Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[remydat]

...One of these people tossed meteors to nuke the battlefield and required a Kage team-up to stop any given move he made. The others are Obito, Itachi and Pain.

Pain's most powerful move nuked Konoha and left him exhausted. Madara creates just about equivalent destruction by swinging his Susano-O's sword in his target's general direction.

I thought the Edo Tensei is what gave Madara unlimited chakra reserves which is why he didn't get tired. Having said that, there is a difference between fighting a large scale battle and fighting one on one. Unless we are assuming all 6 Pains are nicely gathered in one spot and Madara blows them up while they are gingerly walking together to the battlefield, any battle that starts with them within a reasonable distance of Madara means a huge scale attack is pretty pointless as Madara would be in the blast radius. Or I suspose the other option is blowing up Nagato whereever he is chilling and controlling the 6 Pains.

However, a logical scenario is the 6 Pains approaching and attacking Madara from several directions so that they can not all be taken out by a single attack. Again, I am not saying they woud definitely win but big flashy attacks are like say a nuclear weapon which is not ideal in a one on one battle. Right now most of what we have seen from Madara is the big flashy attack against groups of enemies concentrated in a single area.

Put it like this, if you play role playing games like Mass Effect, there are characters that are better at crowd control and there are characters better at taking out a single enemy. I have no doubt Madara excels at both but I have seen more evidence of the former than I have of the latter. And I haven't seen examples of the latter that far outstrip what Pain, Itachi or Obito can do in a one on one battle.

[Siriel]

I thought the Edo Tensei is what gave Madara unlimited chakra reserves which is why he didn't get tired.

The issue is that we otherwise have no idea how much chakra Madara has, beside "lots".

[remydat]

The issue is that we otherwise have no idea how much chakra Madara has, beside "lots".

Agreed and until we do as I said I think those guys are on par. Again, that is not a statement saying they are better or definitely his equal. Just that they exist somewhere in the same ballpark as Madara. That could easily prove to be an incorrect assumption but again, I haven't seen enough of Madara one on one to say it is.

[Totoro Man]

I assume that when remydat thinks the original form of Madara couldn't defeat Pein-- that he's talking about the non-upgraded version that lost to the First Hokage and was left for dead. speaking of which, has the First Hokage done anything that could convincingly defeat any version of Madara? Madara kept talking about how nobody was as good as the First-- and yet all of the people he was casually owning on the battlefield have a more impressive array of combat feats than anything we've seen from the First.

[remydat]

I assume that when remydat thinks the original form of Madara couldn't defeat Pein-- that he's talking about the non-upgraded version that lost to the First Hokage and was left for dead. speaking of which, has the First Hokage done anything that could convincingly defeat any version of Madara? Madara kept talking about how nobody was as good as the First-- and yet all of the people he was casually owning on the battlefield have a more impressive array of combat feats than anything we've seen from the First.

Wait. I never said Madara couldn't defeat Pain. I simply said I think Itachi, Obito, Pain and Madara are in a class above the rest of the Ninjas and are on par with each other. If either those guys fought each other one on one, it would not be impluasible or require some massive plot device for them to come out on top but I would still rank Madara #1 overall if I was forced to rank them.

And I think the upgraded Madara added a bunch of nuclear weapon type abilities ie large scale attacks which I don't think are that effective in a one on one battle. I don't think he has any one on one battle techniques that far surpass any of the guess above aside from the unlimited chakra his Edo Tensei provides. Again I think people are confusing crowd control type mega attacks with attacks designed to kill a single person. There are different things.

[remydat]

As an aside, has it ever been confirmed how old Itachi is in relation to Obito, Kakashi and Guy. Am I correct in assuming Itachi was a generation or two after those guys ie he is late teens to early twenties while Obito, Kakashi and Guy are mid to late twenties. Just trying to figure out as I don't recall any indication that those 3 guys had a relationship with Itachi prior to the begining fo the manga. I know Itachi kept to himself but if Obito, Kakashi and Guy are older, then it seems we have a bit of a generation gap as there seems to be a dearth of ninjas that would have went through the ninja school with Itachi in the managa.

[Hazard]

Itachi is definitely younger. He was still very much a kid (6 tops) during the Kyuubi attack compared to Kakashi and Gai who were clearly teenagers.

Kabuto is probably the closest guy to his age group, but he probably didn't go to ninja school with him, due to Itachi graduating way too early.

[remydat]

Itachi is definitely younger. He was still very much a kid (6 tops) during the Kyuubi attack compared to Kakashi and Gai who were clearly teenagers.

Kabuto is probably the closest guy to his age group, but he probably didn't go to ninja school with him, due to Itachi graduating way too early.

Yeah that is what I thought which is why I wonder who Itachis peers are. His age bracket seems to be missing from the manga.

[Siriel]

His age bracket probably consist of ANBU members and offscreen guys.

So they have in fact been in the manga from the start...getting killed like mooks.

[remydat]

Yeah I meant missing from a prominence standpoint. Just seems like everyone else in Konoha has one or two people who came through the ninja schools with them that actually feature prominently in the book. Even older groups you have sarutobi and danzo or tsunade and jiraiya. Just noticed that.

[1505627]

i believe itachi is stated to be twenty one in part two. could be wrong on that

[Siriel]

Life in Konoha's ANBU - More or less fits all primary requirements. An AU in which Naruto is personally trained by Sarutobi and joins ANBU early on. Naruto is considerably more varied in terms of skillset, but perhaps less powerful overall. Current fic timeframe is before the Chuunin Exams, but the fic has not done much of anything with the fox. Current story length: 170,000 words.

So, I've been reading this and am currently at chapter 24. (the most recent)

I rather enjoy it. It makes Naruto much better at this ninja thing, but without going into godmode.

I especially enjoy how it made Hidan not be utter fail. (I mean, still Hidan, but he was better.)

Giving Tsunade a chance to shine, instead of getting owned by Kabuto in her first fight, was also really nice.

Using filler arcs to build up Akatsuki's appearance and members was also a good thing, in my opinion. I don't know if that was in the anime filler/movies, but foreshadowing Pain a bit more certainly help build up tension.

spoilers:

"Tobi"'s cameo was especially nice.

end of spoilers

On Naruto himself, I rather enjoy the fact that the author takes into account how much being trained from a young age would change him. Some similarities to pre-massacre Itachi are present and acknowledged in-story.

Overall, I'd recommend it.

[Siriel]

i believe itachi is stated to be twenty one in part two. could be wrong on that

Itachi was seven when he graduated, 13 when he became an ANBU captain, seventeen or eighteen in part one and twenty-one when he died.

[Kamina]

Naruto's own worth as a ninja is being argued. Kurama has helped him, but he has handicapped him. Saying Naruto has no worth as a ninja without Kurama is faulty.

Then you came in, gave a scenario and proclaimed "Game, set, match".

Grrgh. Alright, guess I walked in half-cocked, I'll accept that. Nothing more to add.

Except for this because I got a kick out of it.

[flashdisk]

Yes but again, the Uzumakis chakra is what made them the best hosts. There is no way to effecitvely tell exactly how much chakra they had or how they rank when compared to each other.

If you say that then I think that would undermine your next statements about there being 'crappy Uzumaki's', since as you stated there would be 'no way to effectively how much chakra they had or how they rank when compared to each other".


Be reminded, that my dialogue with Ghost was an attempt to determine what chakra levels Naruto would have had without the Kyuubi. I doubt that just saying that Uzumaki's would be the best host would mean that they would naturally have close to the massive chakra levels Naruto has revealed in the past chapters. In chapter 315 for example, it is known that Naruto requires Kyuubi's chakra for the Taiju Kagebunshin no jutsu(the technique he normally uses).

After all, Uzumaki's are just being compared to other normal ninja; and average ninja don't really have an incredibly high chakra benchmark. So I think saying that the Uzumaki's have extraordinary chakra levels when compared to other ninja is a far cry from saying that they would have had close to the same levels of chakra, comparable to that of a jinchuriki.

It is a fact though that Mito Uzumaki was able to chain the 9 tails in her because of her chakra. It is a fact that Kushina was chosen to be the next host because she was the best Uzumaki for the job due to her chakra as she was only distantly related to Mito so if there was a better Uzumaki more closely related to Mito they would have used him/her. So Naruto is descended from not just some random Uzumaki but the Uzumaki that Mito determined had the best chakra for the job.

From what I recall the Kyuubi was already captured by the 1st Hokage prior to the sealin, so I'm unsure whether that says anything about Mito's ability to chain the 9 tails. It seems to be jus an effective sealing techniqe( such as fuinjutsu), it doesn't seem to directly indicate an immense chakra level.(at least compared to what Naruto shows as a jinchuriki)

Karin to me is irrelevant. Just like there are crappy Uchiha's there are bound to be crappy Uzumakis so I don't even care to discuss her chakra levels. As for Nagato, again you can speculate to no end exactly how much he had but it is clear the dude had to have some pretty massive chakra levels. Either way, in relation to her specific ability to handle the 9 tails, Kushina was essentially the equivalent of Itachi ie she was the best the Uzumaki's had to offer with respect to that special skill (ie having the chakra to contain the 9 tails) just as Itachi was the best Uchia in terms of his clan.

I'm unsure but you seem to be discarding the only Uzumaki that doesn't have a tailed beast or Rinnegan; Karin. For all intents and purposes Karin would be the most valid benchmark of a naturally born Uzumaki, since she's the most unaltered of them. We have to remember that Nagato himself had Madara's eyes; the legendary Rinnegan transplanted into him. Nagato may have had immense chakra when compared to other ninja, but his extraordinary feats may have been more to do with the effectiveness of the Rinnegan rather than his own chakra reserves.