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  1. #3331
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    Again, you should remember that many of those techniques such as the rasenshuriken and sage art gargantuan rasengan made use of sage mode. In 496, Naruto also did not use that many Kagebunshin, the chapter seems to indicate it to be less than 10. The appearance of Kushina occurs just after he had tugged out a portion of the 9 tails chakra(497, page 10) and was infected by its hatred.(after Naruto had hit it with rasenshuriken which is a sage technique). Chapter 497 page 11-17.

    (Take not that Kushina seemed to be viewable within Naruto's 'inner mind.' )


    In chapter 498 page 6, Kushina's chakra chains emerged from Naruto's body which bind the Kyuubi in place while Naruto was still connected to the Kyuubi via a line of chakra that it had tugged out( the one from 497, page 10). That line of chakra is cleansed in chapter 499 page 3 enabling Naruto to absorb it. At 499 page 4 he then uses hundreds of clones to attack and absorb more and more of the Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto absorbs it at page 499 page 12.

    If Naruto was unable to use the chakra he takes from the Kyuubi then Naruto's endeavor to fight the Kyuubi had no purpose, imo.








    Also the appearance
    Not sure the point you are making about Sage mode. It is still Naruto doing it. And I already said Naruto pull some chakra from Kurama. However you conveniently ignore the fact that after he is infected as you call it, kurama pulls back and not only takes his chakra back but also some of naruto's which is why his mom shows up. At no point is it implied that naruto used any of kurama's chakra as he had it for a short time before kurama took it all back. Bee is even worried naruto is about to lose.

    And again trap and absorb are two different words with two different meanings. You are trying to replace a word that gives no indication that Naruto was using Kurama's chakra with one that does. Find me a translation that uses your word absorb otherwise trap does not imply what you maintain it does and neiuses your word or a tug of war example where you get to use the people after they cross over the line.

    Again fine if you want to believe the above but you have to understand you are changing words in the source material to suit your argument. Not to mention Kurama says point how is naruto so powerful. If the dude just stole his chakra and used it kurama would not be so awestruck.
    Last edited by remydat; 01-01-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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  2. #3332
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Looking back, even the first time that Tobi identified himself as Madara, he said it in a way that could also mean that he wasn't Madara..

    Tobi: "The Sharingan's true power, my power...Uchiha Madara's power."

    Depending on how you interpret what he says, it could either be that all three powers are the same (his) and that he's revealing his shocking true identity!! while dramatically posing in front of a thunderstorm...or that he's talking about three different things, which we now know to have been the case. (The eternal genjutsu, himself and the real Madara that he intended to resurrect.)


    Also, I wish the anime would hurry up a bit and stop with the padding. They're not even at the fight against zombie Itachi, and I'm curious to see how they'll interpret the part where Madara walks out of his coffin and the manga switched to first person view. I just hope they won't mess up the animation for the Madara VS Kages fight.
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  3. #3333
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Also, I wish the anime would hurry up a bit and stop with the padding. They're not even at the fight against zombie Itachi, and I'm curious to see how they'll interpret the part where Madara walks out of his coffin and the manga switched to first person view. I just hope they won't mess up the animation for the Madara VS Kages fight.
    I'm personally hoping that some part of the fight gets an extended filler sequence with fluid animation like the anime versions of the Kakuzu, Hawk vs. Bee and Hinata vs. Pain fights.

    And if it doesn't there're goods odds that Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 turns it into an awesome boss fight.

  4. #3334
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not sure the point you are making about Sage mode. It is still Naruto doing it. And I already said Naruto pull some chakra from Kurama. However you conveniently ignore the fact that after he is infected as you call it, kurama pulls back and not only takes his chakra back but also some of naruto's which is why his mom shows up. At no point is it implied that naruto used any of kurama's chakra as he had it for a short time before kurama took it all back. Bee is even worried naruto is about to lose.

    And again trap and absorb are two different words with two different meanings. You are trying to replace a word that gives no indication that Naruto was using Kurama's chakra with one that does. Find me a translation that uses your word absorb otherwise trap does not imply what you maintain it does and neiuses your word or a tug of war example where you get to use the people after they cross over the line.

    Again fine if you want to believe the above but you have to understand you are changing words in the source material to suit your argument. Not to mention Kurama says point how is naruto so powerful. If the dude just stole his chakra and used it kurama would not be so awestruck.

    Take note that I have and currently reading the manga as I write this. And I do not see the Kyuubi absorbing Naruto's chakra at all after page after chapter 497 page 10. In fact Naruto has clasped down on the Kyuubi's chakra. What's then being seen is Naruto being infected by hatred; shown as the discoloration of the chakra. The chakra is then cleansed of hatred at 499 page 2-3.

    And again, I've looked at the manga and it does not show that Kurama was able to pull in and reabsorb his chakra.


    Also, I pointed out the sage art, because it shows my previous points in a previous post that these were abilities only available due to Naruto being stationary(a requirement for sage mode).

    As for the Kyuubi being astonished by Naruto's power, it doesn't take away from the point that Naruto was able to absorb Kurama's chakra during their tug of war.


    Also, I haven't changed the words to suit 'my argument'. I stated the exact words that are in my translation of the manga. I have indicated the very pages so that the panels can be checked for themselves.


    In fact the dialogue seen in 497 page 15 indicates that Killerbee became more concerned by the 9 tail's hatred that had infected Naruto rather than chakra loss.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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  5. #3335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    And that's not what I asked.

    This is a Naruto manga. Give me Naruto facts.

    Don't just cherry pick science when it suits you and discard it when it doesn't.
    I have already repeatedly given various facts and details based on the manga.




    And that's not what I asked.
    You're asking for scans that say gravity manipulation has low cost, but I will respond to that by asking for a scan of how much chakra it takes to use gravity manipulation.


    And this relates to Nagato's chakra capacity how?
    As I repeatedly stated in my previous force, it's an incredibly cost effective power, where even tiny actions can seem great.


    I supposed Nagato had the x-gene all along too, right?
    No. But there are still parallels between Nagato's ability and other fictional works.


    No. I will agree on that. It is still an absurd amount of chakra by any standard.

    Except Juubi's, but he doesn't count and the Sage too I guess.



    Which again, doesn't matter.



    It does matter because it shows how the type of material or effort(a nuclear device) can equate to greater power even when compared to a larger amout of effort(TNT).




    Not it can't. At least you have yet to provided proof from the manga that it can't.

    But if you want to go get some X-Men comics and show them to us, suit yourself.
    And I have yet to find evidence in the manga to the contrary.

    As for evidence in the manga, it should be noted that Pain is mostly the only character available in the manga with such abilities.




    Nah. Sakura still needs chakra to do what she does. She controls it well, but she still doesn't get nowhere near the bang of the high level guys.
    On the contrary, it must be remembered that Sakura defeat a summoned creature in one punch and destroy the surrounding area through her fists alone such as when she created a fissure on the ground to force Kakashi back on the surface during the bells training.

    I can even assume that her strangth is close to that of sage mode Naruto.






    Not in a way that remotely help your argument.

    It does, because it means that it can nullify weight and thereby greatly decrease the effort to perform certain tasks.



    Call me when Naruto (Not with Kurama) shows comparable power to ripping out mountains from the ground.
    And how does this help your point, considering I have repeatedly stated that Nagato(with the ability to rip mountains ) shouldn't be compared to an unaltered non-Kyubi enhanced Naruto?




    To the first sentence, So? You seem to think this is an all or nothing game. It isn't.

    Not having tailed beast chakra doesn't automatically put you in the same boat as everyone else. Chapter one Sakura is no the same as Chapter one Sasuke, who is no the same as Kakashi who is not the as old man Saru and so on.
    It does make chakra disparity less of a factor. As for saying not having a tailed beast doesn't automatically put you in the same boat. In terms of chakra, I think it would since it would put most of the characters back unto a certain limited range.


    Whether they would be in the same boat in terms of qualifications as a ninja would depend on how they use their chakra; what techniques they use and tools they have.
    Sometimes you lose things which you don't expect losing. It doesn't make the hurt any less.

  6. #3336
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    I have already repeatedly given various facts and details based on the manga.
    Then you would have no problems in posting a scan that says gravity manipulation requires less chakra comparatively then?

    You make the assertion, when we have plenty of evidence to the contrary (every single time Pain breaks out a big move chakra is made an issue of).

    So, right now. Post a scan. Prove your point.

    Or admit you're making stuff up.
    Last edited by Hazard; 01-01-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  7. #3337

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    Gravity Manipulation Schmamity Schmipumation. Nagato supplied the chakra to do a lot of summons, hails of chakra bullets, regenning/ressurecting any of his bodies that fell, leveled the village, temporarily restrained a berserk Naruto in the crushed remenants of mountains (admittedly, those last two required schmamity schmipumation), then topped it all off by managing to resurrect most of a village by himself where Tobito thinks he'll die just rezzing Madara (and Chiyo bit it just bringing back Gaara, but that may be due to the specific mechanics of that tech) . Dude seems to have a somewhat impressive chakra reserve.
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  8. #3338
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Gravity Manipulation Schmamity Schmipumation. Nagato supplied the chakra to do a lot of summons, hails of chakra bullets, regenning/ressurecting any of his bodies that fell, leveled the village, temporarily restrained a berserk Naruto in the crushed remenants of mountains (admittedly, those last two required schmamity schmipumation), then topped it all off by managing to resurrect most of a village by himself where Tobito thinks he'll die just rezzing Madara (and Chiyo bit it just bringing back Gaara, but that may be due to the specific mechanics of that tech) . Dude seems to have a somewhat impressive chakra reserve.
    True. All the while splitting his chakra between six different bodies, not counting in his own.

    The logic of his argument is so damn baffling I have to address that part though.

  9. #3339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Then you would have no problems in posting a scan that says gravity manipulation requires less chakra comparatively then?

    You make the assertion, when we have plenty of evidence to the contrary (every single time Pain breaks out a big move chakra is made an issue of).

    So, right now. Post a scan. Prove your point.

    Or admit you're making stuff up.
    I will use someone who can manipulate the weight of objects as an example.

    http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__..._Technique.png (the link is to a wiki and not to a scan site which I think is allowable by the rules of this forum)

    Bear in mind that Onoki with his technique was able to life the entirety of turtle island including it's many mountains.


    And again, I queston your evidence, when as I stated chakra stamina is dependent on the person. Kakashi always makes an issue of his chakra. Yet a lot for him is not a lot for people such as Naruto. I have stated this in my previous posts.
    Sometimes you lose things which you don't expect losing. It doesn't make the hurt any less.

  10. #3340
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Gravity Manipulation Schmamity Schmipumation. Nagato supplied the chakra to do a lot of summons, hails of chakra bullets, regenning/ressurecting any of his bodies that fell, leveled the village, temporarily restrained a berserk Naruto in the crushed remenants of mountains (admittedly, those last two required schmamity schmipumation), then topped it all off by managing to resurrect most of a village by himself where Tobito thinks he'll die just rezzing Madara (and Chiyo bit it just bringing back Gaara, but that may be due to the specific mechanics of that tech) . Dude seems to have a somewhat impressive chakra reserve.


    But how much can you attribute to the power of his techniques and how much can you attribute to his actual chakra reserves? I think we have to remember that we have techniques that enable people to lift up islands without noticeable drain to their chakra. (So again, as I pointed out previously I do not think Nagato is qualified as a basis to find out an unaltered Naruto's chakra levels)

    We have Sakura smashing fissures on the ground through her sheer chakra control. In the world of Naruto, having better techniques could make up for less chakra.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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  11. #3341
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    snip
    No Hazard. I am sorry. I cannot provide evidence Pain's powers work like that.

    Got it.

  12. #3342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    No Hazard. I am sorry. I cannot provide evidence Pain's powers work like that.

    Got it.
    On the contrary, I've already given a lot of basis for stance. And I do not apologize.
    Sometimes you lose things which you don't expect losing. It doesn't make the hurt any less.

  13. #3343
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    On the contrary, I've already given a lot of basis for stance. And I do not apologize.
    No, you just think you have by pulling in a character with power unrelated to Pain who also happens to have large chakra reserves, and... no... wait, let's end this.

    Dude, let me be level with you .You have this thing where you really believe in a fair game. You cheer for team work, hard work and all that stuff. In other circumstances it would be admirable. Honest. However every time stuff like this comes up, I can't help but feel you are a tad too obsessed.

    So really. Take a step back. Remind yourself that it is manga, and that you don't have to bend all is rules to justify your own beliefs because it really is just a manga.

    Have a good night.

  14. #3344
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Speaking of manga, I find it amusing that there's no way for the Shinobi Alliance to counter the center of Madara's philosophy. (Madara's, not Obito's.)

    After all, Madara's great argument against the world is that "there are winners and losers", and even if they beat him, that doesn't change the fact that someone lost.

    I also realized something amusing; for all of Madara's greatness*, he's never really accomplished anything he's set out to do.
    - The Senju ended up in charge instead of the Uchiha.
    - He lost to Hashirama.
    - He failed to acquire the Rinnegan until he was so old that he couldn't effectively use it.
    - He ultimately ended up having to rely on a child that he picked up by sheer luck.

    *: Nice guy, not so much. But the guy is genuinely pretty amazing.
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  15. #3345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Speaking of manga, I find it amusing that there's no way for the Shinobi Alliance to counter the center of Madara's philosophy. (Madara's, not Obito's.)

    After all, Madara's great argument against the world is that "there are winners and losers", and even if they beat him, that doesn't change the fact that someone lost.

    I also realized something amusing; for all of Madara's greatness*, he's never really accomplished anything he's set out to do.
    - The Senju ended up in charge instead of the Uchiha.
    - He lost to Hashirama.
    - He failed to acquire the Rinnegan until he was so old that he couldn't effectively use it.
    - He ultimately ended up having to rely on a child that he picked up by sheer luck.

    *: Nice guy, not so much. But the guy is genuinely pretty amazing.

    In a way, the eternal mangekyo may be the only way he can achieve victory now. It's probably his desire for a new world would expunge his losses in the old. What alternative is available in Naruto's world?
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 11:47 PM.
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