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  1. #3316
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Nagato also didn't rip mountains from ground when he trained with Jiraya. If anything he has even more chakra than Naruto.

    People become stronger. It's a thing.
    Nonsense. People only become weaker as time goes on.

    Just look at Itachi, who had trouble moving by the end. Or Madara, who couldn't even walk out of his cave. Or the Third Hokage.

    You see, it's not that people in the current chapters are more powerful than they were pre-timeskip, it's that they've become so weak that they can no longer focus their attacks and as a result blow up mountains. That's why Madara is always whining that everybody is weak - he has to do the same and spread out his attacks or he would look less awesome because people wouldn't understand that the little fireball he shoots are ludicrously powerful.

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  2. #3317
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    It doesn't state that the disparity between her powers and those of the other Uzumaki's was too great originally.



    Yes, I remember that. But from where I stand I think that hidden cloud kidnapped her due to the nine tails already being in her, not beforehand. So in essence they were aleady attempting to obtain the nine tails. The 'special chakra' they were trying to obtain may have been Kurama, since he is a mass of chakra.

    As for her bloodlines special chakra, it in no way means that it directly caused the great chakra disparity that we are now seeing between the likes of Karin and Naruto, which I still think is the result of the Kyuubi.




    Perhaps, but I didn't think Naruto truly used only his own chakra. Aside from it being a battle betwee their minds, from what I recall, Naruto was already absorbing the Kyuubi's chakra all through out that battle. It must also be noted that Naruto's real body was stationary allowing him to draw in unlimited amounts of natural energy, something that cannot be done in actual battle. I also thought that Naruto had access to some of the Kyuubi's chakra that had been provided before hand such as when Naruto was thrown of the cliff(after all using that chakra became an automatic response without need for further requests).




    I have no qualms in regard to having large amounts of chakra. But very greatly doubt that the level of chakra Naruto displays is just a direct result Kushina's bloodline despite her being the best. As stated previously, what little we've seen of her abilities was only done after she became the host(enhanced) of the Kyuubi(and being but a spirit). Furthermore what power she has displayed seems more like a sealing technique rather than an indication of an immense chakra.

    I am of the opinion that Karin should be mentioned because she has had little enhancement from what we've seen. Despite possibly being born as the strongest of the Uzumaki's in terms of chakra, I doubt there would have been such a wide disparity in chakra levels between Kushina and Karin, without the Kyuubi, since they are of the same clan and possibly inherited most of the same attributes and strengths.
    So you dont think being kidnapped specifically because of her chakra and being specifically chosen to be a host for her chakra tells us anything. Two completely different groups of ninja singling out kushina for the same reason. Fine we can agree to disagree on that.

    And I am pretty sure if the intent of the special chakra reference was a reference to kurama it would be a lot easy to simply say she was kidnapped because she was the host. So I took them mentioning chakra and not her being a host as indicative that they were referring to her natural chakra. Not even sure she was the host at this point but again agee to disagree.

    And the manga stated clearly that naruto and kurama were engaged in a chakra tug of war. It would be pretty damn stupid for kurama to engage in a rigged game were naruto is still using kurama's chakra instead of his own when that was the whole point of the tug of war. But again I suppose we can agree to disagree on that as well.

    In the end all of thia stuff is down to our respective interpretations of ambiguous scenes so can't definitely say one way or the other.
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  3. #3318
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    Yamato is shown continually concentrating within a circle of wooden totems in chapter 317 page 7 and other parts in the manga. I see that as Yamato continually controlling the Kyuubi's chakra. Kakashi again says that Yamato is controlling the Kyuubi's chakra not stopping. I would expect the dialogue to be very different if they were simply trying to enhance the seal and stop the flow of Kyuubi chakra altogether.

    Growing fangs or tails doesn't need to be used to indicate that Naruto whether Naruto is using the Kyuubi's chakra, since I see the dialogue is already stating that he is. To me it mostly indicates whether or not Naruto is losing control.

    As for Yamato stating that Naruto shouldn't use it; this is the captain that helped Naruto in the turtle island to learn to control the Kyuubi. I don't see any conflict in his personality if he were help Naruto learn a new technique to lessen his dependence on the Kyuubi. Even if the path through that is using the Kyuubi's chakra.

    I see Yamato as more concerned by the danger, with the danger lessened or managed, I don't see why he would reject the training method.
    Except for the part where Mokuton doesn't do that. At all.

    Also seriously, he was shown stopping Naruto from going Kyuubi.

    Multiple times.

    How do you go from that to Yamato using an ability he has never shown?

    Naruto is not using Kyuubi's chakra. It doesn't, ever say, "Well, you are going to use Kyuubi's chakra here for your training, because, I don't know, you just do."

    Yamato is there to stop Naruto from going berserk. Which he almost does. Again. Multiple times. Which he wouldn't need to do were he doing what you say he is doing.

    You're making stuff up at this point.


    It's simply leverage. The better tools one has means the less force needed to perform a specific task. The same way leverage through pulleys makes moving items easier than using brute force. In this case these tools would include his jutsus, knowledge and his eyes.

    I think that Nagato's increase in power after his injury is partly due to the knowledge shared by Tobi when they joined forces.
    Alright. Like I said. Elaborate on why manipulating gravity means better leverage.

    Do provided evidence.

    Do provide feats.

    Especially where you explain why better leverage matters when you consider the scale of what is being done. That part is kind of important I believe.
    Last edited by Hazard; 12-31-2012 at 10:41 PM.

  4. #3319
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Nonsense. People only become weaker as time goes on.

    Just look at Itachi, who had trouble moving by the end. Or Madara, who couldn't even walk out of his cave. Or the Third Hokage.

    You see, it's not that people in the current chapters are more powerful than they were pre-timeskip, it's that they've become so weak that they can no longer focus their attacks and as a result blow up mountains. That's why Madara is always whining that everybody is weak - he has to do the same and spread out his attacks or he would look less awesome because people wouldn't understand that the little fireball he shoots are ludicrously powerful.

    what the hell did I just write
    I am cool with this.

  5. #3320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Except for the part where Mokuton doesn't do that. At all.

    Also seriously, he was shown stopping Naruto from going Kyuubi.

    Multiple times.

    How do you go from that to Yamato using an ability he has never shown?

    Naruto is not using Kyuubi's chakra. It doesn't, ever say, "Well, you are going to use Kyuubi's chakra here for your training, because, I don't know, you just do."

    Yamato is there to stop Naruto from going berserk. Which he almost does. Again. Multiple times. Which he wouldn't need to do were he doing what you say he is doing.

    You're making stuff up at this point.
    I believe it was directly stated by Yamato that he was controlling not stopping the flow. But I think a good example of Mokuton being used to control bijuu can actually be seen in chapter 613 7-8 when Madara tells Obito to use the 1st's cells to enhance the bond with the Jyuubi. It thereby shows that Mokuton; the 1st's power being used to 'control' rather than just to suppress.



    I think it should also be noted that the white Zetsu army(Hashirama plant clones) was created through Hashirama's power being used in conjunction with that of the captured tailed beasts. I see this as another example of Mokuton; Hashirama's power being used to control or manipulate the power of the tailed beast for the users purposes. This can be seen in chapter 512.


    I believe it should also be noted that in chapter 404 page 14, it was stated by Tobi that Hashirama had most of the tailed beasts in his possession before he gave them out to the other villages. And I suspect he controlled them with this bloodline limt, the Mokuton. Orochimaru pretty much states it as a fact in chapter 291 page 14-15 as he was talking about Yamato being one of his ginuea pigs in the attempt to gain Hashirama's ability to bend bijuu to his will.






    Alright. Like I said. Elaborate on why manipulating gravity means better leverage.

    Do provided evidence.

    Do provide feats.

    Especially where you explain why better leverage matters when you consider the scale of what is being done. That part is kind of important I believe.

    Well, gravity manipulation in itself is a power that manipulates the amount of force required for a specific task. And from what I've seen, at times nullifying the effects of mass in itself.


    Astronauts on mars for example could jump roughly three times as high on Mar's surface than that of earth's. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_high_c...n_mars_surface

    The ability to manipulate the gravitational or attraction of objects would pretty much give Nagato control over the amount of work needed to perform specific tasks since in physics itself the amount of work is determined through force multiplied by distance. And the amount of force is determined by mass * acceleration. To nullify mass would thereby nullify the amount of force required to perform tasks and most probably the amount of work required to perform these tasks as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_%28unit%29
    http://www2.franciscan.edu/academic/...ation-1011.htm

    Given the versatility and effectivness of such abilities, I doubt it would be a good basis to show Nagato's chakra levels compared to Naruto.

    Also, it should be noted that gravity manipulation is found in other media. http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Manipulation Many of Nagato's feats are quite common and at times with limited strain to the user.
    http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Manipulation


    But to better show my point, I would look at the other doujutsu users such as Sasuke and Itachi. From my perspective, given the loss of Orochimaru's chakra Sasuke has normal chakra levels. However his jutsus through the Sharringgan still enable him to fight on par with people immense chakra levels. In this case the effectiveness of Sasuke's tools(Sharinggan) make up for his normal chakra levels.

    These two characters have already displayed their immense powers without resorting to immense chakra levels themselves. These feats include Sasuke fighting the kages, itachi and Sasuke using Susanoo and Amaterasu.


    Another example of better tools would be Tsunade's immense strength that does not rely on immense chakra, but rather on greater control. Something that Sakura also learned. These feats and examples show that immense chakra levels aren't the only factor in a ninja's power. And in my belief add a basis to the idea that Nagato may not have had close to comparable chakra levels to that of Naruto.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 03:39 AM.
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  6. #3321
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post

    And the manga stated clearly that naruto and kurama were engaged in a chakra tug of war. It would be pretty damn stupid for kurama to engage in a rigged game were naruto is still using kurama's chakra instead of his own when that was the whole point of the tug of war. But again I suppose we can agree to disagree on that as well.

    In the end all of thia stuff is down to our respective interpretations of ambiguous scenes so can't definitely say one way or the other.
    I think we must remember that the more chakra Naruto tugged away from Kurama the more chakra he had at his disposal. And I distinctly remember Naruto himself continually absorbing more and more of Kurama's chakra as the battle went on.

    From the way I see it, Kurama loses control of his chakra once someone else takes it away from him, especially with the way that battle progressed.

    As for Kurama's stupidity, I think we should also remember that Kurama was but just a captive then. I doubt a prisoner with Kurama's disposition would let the chance of freedom slip by. I also have difficulty thinking that any prisoner would let the chance slip by. I also wonder how much of a choice Kurama had.
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  7. #3322

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    Kakashi's Kage Bunshin were a bluff in that overuse of the Sharingan had left him (and therefore his clones) barely able to stand.

    Also, do we know anything about Karin's chakra levels? Yeah, she sucks in a fight (against Kage class ninja and Bijuu, anyways, like 99.999% of the world), but her sensor abilities, knowledge of Orochimaru's work and ability to heal Sasuke from mortal wounds with one bite, without suffering any apparent drain probably ranks her as Team Hawk/Snake's MVP. Besides, we already have feats for ninja of an Uzumaki level bloodline having a huge disparity in chakra/power, ie: Madara/Obito/Itachi/Sasuke vs. unnamed doens/hundreds of slaughtered Uchiha.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 01-01-2013 at 03:58 AM.
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  8. #3323

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    Also, since "Kakashi" means "scarecrow", his Kage Bunshin were probably Kakashi version at that time because they were there to frighten off those thugs even though they couldn't actualy move/fight due to his condition, which would make them a bluff.
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  9. #3324
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    I believe it was directly stated by Yamato that he was controlling not stopping the flow. But I think a good example of Mokuton being used to control bijuu can actually be seen in chapter 613 7-8 when Madara tells Obito to use the 1st's cells to enhance the bond with the Jyuubi. It thereby shows that Mokuton; the 1st's power being used to 'control' rather than just to suppress.

    I think it should also be noted that the white Zetsu army(Hashirama plant clones) was created through Hashirama's power being used in conjunction with that of the captured tailed beasts. I see this as another example of Mokuton; Hashirama's power being used to control or manipulate the power of the tailed beast for the users purposes. This can be seen in chapter 512.


    I believe it should also be noted that in chapter 404 page 14, it was stated by Tobi that Hashirama had most of the tailed beasts in his possession before he gave them out to the other villages. And I suspect he controlled them with this bloodline limt, the Mokuton. Orochimaru pretty much states it as a fact in chapter 291 page 14-15 as he was talking about Yamato being one of his ginuea pigs in the attempt to gain Hashirama's ability to bend bijuu to his will.
    You mean after years of experimenting with it.

    Yamato himself never has done this.

    If he was actually doing what you claim, Naruto would not have gone Kyuubi several times in his training.

    Well, gravity manipulation in itself is a power that manipulates the amount of force required for a specific task. And from what I've seen, at times nullifying the effects of mass in itself.

    Astronauts on mars for example could jump roughly three times as high on Mar's surface than that of earth's. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_high_c...n_mars_surface

    The ability to manipulate the gravitational or attraction of objects would pretty much give Nagato control over the amount of work needed to perform specific tasks since in physics itself the amount of work is determined through force multiplied by distance. And the amount of force is determined by mass * acceleration. To nullify mass would thereby nullify the amount of force required to perform tasks and most probably the amount of work required to perform these tasks as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_%28unit%29
    http://www2.franciscan.edu/academic/...ation-1011.htm

    Given the versatility and effectivness of such abilities, I doubt it would be a good basis to show Nagato's chakra levels compared to Naruto.

    Also, it should be noted that gravity manipulation is found in other media. http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Manipulation Many of Nagato's feats are quite common and at times with limited strain to the user.
    http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Manipulation
    Points for effort.

    Gravity does not come from nowhere though. If you want to move something with gravity you need a big strong enough force, strong enough gravity.

    Nagato creates the effect with his chakra. It is established that the bigger the effect the more chakra he needs.

    Otherwise you are arguing Nagato can move the entire earth with no problem.

    And linking to other fictional works is downright useless for this.

    But to better show my point, I would look at the other doujutsu users such as Sasuke and Itachi. From my perspective, given the loss of Orochimaru's chakra Sasuke has normal chakra levels. However his jutsus through the Sharringgan still enable him to fight on par with people immense chakra levels. In this case the effectiveness of Sasuke's tools(Sharinggan) make up for his normal chakra levels.
    His sharingan jutsu that were killing him, because he wasn't strong enough?

    Even then, Kakashi has admitted Sasuke has greater chakra than him.

    Another example of better tools would be Tsunade's immense strength that does not rely on immense chakra, but rather on greater control. Something that Sakura also learned. These feats and examples show that immense chakra levels aren't the only factor in a ninja's power. And in my belief add a basis to the idea that Nagato may not have had close to comparable chakra levels to that of Naruto.
    Tsunade's strength doesn't come from chakra control. Sakura's does. Which also does not mean she is using little chakra to do it. In fact, it is more reasonable to assume the greater the feat of strength the more chakra she needed for it.

    Which of course doesn't address the point of how does creating a gravity well that produces strong enough force to rip out mountains doesn't require lots of chakra when it is blatantly pointed out it does.


    There was this one time in Rumbles when a guy was claiming Terrax didn't bust a planet because he was using his earth powers to do it.

    This is reminding me of that time.


    Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying chakra levels> All. There are different types of ninja and they all have ways of overcoming their weaknesses.

    However, power types are power types, and arguing that a power type is not, in fact, a power type seems just silly.

    Oonoki, Nagato, Naruto, A. They are all guys that use lots of chakra, to get lots of power out of the deal.

    Kabuto, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato. They use clever techniques and have cool tricks to fight. Though it should be noted, even those guys have larger than normal reserves.
    Last edited by Hazard; 01-01-2013 at 05:48 AM.

  10. #3325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    You mean after years of experimenting with it.

    Yamato himself never has done this.

    If he was actually doing what you claim, Naruto would not have gone Kyuubi several times in his training.
    I believe it was shown during Naruto's training that that was what Yamato was doing. That's why he was constantly meditating within those wooden poles. That's what I see he was doing at that point in time.

    It's already known that Mokuton can control the tailed beasts and Yamato can use Mokuton. I would therefore think that Yamato can control the tailed beasts at least to an extent. Unless stated by the manga, I believe that he can.

    As for the times that the Kyuubi took control, It think that just proves that Yamato is still not as strong as Hashirama.


    Points for effort.

    Gravity does not come from nowhere though. If you want to move something with gravity you need a big strong enough force, strong enough gravity.

    Nagato creates the effect with his chakra. It is established that the bigger the effect the more chakra he needs.

    Otherwise you are arguing Nagato can move the entire earth with no problem.
    I don't merely believe that Nagato is using his chakra to produce gravity, but to bend its effects and use it according to his will thereby bypassing much of its requirements. I have stated Nagato probably had great chakra, I stated this in one of my posts with Remydat. However I think he is getting far more power for less investment in chakra than many of the other ninja(extremeley cost effective) in the manga especially given the type of jutsus he is using and the eyes he has.


    And linking to other fictional works is downright useless for this.
    I don't see it that way, since it enables the reader to view the possibilities and commonalities between Nagato's abilities and other fictional works.

    His sharingan jutsu that were killing him, because he wasn't strong enough?

    Even then, Kakashi has admitted Sasuke has greater chakra than him.
    In my point of view, Sasuke's problem with his eyes was not due to lack of chakra since he was able to resolve the problem with his eyes by obtaining the eyes of Itachi. If it was caused by his lack of chakra, I doubt that the transplant would have helped.


    I still view Sasuke's abilties as incredibly cost effective despite his chakra levels being greater than Kakashi, since I see no indication of it proving otherwise. In fact, seeing Kakashi using the Sharinggan in many battles effectively despite his limited chakra levels, being a none Uchiha and inability to shut it down to conserve chakra makes me think that the Sharinggan is just a very cost effective tool or weapon.




    Tsunade's strength doesn't come from chakra control. Sakura's does. Which also does not mean she is using little chakra to do it. In fact, it is more reasonable to assume the greater the feat of strength the more chakra she needed for it.

    Which of course doesn't address the point of how does creating a gravity well that produces strong enough force to rip out mountains doesn't require lots of chakra when it is blatantly pointed out it does.


    There was this one time in Rumbles when a guy was claiming Terrax didn't bust a planet because he was using his earth powers to do it.

    This is reminding me of that time.


    Also, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying chakra levels> All. There are different types of ninja and they all have ways of overcoming their weaknesses.

    However, power types are power types, and arguing that a power type is not, in fact, a power type seems just silly.

    Oonoki, Nagato, Naruto, A. They are all guys that use lots of chakra, to get lots of power out of the deal.

    Kabuto, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato. They use clever techniques and have cool tricks to fight. Though it should be noted, even those guys have larger than normal reserves.


    Are you sure about Tsunade's strength. I thought being Sakura's teacher their abilities would come from the same technique. If that's the case then I would still put Sakura as a prime example.

    As for 'arguing that a power type is not in fact a power type', doesn't seem to be the case. If you look back at my previous posts, my discussion stems from determining the level of chakra that Naruto would have had without the Kyuubi. And that's why the cost effectiveness of the varous jutsus are being taken into account. And given the massive alterations to Nagato's body, the jutsus he uses and the Rinnegan he had, I considered Nagato a bad benchmark to determine how an unaltered non jinchuriki Naruto would be like.



    As for Kabuto, Sasuke and Minato showing high levels of chakra, I will still state my earlier view that they woud still be unable to show the massive amounts of chakra that Naruto has demonstrated throughout the manga. And if Naruto had grown up without Kurama, his chakra levels would be close to their levels.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 07:35 AM.
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  11. #3326
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    I believe it was shown during Naruto's training that that was what Yamato was doing. That's why he was constantly meditating within those wooden poles. As for the times that the Kyuubi took control, It think that just proves that Yamato is still not as strong as Hashirama.
    I disagree and would wonder in what strange ways your mind works but I already know so meh.

    I don't merely believe that Nagato is using his chakra to produce gravity, but to bend its effects and use it according to his will thereby bypassing much of its requirements. I have stated Nagato probably had great chakra, I stated this in one of my posts with Remydat. However I think he is getting far more power for less investment in chakra than many of the other ninja(extremeley cost effective) in the manga especially given the type of jutsus he is using and the eyes he has.
    Okay so first, you drag scientific facts... then you utterly discarded them because gravity does not work out that way. It seriously doesn't.

    I mean really, show a single Naruto scan that says controlling gravity has a relatively low cost. A single one. Which is what I asked you earlier and you have yet to provide.

    I don't see it that way, since it enables the reader to view the possibilities and commonalities between Nagato's abilities and other fictional works.
    Elaborate how do they, in any way, related to Naruto.

    I still view Sasuke's abilties as incredibly cost effective despite his chakra levels being greater than Kakashi, since I see no indication of it proving otherwise. In fact, seeing Kakashi using the Sharinggan in many battles effectively despite his limited chakra levels, being a none Uchiha and inability to shut it down to conserve chakra makes me think that the Sharinggan is just a very cost effective tool or weapon.
    Not really. They are useful tricks. They probably don't cost as much chakra to use as stuff like a bijuu bomb obviously, but you can't really compare them to Deva Path, because they aren't raw power techniques.

    Are you sure about Tsunade's strength. I thought being Sakura's teacher their abilities would come from the same technique. If that's the case then I would still put Sakura as a prime example.
    Databook lists the trick Sakura is using as her original technique, so yes Tsunade doesn't use it. Tsunade's strength is natural. Apparently having the body of the Sage gave every single Senjuu weird powers of some type.

    Also I fail to see what Sakura is a prime example of.

    As for 'arguing that a power type is not in fact a power type', doesn't seem to be the case. If you look back at my previous posts, my discussion stems from determining the level of chakra that Naruto would have had without the Kyuubi. And that's why the cost effectiveness of the varous jutsus are being taken into account.
    Yes, but when you argue that ripping mountains from the ground does not require lots of chakra because you're manipulating gravity... well do you not see how silly it is?

    As for Kabuto, Sasuke and Minato showing high levels of chakra, I will still state my earlier view that they woud still be unable to show the massive amounts of chakra that Naruto has demonstrated throughout the manga.
    I never said they had. However if you compare them to the average ninja, they certainly are above the rest.

  12. #3327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post

    Okay so first, you drag scientific facts... then you utterly discarded them because gravity does not work out that way. It seriously doesn't.
    If you looke carefully at the examples I gave, I showed how being able to manipulate gravity can have a great impact on the amount of effort to do immensely powerful acts.



    I mean really, show a single Naruto scan that says controlling gravity has a relatively low cost. A single one. Which is what I asked you earlier and you have yet to provide.
    I stand by my case considering there is nothing in the manga to mention that bijuu level chakra is needed to control gravity.







    Elaborate how do they, in any way, related to Naruto.

    I find great similarity between Nagato and other fictional characters such as Magneto, who's able to manipulate magnetism. And many of these characters have little trouble moving items of great mass or weight because their powers nullifies the very forces to oppose movement.

    Drawing parallels between fictional works helps in finding common themes and ideas that writers use.



    Not really. They are useful tricks. They probably don't cost as much chakra to use as stuff like a bijuu bomb obviously, but you can't really compare them to Deva Path, because they aren't raw power techniques.
    Just becuse deva path was able to do such a high level of damage doesn't necessarily reflect that the chakra requirement is close to the same amount as that of the bijuu bomb.

    As I stated previously, the type of tool or leverage is also important. I draw parallels between a nuclear weapon. A small nuclear device can be more devastating than hundreds of kilograms of tnt.


    The same can be applied to what Deva Pain did, especially with the ability to manipulate gravity.



    Databook lists the trick Sakura is using as her original technique, so yes Tsunade doesn't use it. Tsunade's strength is natural. Apparently having the body of the Sage gave every single Senjuu weird powers of some type.

    Also I fail to see what Sakura is a prime example of.
    Sakura is a prime example of how special jutsusa nd techniques can enchance power and effectiveness with minmal requirement of chakra.Which I believe Nagato was demonstrating at a greater extent.





    Yes, but when you argue that ripping mountains from the ground does not require lots of chakra because you're manipulating gravity... well do you not see how silly it is?
    Being able to control gravity means the ability to manipulate the mass and thereby the wieght of objects.


    I would also add that it doesn't determine how much chakra is being used. Saying a lot really depends on many factors. An a lot for some can be little for others. For example, even if Nagato would run out of chakra from his techniques doesn't automatically imply that Naruto; who has the Kyubi within hin would have had the same problem.










    I never said they had. However if you compare them to the average ninja, they certainly are above the rest.
    The level of chakra would still be no where near bijuu levels and I doubt the disparity would be that far beyond the levels of average ninja.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 08:22 AM.
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  13. #3328
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    I think we must remember that the more chakra Naruto tugged away from Kurama the more chakra he had at his disposal. And I distinctly remember Naruto himself continually absorbing more and more of Kurama's chakra as the battle went on.

    From the way I see it, Kurama loses control of his chakra once someone else takes it away from him, especially with the way that battle progressed.

    As for Kurama's stupidity, I think we should also remember that Kurama was but just a captive then. I doubt a prisoner with Kurama's disposition would let the chance of freedom slip by. I also have difficulty thinking that any prisoner would let the chance slip by. I also wonder how much of a choice Kurama had.
    "Trap its chakra with your own and rip it out. Grab the Fox and latch your own chakra onto his from there it is a tug of war. Keep pulling until the rope makes it all the way to youd side" That is what Bee said the goal was in chapter 496 page 14-15. There was absolutely no mention of Naruto absorbing or using that chakra. It would not have been described as a tug of war if the idea was Naruto was absorbing and using that chakra because in a tug of war you don't get to use the people on the other side once you pull them over to your said. And when you trap something, it is trapped ie contained not absorbed and used.

    In addition, Naruto uses all shorts of abilities including two massive attacks like Sage Art Rasengan and Wind Element Wind Spiral Shuriken before any indication is given that he has made any leeway in the tug of war. In fact when Naruto then says Kurama is weak after those attacks and tries to draw out his chakra, Kurama pulls out Naruto's chakra instead. His chakra levels drop dangerously which is precisely why his mother appears because he is losing the battle. After their talk Kushina uses her chakra to hold Kurama down and it is then that Naruto summons a shitload of Kage Bushin to perform the Rasengan barrage. At that point there is no indication he has taken any chakra from 9 tails because again, he was losing to the point his mother had to appear and hold Kurama down. So that massive use of Kage Bushin is clearly with Naruto using just his chakra. He also goes into Sage Mode and then performs Sage Art Non-Stop Gargantuan Rasengan Barrage. He then does it one more time and Kurama specifically says on page 9 of chapter 499, "How is he so powerful." I am pretty sure if Naruto was stealing and using his chakra Kurama would not say that because he would know the answer. It is only after those attacks that the manga gives any indication that he has started to trap Kurama's chakra.

    Now if you go read those chapters and still think that somehow Naruto was using Kurama's chakra then like I said agree to disagree. I don't see how that can be interpreted from the way the fight transpired but you are free to believe what you want to believe.
    Last edited by remydat; 01-01-2013 at 08:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    "Trap its chakra with your own and rip it out. Grab the Fox and latch your own chakra onto his from there it is a tug of war. Keep pulling until the rope makes it all the way to youd side" That is what Bee said the goal was in chapter 496 page 14-15. There was absolutely no mention of Naruto absorbing or using that chakra. It would not have been described as a tug of war if the idea was Naruto was absorbing and using that chakra because in a tug of war you don't get to use the people on the other side once you pull them over to your said. And when you trap something, it is trapped ie contained not absorbed and used.

    In addition, Naruto uses all shorts of abilities including two massive attacks like Sage Art Rasengan and Wind Element Wind Spiral Shuriken before any indication is given that he has made any leeway in the tug of war. In fact when Naruto then says Kurama is weak after those attacks and tries to draw out his chakra, Kurama pulls out Naruto's chakra instead. His chakra levels drop dangerously which is precisely why his mother appears because he is losing the battle. After their talk Kushina uses her chakra to hold Kurama down and it is then that Naruto summons a shitload of Kage Bushin to perform the Rasengan barrage. At that point there is no indication he has taken any chakra from 9 tails because again, he was losing to the point his mother had to appear and hold Kurama down. So that massive use of Kage Bushin is clearly with Naruto using just his chakra. He also goes into Sage Mode and then performs Sage Art Non-Stop Gargantuan Rasengan Barrage. He then does it one more time and Kurama specifically says on page 9 of chapter 499, "How is he so powerful." I am pretty sure if Naruto was stealing and using his chakra Kurama would not say that because he would know the answer. It is only after those attacks that the manga gives any indication that he has started to trap Kurama's chakra.

    Now if you go read those chapters and still think that somehow Naruto was using Kurama's chakra then like I said agree to disagree. I don't see how that can be interpreted from the way the fight transpired but you are free to believe what you want to believe.

    Again, you should remember that many of those techniques such as the rasenshuriken and sage art gargantuan rasengan made use of sage mode. In 496, Naruto also did not use that many Kagebunshin, the chapter seems to indicate it to be less than 10. The appearance of Kushina occurs just after he had tugged out a portion of the 9 tails chakra(497, page 10) and was infected by its hatred.(after Naruto had hit it with rasenshuriken which is a sage technique). Chapter 497 page 11-17.

    (Take not that Kushina seemed to be viewable within Naruto's 'inner mind.' )


    In chapter 498 page 6, Kushina's chakra chains emerged from Naruto's body which bind the Kyuubi in place while Naruto was still connected to the Kyuubi via a line of chakra that it had tugged out( the one from 497, page 10). That line of chakra is cleansed in chapter 499 page 3 enabling Naruto to absorb it. At 499 page 4 he then uses hundreds of clones to attack and absorb more and more of the Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto absorbs it at page 499 page 12.

    If Naruto was unable to use the chakra he takes from the Kyuubi then Naruto's endeavor to fight the Kyuubi had no purpose, imo.








    Also the appearance
    Last edited by flashdisk; 01-01-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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  15. #3330
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    If you looke carefully at the examples I gave, I showed how being able to manipulate gravity can have a great impact on the amount of effort to do immensely powerful acts.
    And that's not what I asked.

    This is a Naruto manga. Give me Naruto facts.

    Don't just cherry pick science when it suits you and discard it when it doesn't.

    I stand by my case considering there is nothing in the manga to mention that bijuu level chakra is needed to control gravity.
    And that's not what I asked.

    I find great similarity between Nagato and other fictional characters such as Magneto, who's able to manipulate magnetism. And many of these characters have little trouble moving items of great mass or weight because their powers nullifies the very forces to oppose movement.
    And this relates to Nagato's chakra capacity how?

    Drawing parallels between fictional works helps in finding common themes and ideas that writers use.
    I supposed Nagato had the x-gene all along too, right?

    Just becuse deva path was able to do such a high level of damage doesn't necessarily reflect that the chakra requirement is close to the same amount as that of the bijuu bomb.
    No. I will agree on that. It is still an absurd amount of chakra by any standard.

    Except Juubi's, but he doesn't count and the Sage too I guess.

    As I stated previously, the type of tool or leverage is also important. I draw parallels between a nuclear weapon. A small nuclear device can be more devastating than hundreds of kilograms of tnt.
    Which again, doesn't matter.

    The same can be applied to what Deva Pain did, especially with the ability to manipulate gravity.
    Not it can't. At least you have yet to provided proof from the manga that it can't.

    But if you want to go get some X-Men comics and show them to us, suit yourself.

    Sakura is a prime example of how special jutsusa nd techniques can enchance power and effectiveness with minmal requirement of chakra.Which I believe Nagato was demonstrating at a greater extent.
    Nah. Sakura still needs chakra to do what she does. She controls it well, but she still doesn't get nowhere near the bang of the high level guys.

    Being able to control gravity means the ability to manipulate the mass and thereby the wieght of objects.
    Not in a way that remotely help your argument.

    I would also add that it doesn't determine how much chakra is being used. Saying a lot really depends on many factors. An a lot for some can be little for others. For example, even if Nagato would run out of chakra from his techniques doesn't automatically imply that Naruto; who has the Kyubi within hin would have had the same problem.
    Call me when Naruto (Not with Kurama) shows comparable power to ripping out mountains from the ground.

    The level of chakra would still be no where near bijuu levels and I doubt the disparity would be that far beyond the levels of average ninja.
    To the first sentence, So? You seem to think this is an all or nothing game. It isn't.

    Not having tailed beast chakra doesn't automatically put you in the same boat as everyone else. Chapter one Sakura is no the same as Chapter one Sasuke, who is no the same as Kakashi who is not the as old man Saru and so on.
    Last edited by Hazard; 01-01-2013 at 09:01 AM.

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