bit biased into seeing him in a more positive light.

Faint praise to me is still honest. It's just not that impactful because someone outclasses someone else by so much. That is why I used the Jordan example. Jordan is being honest when he praises the kid who scores the bucket but he is so much better than the kid that it doesn't feel like that praise means much. That is why I said it is probably Kishi more than anything. He made Madara so ridiculously powerful that when he praises those lile Kages who he wiped the floor with a few chapters later, it just doesn't have the same impact as if he were praising people who offered a real challenge.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I will say this for Madara-- he makes the over-powered half-asleep villain steamroller shtick work a lot better than Priscilla from Claymore does. Madara actually feels like a real character now-- Priscilla... not so much. when you compare him to other similarly over-powered villains in other manga he's not so bad. still want him to suffer a humiliating defeat for his arrogant douchebag behaviour-- but isn't that what most villains are for?

In all fairness, Priscilla is kind of insane and on autopilot, IIRC, while Madara is enjoying himself. Sure, he's a douche, but he's gonna savor his power trip while he has the opportunity.

She is kinda bland though. Hopefully she becomes more interesting when she actually wakes up.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Speaking of manga, I find it amusing that there's no way for the Shinobi Alliance to counter the center of Madara's philosophy. (Madara's, not Obito's.)

After all, Madara's great argument against the world is that "there are winners and losers", and even if they beat him, that doesn't change the fact that someone lost.

I also realized something amusing; for all of Madara's greatness*, he's never really accomplished anything he's set out to do.
- The Senju ended up in charge instead of the Uchiha.
- He lost to Hashirama.
- He failed to acquire the Rinnegan until he was so old that he couldn't effectively use it.
- He ultimately ended up having to rely on a child that he picked up by sheer luck.

*: Nice guy, not so much. But the guy is genuinely pretty amazing.

Is anyone actually trying to counter his philosophy, though? I think the Shinobi Alliance's stance is more, "It doesn't matter if you don't think the world is fair, we still don't want you to mindrape us. You utter asshole."

[remydat]

In all fairness, Priscilla is kind of insane and on autopilot, IIRC, while Madara is enjoying himself. Sure, he's a douche, but he's gonna savor his power trip while he has the opportunity.

Yeah Priscilla never really regained her senses after she awakened. Hell you could probably argue she merely passed as a stable human when in fact she has been pretty damaged since her family's unfortunate demise when she was a kid. Her behaviour is probably more autistic than anything with her only emotional attachment in the world being Theresa although she probably doesn't remember why. Even her relationship with Isley seemed more like he was just there as opposed to an emotional attachment and with Raki it seemed to be because he smelled like Clare who smelled like Theresa.

Is anyone actually trying to counter his philosophy, though? I think the Shinobi Alliance's stance is more, "It doesn't matter if you don't think the world is fair, we still don't want you to mindrape us. You utter asshole."

Well I don't think they have his massive ego. If they get their asked kicked they likely just roll with it or vow revenge. Madara got his asked kicked and came to the conclusion that his doing so meant the world itself was flawed, lol. You can only make that massive leap if your opinion of yourself is ridiculously high. That is what makes Madara so interesting. He likely came to the right conclusion (the ninja world sucks) for the wrong reasons (how could I the great Madara lose) and has decided on the wrong solution (screw Kishi's world, I am re-writing this whole bitch).

I mean if a report came out of Japan that Kishi was murdered by a gunbai, I would have to seriously consider if Madara's ego was so great that he jumped off the page as Kishi was drawing him and beat the shit out of him for creating a world in which he lost.

[Siriel]

Is anyone actually trying to counter his philosophy, though? I think the Shinobi Alliance's stance is more, "It doesn't matter if you don't think the world is fair, we still don't want you to mindrape us. You utter asshole."

No, even Naruto is only opposing Obito's.

I just found it funny.

[flashdisk]

Ok, first Killer Bee would not need to mention that naruto was losing chakra when he defined the battle up front. Chapter 496 pages 1-3 establish that this is a purification ceremony and that if you have darkness in your heart you will lose your head like the statues in the temple. Then Bee explains exactly how that purification ceremony works.

Chapter 496 page 15-16
Trap its chakra with your own and rip it out. Grab the Fox and latch your own chakra onto his and from there it's a tug of war. Keep pulling until the rope makes it all the way to your side. Oh and while you are trying to pull out his chakra, he is trying to pull yours in. If he pulls out everything we got and we go down to zero chakra, well you don't need me to tell ya that right."

From my understanding of that statement, he means that Naruto would die if he loses all his chakra. This idea is supported by later chapters(519 page 10) which shows that making clones prior to Naruto becoming friends with Kurama, would allow Kurama to steal Naruto's chakra.(Similar to what was happening in their battle). It is repeatedly stated by the 8 tails that when Naruto loses all his chakra, Naruto would [B]die[B].

If you take the above together, any darkness in Naruto essentially allows Kurama to win the tug of war. And in the above there is nothing said about being able to absorb and use the chakra. As the chakra is being pulled out by either side that chakra is trapped ie cannot be used by anyone. You only get access to that chakra when it makes it all the way to your side ie you win the tug of war. So neither side has the ability to use the other's chakra. They are each pulling on each other's chakra and the only way you win is by pulling it all out.

I think it should be noted that in that battle Naruto doesn't lose his chakra, it's not pulled out. Instead it's infected by Kurama's hate. The tug of war resulted after all in the formation of the chakra shroud, which shows that Naruto was obtaining chakra fromt he 9 tails which had it's hate or influence.


My observations are also supported by the wiki"

Within his subconscious, both Naruto and the Nine-Tails began their battle after he used the key to unlock the seal. Just when Naruto (in Sage Mode) was starting to gain the upper hand after he weakened the Nine-Tails with the Rasenshuriken and draining out its chakra, the Nine-Tails instantly planted its own hatred within its chakra and it began to consume Naruto. Just before Naruto was completely succumbed, the spirit of his mother, Kushina Uzumaki, appeared

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki

In the wiki's statements, the chakra was not being ripped out of Naruto, but instead, he was succumbing to the hatred.

So when we see the chakra getting dark and on page 14 part of it takes the shape of Naruto's head with headband and is heading in Kurama's direction, Bee doesn't need to say anything. The discussion in chapter 496 above means Naruto is losing, the darkness is too strong and Kurama is now pulling Naruto's chakra out because again Bee already stated in 496 that is what the battle is about so there is no need to repeat it here. Further when Bee says Naruto "don't lose mothafucker," what more does he need to say when losing has already been defined in chapter 496 as Naruto losing all his chakra ie going down to zero which we know means death?

From what I've is actuall no depiction of Naruto's chakra being ripped out of him. Instead as stated in my previous post, Naruto's chakra body was losing form and merging into the chord of chakra between Naruto and the Kyuubi. The loss of chakra would have occured if the chakra was ripped out, but it was not. Naruto was still firmly connected to the chakra of the Kyuubi

And none of those anlaogies work because you don't play tug of war with oxygen or water. You simply absorb it and use it. Absorb is not a word mentioned in the translation. Anyone who has played tug of war knows you don't get the reward until you win. It is an all or nothing game. You don't get a partial award because you pulled some people toward you. Those people don't start pulling against their former team members. You only get the full reward when you completely win. Thus, Kurama's chakra being pulled is not Naruto's to use until he completely wins and on page 14 he was losing. If Kishi wanted to infer the chakra was being used and absorbed he would have used different words that do not translate into trapped or tug of war. This is why I asked if your translation uses different words than trapped or tug of war because those words don't mean what you think ie absorbed and ready for use right away. Again, it's an all or nothing battle in my book based on how it was described. When you breathe oxygen or drink water no one is trying to steal that shit from you.

I'd say it actually does work.

r.v. ab·sorbed, ab·sorb·ing, ab·sorbs
1. To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices.
2. To occupy the full attention, interest, or time of; engross. See Synonyms at monopolize.
3. To retain (radiation or sound, for example) wholly, without reflection or transmission.
4. To take in; assimilate: immigrants who were absorbed into the social mainstream.
5. To learn; acquire: "Matisse absorbed the lesson and added to it a new language of color" (Peter Plagen).
6. To receive (an impulse) without echo or recoil: a fabric that absorbs sound; a bumper that absorbs impact.
7. To assume or pay for (a cost or costs).
8. To endure; accommodate: couldn't absorb the additional hardships.
9. To use up; consume: The project has absorbed all of our department's resources.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/absorb

As seen in the chapter 496 page 16 and 499 page 11 the chakra is assimilated, taken in, consumed by the taker. It's not merely captured it goes inside the winner's body.


I think it should be noted, that repeatedly in the battle, Naruto does not only hold the chakra, but absorbs assimilates it, takes it in into his mental body. There is nothing exclusive between the words trapped and absorb, because one can be done while doing the other was well.

My view that the battle was more than just trapping but absorbing of chakra can be supported by chapter 496 page 16, One can see that the chakra is actually entering the tentacle of the hachibi, not just being trapped. The same goes for chapter 499 page 11, the ripped out chakra of Kurama enters into Naruto's mental body, not just held.


I would also say that the body 'does capture' oxygen from the atmosphere through breathing. It cannot be absorbed properly by the body until the air is trapped in the lungs and absorbed through the blood vessels in it. So in my book the analogy works.


I would also say that the chakra is automatically available. As stated previously, the bubbling chakra cloak started to form around Naruto, which is formed when Naruto receives chakra with the influence of the nine tails. If the chakra is not automatically available then a cloak would not have formed.

During Naruto's battle with Sasuke at the Valley of the End, Kurama granted Naruto more of its chakra, which enveloped Naruto's body as a bubbling chakra construct, with one tail, which Jiraiya referred to as the "demon fox cloak" (妖狐の衣, yōko no koromo).[8]

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_...5%ABriki_Forms

And I think it should be noted that Naruto is shown reabsorbing the chakra in page 505 page 7 which again had the same effect of turning him into the nine tails chakra mode, which is the form he takes when he obtains chakra without the nine tails influence.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_...5%ABriki_Forms

The chapter was not a normal tug of war, the two combatants tried to consume each other's chakra, with the chakra directly entering into their bodies.

[The Transient Guest]

^ I honestly.....cannot tell what the holy double hell is even being argued anymore.

Challenge: In two sentences explain.

If none of the people participating can do then it's obvious that no one can tell what's going on and should be dropped.

[remydat]

Fine let's sum it up like this. Look at chapter 497 page 14.

My simple question is what does the chakra head of Naruto at the bottom of this page and the little lines above and below the chakra say to you? If we can't agree on what that above scene depicts then further discussion is pointless because there is absolutely no way on god's beautiful green earth I will believe anything but that scene depicts Kurama using the hatred to reverse the flow of the charka which is now heading toward Kurama as evidenced by the Naruto chakra head with headband heading in Kurama's direction. Bee is watching this and realising the chakra is being pulled back by Kurama which is why he says don't lose which he already defined losing earlier as Naruto is having all his chakra drained down to zero ie death.

[The Drunkard Kid]

^ I honestly.....cannot tell what the holy double hell is even being argued anymore.

Challenge: In two sentences explain.

If none of the people participating can do then it's obvious that no one can tell what's going on and should be dropped.

Ahem:

1. Pain's feats are/aren't directly indicative of massive chakra reserves, because blah blah blah.
B) Naruto does/doesn't rely on Kyuubi for his own massive chakra levels, as evidenced by yadda yadda.

[flashdisk]

Fine let's sum it up like this. Look at chapter 497 page 14.

My simple question is what does the chakra head of Naruto at the bottom of this page and the little lines above and below the chakra say to you? If we can't agree on what that above scene depicts then further discussion is pointless because there is absolutely no way on god's beautiful green earth I will believe anything but that scene depicts Kurama using the hatred to reverse the flow of the charka which is now heading toward Kurama as evidenced by the Naruto chakra head with headband heading in Kurama's direction. Bee is watching this and realising the chakra is being pulled back by Kurama which is why he says don't lose which he already defined losing earlier as Naruto is having all his chakra drained down to zero ie death.

As stated previously, in my view it's Naruto's chakra body fusing/merging with the chord of chakra that has formed between the two combatants. It can be seen through the art that Naruto's chakra loses it's form as if it dissolved into the chord of chakra. So in my view it isn't actually Naruto losing his chakra to the Kyubi. The statement of Killerbee of not losing can mean a variety of things, but in my view it's him hoping that Naruto should not lose to hatred. And I think it's justified becaue Naruto had to face his hatred in the falls of truth, and it was in this endeavor that Naruto gained Killerbee's friendship and assistance. In essence Killerbee thought Naruto how to overcome hatred.

Another reason why I have this perspective because I think the Kyuubi has little to gain from taking Naruto's chakra. Taking all of Naruto's chakra, and thereby killing him(as stated by the Hachibi) would also cause Kurama's death(that's why Akatsuki need to capture jinchuriki alive). In my opinion, doing so would just end with both their deaths. And I doubt the Kyuubi would want to die, even if it may ressurect after an unspecified amount of time.

So, in my view, Kurama's most viable option at that point was to infect Naruto with his hatred and influence through his chakra; causing a repetition of what happened in the Pain arc.

[The Transient Guest]

Ahem:

1. Pain's feats are/aren't directly indicative of massive chakra reserves, because blah blah blah.
B) Naruto does/doesn't rely on Kyuubi for his own massive chakra levels, as evidenced by yadda yadda.

These were two sentences.

Brevity is the soul of wit