Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Transient Guest]

I find a personal bit of humor in whole idea about "in order for everyone to be winners and there to be no losers only I can win and everyone else has to lose."

I get the outside reasoning behind it but damn if the way that sounds in my head doesn't illicit a chuckle.

Honestly.....the psychologist in me keeps thinking about what I learned about the problems with telling EVERYONE THEY DID GREAT. It devalues praise and handwork when everyone is a winner despite their personal efforts.
Tobito said "I'll make you Hokage" to Naruto and we know that Naruto has wanted to be Hokage and worked his ass off for it, but random Joe off the street wanted to be Hokage but was New York style lazy and ended up Joe Random Street Guy instead. For JRSG to be a winner he is gonna be Hokage as well despite the fact that he was a loser.

So now there's two hokage's.....one that gave everything, and one that gave nothing. But both are winners. Just one happened to be rewarded for his laziness. And that is commentary on the Great Madara. He's literally given up on the world to the point where he sees no amount of hard work being able to EVER change anything. It'd be just too much effort to work that hard because people are people.

Just give everyone what they want, all the time with no real gratification of reward, just reward.

Why even bother working hard at making people get along, it's easier to....mind control everyone.


But then...this all goes into the "global reality manipulation via illusion" vs "personal eternal illusion" discussion that I find very interesting.

[Jay Dogg]

We'll have to wait two more weeks for the next chapter

[remydat]

Take note that I have and currently reading the manga as I write this. And I do not see the Kyuubi absorbing Naruto's chakra at all after page after chapter 497 page 10. In fact Naruto has clasped down on the Kyuubi's chakra. What's then being seen is Naruto being infected by hatred; shown as the discoloration of the chakra. The chakra is then cleansed of hatred at 499 page 2-3.

And again, I've looked at the manga and it does not show that Kurama was able to pull in and reabsorb his chakra.


Also, I pointed out the sage art, because it shows my previous points in a previous post that these were abilities only available due to Naruto being stationary(a requirement for sage mode).

As for the Kyuubi being astonished by Naruto's power, it doesn't take away from the point that Naruto was able to absorb Kurama's chakra during their tug of war.


Also, I haven't changed the words to suit 'my argument'. I stated the exact words that are in my translation of the manga. I have indicated the very pages so that the panels can be checked for themselves.


In fact the dialogue seen in 497 page 15 indicates that Killerbee became more concerned by the 9 tail's hatred that had infected Naruto rather than chakra loss.

As I said in chapter 497 pages 5-10, Naruto launches two massive attacks using his own chakra. On page 10, he starts winning the tug of war and pulling over Kurama's chakra. Note when Naruto starts to get infected ie the chakra changes to black, page 12 indicates the chakra is flowing in Naruto's direction. However, if you look at the top of page 14 for the first time we see part of the chakra flow take the shape of the top of Naruto's head. By the time you get to the bottom of page 14, the head of naruto is clearly visible within the chakra and you can tell the direction of the chakra has changed and is heading in Kurama's direction because the head within the chakra has the headband Naruto wears and that headband is in Naruto's direction as if the front of the head is facing Kurama and the headband is blowing in the wind at the back of his head. There is absolutely no reason for Kishi to write such a scene except to indicate that the chakra is now moving in the direction of Kurama.

Again that is precisely why his mother shows up. Naruto is losing. His attempt to pull out Kurama's chakra backfired and now Kurama is pulling back in the other direction. So when chapter 499 begins, all that has happened is Kushina has held the 9 tails down but it still was ahead in the tug of war. It is then Naruto unleashes the massive Rasengan attacks that has Kurama remark about his power. In this context, it makes perfect sense for Kurama to remark about it because he had reversed the flow of chakra and had already started taking Naruto's chakra so he was awestruck that Naruto still had enough chakra left to perform those massive attacks. So either you missed the significance of page 14 or your interpretation seems inconsistent from what is presented in the comic.

And where do you get your translation. My translations never use the word absorb but rather trap. If you say your translation says absorb then provide a link and I will read it. Again trap and absorb are two different words with two different meanings. My understanding of the former is that they were trying to trap each other's chakra and until someone won definitively that chakra being pulled was indeed trapped and could not be used by either side.

[remydat]

I find a personal bit of humor in whole idea about "in order for everyone to be winners and there to be no losers only I can win and everyone else has to lose."

I get the outside reasoning behind it but damn if the way that sounds in my head doesn't illicit a chuckle.

Honestly.....the psychologist in me keeps thinking about what I learned about the problems with telling EVERYONE THEY DID GREAT. It devalues praise and handwork when everyone is a winner despite their personal efforts.
Tobito said "I'll make you Hokage" to Naruto and we know that Naruto has wanted to be Hokage and worked his ass off for it, but random Joe off the street wanted to be Hokage but was New York style lazy and ended up Joe Random Street Guy instead. For JRSG to be a winner he is gonna be Hokage as well despite the fact that he was a loser.

So now there's two hokage's.....one that gave everything, and one that gave nothing. But both are winners. Just one happened to be rewarded for his laziness. And that is commentary on the Great Madara. He's literally given up on the world to the point where he sees no amount of hard work being able to EVER change anything. It'd be just too much effort to work that hard because people are people.

Just give everyone what they want, all the time with no real gratification of reward, just reward.

Why even bother working hard at making people get along, it's easier to....mind control everyone.


But then...this all goes into the "global reality manipulation via illusion" vs "personal eternal illusion" discussion that I find very interesting.

Well if you think about it from madara's perspective and taking into account what Siriel said above, from Madara's perspective no one worked harder for his dreams than he did and he still ended up a miserable old man brooding in some underground hell hole until Obtio fell into his lap. For a guy with his ego, if he couldn't get what he wanted by working hard, no one can or if they did it would mean they were somehow better than him. So his solution makes perfect sense in that regard. Let everyone get what they want no matter the effort they put in and not only are they happy but no one can say they surpassed or were better than him because he is the one that made it happen.

Madara's ego that is the problem. He has sacrificed too much and his reward was too little so the lessos are: no amount of hard work matters in which case just give everyone what they want; if he couldn't succeed through hard work then no one should be able to; and/or if someone is able to succeed where he failed then they need to beat him to prove it.

[Siriel]

Well if you think about it from madara's perspective and taking into account what Siriel said above, from Madara's perspective no one worked harder for his dreams than he did and he still ended up a miserable old man brooding in some underground hell hole until Obtio fell into his lap. For a guy with his ego, if he couldn't get what he wanted by working hard, no one can or if they did it would mean they were somehow better than him. So his solution makes perfect sense in that regard. Let everyone get what they want no matter the effort they put in and not only are they happy but no one can say they surpassed or were better than him because he is the one that made it happen.

Madara's ego that is the problem. He has sacrificed too much and his reward was too little so the lessos are: no amount of hard work matters in which case just give everyone what they want; if he couldn't succeed through hard work then no one should be able to; and/or if someone is able to succeed where he failed then they need to beat him to prove it.

Not quite right, I'd say.

Given his obvious and very outspoken respect for Hashirama, I think that Madara looks at it this way:

If two people fight, one of them gets what he wants, the other fails. Does that mean that the one who got what he wanted deserved it more?

To take the example of the pivotal fight of his life:

Madara vs Hashirama. Second greatest and greatest ninja in the world duking it out. Winner takes all.

Hashirama won, Madara ended up a bitter old man.
But if Madara had won, odds are good Hashirama would have been the bitter old man. (Or dead.)

Given that Madara gives Hashirama like all the respect he has to give, he probably doesn't see that as an acceptable outcome either.

Of course, if he had won, Madara probably would have never reached that conclusion, but that's irrelevant to current Madara.

[The Transient Guest]

if someone is able to succeed where he failed then they need to beat him to prove it.

So, exactly what Hashtag did then?

I know Sir pointed that out already, just wanted to point out the flaw in the logic in my own way because I can use it to springboard to a new idea.

Does Madara's feelings about winners and losers come from his own issues with being a loser himself?

[remydat]

So, exactly what Hashtag did then?

I know Sir pointed that out already, just wanted to point out the flaw in the logic in my own way because I can use it to springboard to a new idea.

Does Madara's feelings about winners and losers come from his own issues with being a loser himself?

Yes that was the point I was making. Sure Madara respects Hashirama as he has no choice but to. Hashirama bested him afterall. However, I doubt Madara arrives at the same conclusion regarding winners and losers if in fact he had won the fight. Put another way the fact that the great Uchiha Madara can end up a loser is proof this world is flawed. Hashirama's greatness was only revealed because he beat Madara. If he lost he would have been just another great ninja who didn't stack up to him.

[remydat]

Not quite right, I'd say.

Given his obvious and very outspoken respect for Hashirama, I think that Madara looks at it this way:

If two people fight, one of them gets what he wants, the other fails. Does that mean that the one who got what he wanted deserved it more?

To take the example of the pivotal fight of his life:

Madara vs Hashirama. Second greatest and greatest ninja in the world duking it out. Winner takes all.

Hashirama won, Madara ended up a bitter old man.
But if Madara had won, odds are good Hashirama would have been the bitter old man. (Or dead.)

Given that Madara gives Hashirama like all the respect he has to give, he probably doesn't see that as an acceptable outcome either.

Of course, if he had won, Madara probably would have never reached that conclusion, but that's irrelevant to current Madara.

Again before their fight, Hashirma was just another great ninja. If Madara had won and Hashirama became a bitter old man he would have been just like all the other ninjas that Madara defeated. The only reason Madara has so much respect for him is because he beat him. It is that defeat that exposed the flaw in this world ie that someone as great as him and who sacrificed so much could still end up a loser. Without that defeat, I think Madara continues to beat the snot out of everyone and remains content with the world because he would have never recognised the greatest in someone else. That is why he talks down to everyone else. Until they can beat him they are not worthy of respect no matter how great they appear.

[Siriel]

If Madara had won and Hashirama became a bitter old man he would have been just like all the other ninjas that Madara defeated. The only reason Madara has so much respect for him is because he beat him. It is that defeat that exposed the flaw in this world ie that someone as great as him and who sacrificed so much could still end up a loser. Without that defeat, I think Madara continues to beat the snot out of everyone and remains content with the world because he would have never recognised the greatest in someone else.

So...exactly what I said?

Yes, Madara, had he never lost, would probably never have reached the mentality I described and would never have gone on to execute the Moon Eye's plan.

But that's irrelevant when talking about current Madara, who *did* lose.

That is why he talks down to everyone else. Until they can beat him they are not worthy of respect no matter how great they appear.

The guy has already noted that Naruto and Onoki, while they're not on his level, are worth respecting. (When Naruto countered his attack with a Rasengan barrage and when Onoki had his moment of resolve and got back up after Madara thought he was done.)

Compare that to the way he talk to Tsunade, where he goes "You suck. Your suckiness, despite being Hashirama's descendant, is genuinely offensive to me and I will kill you first for it.".

[remydat]

Not quite right, I'd say.

Given his obvious and very outspoken respect for Hashirama, I think that Madara looks at it this way:

If two people fight, one of them gets what he wants, the other fails. Does that mean that the one who got what he wanted deserved it more?

To take the example of the pivotal fight of his life:

Madara vs Hashirama. Second greatest and greatest ninja in the world duking it out. Winner takes all.

Hashirama won, Madara ended up a bitter old man.
But if Madara had won, odds are good Hashirama would have been the bitter old man. (Or dead.)

Given that Madara gives Hashirama like all the respect he has to give, he probably doesn't see that as an acceptable outcome either.

Of course, if he had won, Madara probably would have never reached that conclusion, but that's irrelevant to current Madara.

For the sake of argument let's say the objective truth of this world is that the system of winners and losers is flawed. What I was trying to say is that until Madara was humbled by his loss to Hashirama he was incapable of grasping that objective truth. His subjective experience would have been that of a winner and thus for him the fact he won would have affirmed the validity of this world.

And my case rests on his massive ego. I am not sure Hashirama would have arrived at the same conclusion if he lost because I don't know enough about him to judge his attitudes of those that are weaker than him. I have seen enough of Madara to know that he only seems to respect people capable of defeating him and that respect seems entirely dependent on the fact the person was capable of defeating him.

[Siriel]

For the sake of argument let's say the objective truth of this world is that the system of winners and losers is flawed. What I was trying to say is that until Madara was humbled by his loss to Hashirama he was incapable of grasping that objective truth. His subjective experience would have been that of a winner and thus for him the fact he won would have affirmed the validity of this world.

So, again, exactly what I said except you used two paragraphs where I used one sentence?

I have seen enough of Madara to know that he only seems to respect people capable of defeating him and that respect seems entirely dependent on the fact the person was capable of defeating him.

Did you like close your eyes when he gave props to Naruto and Onoki?

[remydat]

So...exactly what I said?

Yes, Madara, had he never lost, would probably never have reached the mentality I described and would never have gone on to execute the Moon Eye's plan.

But that's irrelevant when talking about current Madara, who *did* lose.

It is not irrelevant because I said it in response to a very specific statement by TG. TG's noted that in Madara's plan the guy who is lazy and dreams of being Hokage gets his wish fulfilled just the same as the guy who works hard and wishes to be Hokage. So I was explaining why from Madara's perspective that is fine. He worked hard to no avail due to his loss to Hashirama so from his perspective working hard is meaningless in this flawed world. That was why I brought it up which in my response to TG, I referenced your post above ie I was agreeing with you.

The guy has already noted that Naruto and Onoki, while they're not on his level, are worth respecting. (When Naruto countered his attack with a Rasengan barrage and when Onoki had his moment of resolve and got back up after Madara thought he was done.)

Compare that to the way he talk to Tsunade, where he goes "You suck. Your suckiness, despite being Hashirama's descendant, is genuinely offensive to me and I will kill you first for it.".

I read that as him having less disdain for them Naruto and Oonoki as opposed to him have massive respect for them. And in a way, Tsunade's weakness is an affront to him because it diminishes how great Hashirama was and by extension Madara ie the guy that lost to him. Their battle was so long ago that few people were alive to witness their greatness and Hashirama's memory is thus tied to his descendents. If those descendents are weak then it calls into question Madara's own weakness in losing to a guy whose descendents are weak since that is the lasting memory of Hashirma ie his children.

[remydat]

So, again, exactly what I said except you used two paragraphs where I used one sentence?

Did you like close your eyes when he gave props to Naruto and Onoki?

Again, read post 3351 which I began with "Well if you think about it from madara's perspective and taking into account what Siriel said above . . ."

I am not sure why you think I was disagreeing with you in the first place when my post directly stated I was taking what you said into account. I was always building off of your statement to explain why I thought Madara would be fine with the lazy guy and the hard working guy getting what they wanted ie because he had already tried the hard working route and failed so if he could fail at it then trying to go that route was meaningless.

And what chapter is his praise of Oonoki and Naruto? It has been awhile so perhaps given Madara's extreme smugness I misinterpreted that as faint praise or backhanded compliment if you will but happy to go read it again.

[Siriel]

I'd missed that part, my bad I suppose.

And what chapter is his praise of Oonoki and Naruto. It has been awhile so perhaps given Madara's extreme smugness I misinterpreted that as faint praise or backhanded compliment if you will but happy to go read it again.

I can't recall when the Onoki one was. I think it's when he realizes that he's been making excuses and decides to work as hard as he can. The next time the Kages attack, Madara goes "You dance well." before adding that he's still better. Compared to his usual stuff, that's practically a glowing endorsement.

The part for Naruto is before the Kages arrive, when Naruto counters his attack with a Rasengan barrage, at which point Madara goes "As you say, he's some kid.". (In reference to Kabuto's earlier comment that Naruto was "some kid that would be easy to capture".) Chapter 561.
And later, when he fights the real Naruto and Naruto tells him that this isn't enough to defeat him, he apologizes for holding back and notes that now he'll go all-out to capture the Nine-Tails.

[remydat]

Looks like in chapter 561, he says of Onoki on page 3 that the brat can be useful. Then there is the reference that you noted he made to Naruto. In 563 he also comments that the Mizukage's attack was a very impressive offense. He also praises Gaara for his good defense. So yeah perhaps he is more forthcoming with praise than I remembered. However, it still feels like faint praise to me.

To be fair, that is probably more on Kishi than anything. If Madara was taking the Kages seriously the whole time then their attacks and his praise of their attacks would come off as more genuine. However, once we find out he was just screwing around with them and then when he decided to take them seriously he basically wiped the floor with them off panel then his praise just comes off as Michael Jordan praising a middle school kid for scoring a basket against him when he wasn't being serious and then hanging like 50 points on him in 5 minutes.