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  1. #3271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    There is no "maybe-ish". I cannot think of any way that you would have an AU Kurama-less Naruto win against Pain if Pain is not tired from soloing Konoha, short of making stuff up.
    Remember, Naruto WITH Kyuubi lost against Pain. He only managed to win because Hinata showing up and almost dying caused him to almost release Kyuubi. And THAT only failed to happen because Minato sealed a part of himself into the seal.
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    Several things:

    - IIRC, Kyuubi chakra screwed up his own ability to access/control his chakra until the start of the series, which would suggest that he'd have mastered his jutsus a lot earlier without it (though he might not have gotten access to Kage Bunshin until later if he didn't have Mizuki's hate and a record as a failure to manipulate him with.

    - Minato flat out said that the reason he could handle Kyuubi's chakra was because of his own naturally insane chakra levels, as shown when he did the clone training for the Rasen-shuriken, where he was flat out being sealed any time any of his clones started tapping into Kyuubi's chakra. Heck, Kakashi said that he had less chakra than even one of the 3 non-Kyuubi enhanced clones that he used to form the original Rasen-shuriken.

    - Without Kyuubi's chakra, the Sage Mode becomes a lot more effective because he could have the two grandparent frogs on his shoulders absorbing and channeling Sage chakra into him, like they did for Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode, which means he'd probably have access to more Sennin jutsu, like the very effective Frog Song. You remember how effective Jiraiya was against Pain? Now add in several clones, possibly with several others sucking in Sage Chakra as well, with

    - And of course, without Kyuubi, Pain wouldn't really come after Naruto first. Or if he does come to Konoha, it'll be after Kushina or something, which means that Pain would have to deal with Sage Naruto, Jinchuuriki Kushina, Minato, Kakashi, and possibly Tsunade/Sarutobi/Jiraiya/whatever other cast members may have survived to that point. And if Kyuubi is still inside Kushina, then the Uchiha probably haven't been suspected or exterminated, which means an entire extra clan, with possibly Itachi (assuming he didn't die of Generic Illness by then) and Sasuke-sans-stick-up-butt.

    As for Sarutobi's lackluster performance, I blame the series' power creep. Pre-timeskip, Sarutobi was very important for managing to seal Orochimaru's arms despite being old and ganged up on, and the importance of that feat has gone on until at least Sasuke's killing of Orochimaru the first time around.
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  3. #3273
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    - And of course, without Kyuubi, Pain wouldn't really come after Naruto first.
    This was something that I kept on thinking about bringing up more directly but never did. It's so flawed to say that same storyline Naruto minus Kurama would be in the same storyline fight when the storyline has been so drastically altered that we pretty much have to toss the whole thing out unless we go by the previously stated "losing your sword right before you stab" scenario which is a blatant hateraid inspired scenario.
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  4. #3274
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    I found an old thread on Rumbles back in 2011, where we tried to determine the top ten most powerful Naruto characters and Madara (really Obito) was never one of the top three.

    It's really amusing to look at something Naruto and not see Madara at number one, now that we know...well, Madara.
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  5. #3275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I thought it was established to be something he inherited from Kushina - something about people with red hair having extra powerful life-force?
    I'm not really sure. But I doubt Kushina would be a useful example because she too was a jinchuriki prior to Naruto. It's my opinion that whatever changes that happened to Naruto may have happened to her previously.

    The only other examples of a non-jinchuriki Uzumaki are Karin and Pain. Pain is immensely powerful but he didn't really show the same level of chakra as Naruto(The sudden and somewhat unexpected bursts of power due to emotions). The same goes for Karin. Kabuto who is supposedly part Uzumaki now had many alterations to his body that could have enhanced his Uzumaki abilities. And even then, he did not show the sudden bursts of power that Naruto had displayed previously.


    Looking back. I think one of the advantages Kurama provided Naruto with, perhaps unknowingly was unpredictability.


    In no way do I want to discredit Naruto as a ninja. And he could have been an immensely powerful ninja without Kurama. But I also think that the major themes of the manga include friendship, cooperation and collaboration with others. And one of those 'others' is Kurama as well. Kurama is one of the pieces of the puzzle that helped make Naruto the hero.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 12-31-2012 at 12:27 AM.
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  6. #3276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamina View Post
    What's the issue at hand then, cause I'm a bit lost. I remember this:







    Someone was saying that Naruto was "nothing" without Kurama, and this was getting on someone's nerves. I first responded suggesting someone should write a fan fic about it, then tried to infer that Naruto, while not useless without Kurama, would not make it past a certain point. Then you said I was ignoring the various changes that would occur as a result of removing Kurama. Then I tried to gloss over that because while I didn't disagree that there would be alterations, I didn't believe Naruto would make it that far on his own. I must have misread something or accidentally changed my answer somewhere around this point.

    So what's really being argued?

    Naruto's status without Kurama? How far he would get? Or what events would naturally happen without Kurama?

    My current answer to the first two:

    He's a quick-study.
    He wouldn't make it past Pain.
    I will make it simple. Without Kurama, Naruto learns the Flying Thunder God Technique from Minato and powerful sealing techniques from Kushina. FTGT allows him to teleport all over the battlefield kicking the various Pain's asses and his sealing techniques allows him to lock those Pain's away if possible.
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  7. #3277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    I found an old thread on Rumbles back in 2011, where we tried to determine the top ten most powerful Naruto characters and Madara (really Obito) was never one of the top three.

    It's really amusing to look at something Naruto and not see Madara at number one, now that we know...well, Madara.
    To be fair, Tobidara really only had one real trick. An effective trick, but a single trick nonetheless. Compared to the Third Raikage, Mu the second Tsuchikage, and the Second Mizukage, well, you can see why Tobidara wasn't considered for the top 3.

    MADARA, on the other hand, is #0 on the scale of ten strongest Naruto characters. He's Broly from Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan movie, with the rest of our cast being Krillin, with Naruto, Killer Bee, Kakashi, and Gai being the Super Saiyans/Piccolo from the same movie.
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  8. #3278
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    To be fair, Tobidara really only had one real trick. An effective trick, but a single trick nonetheless. Compared to the Third Raikage, Mu the second Tsuchikage, and the Second Mizukage, well, you can see why Tobidara wasn't considered for the top 3.
    Oh, I know. I wasn't disagreeing.

    It's just funny because we called him Madara back then. So the rankings have stuff like Pain and Itachi being ranked above 'Madara'. So when you look back on it while knowing about Obito and the real Madara, it leads to "what." before you realize when the thread was made.
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  9. #3279
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashdisk View Post
    The only other examples of a non-jinchuriki Uzumaki are Karin and Pain. Pain is immensely powerful but he didn't really show the same level of chakra as Naruto(The sudden and somewhat unexpected bursts of power due to emotions). The same goes for Karin. Kabuto who is supposedly part Uzumaki now had many alterations to his body that could have enhanced his Uzumaki abilities. And even then, he did not show the sudden bursts of power that Naruto had displayed previously.
    Kushina's chakra was powerful enough to create chains to restrain the 9 tails. Again, I think it was stated that is the reason why they were good hosts. The Uzumaki's had the gift of incredibly strong lifeforce which gave them long life and I believe huge chakra. Mito Uzumaki who was Hashirama's wife and the first host of the 9 tails lived through the first 3 Hokages.

    And Pain fought an entire village, controlled 6 bodies and in the end still had enough chakra/lifeforce left to revive an entire village of people. The dude's chakra/lifeforce had to be pretty ridiculous for that.
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  10. #3280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Oh, I know. I wasn't disagreeing.

    It's just funny because we called him Madara back then. So the rankings have stuff like Pain and Itachi being ranked above 'Madara'. So when you look back on it while knowing about Obito and the real Madara, it leads to "what." before you realize when the thread was made.
    To be fair though, I think it could be argued that Pain and Itachi are on par with Obito and a non-Edo Tensei Madara. It's not like there is a massive difference in class there.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  11. #3281
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    To be fair though, I think it could be argued that Pain and Itachi are on par with Obito and a non-Edo Tensei Madara. It's not like there is a massive difference in class there.
    You mean current Madara minus his edo tensei regeneration? Yeah... No. Itachi and Pein aren't on par with him. He has every power they have, but better, PLUS the Mokuton.
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  12. #3282
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Kushina's chakra was powerful enough to create chains to restrain the 9 tails. Again, I think it was stated that is the reason why they were good hosts. The Uzumaki's had the gift of incredibly strong lifeforce which gave them long life and I believe huge chakra. Mito Uzumaki who was Hashirama's wife and the first host of the 9 tails lived through the first 3 Hokages.

    And Pain fought an entire village, controlled 6 bodies and in the end still had enough chakra/lifeforce left to revive an entire village of people. The dude's chakra/lifeforce had to be pretty ridiculous for that.
    That is a good point. But from my perspective, the chakra chains are more like Captain Yamato's binding techniqes or maybe that of the 1st Hokages. They certainly take a large amount of chakra, but not at the same scale as what Naruto has shown.

    Also I think whatever changes that being a jinchuriki offered still reflected in Kushina even after her death, especially with her still being within Naruto.

    As for Nagato's power, he certainly had great power. But it may just have been his eyes making effective and efficient use of the chakra he had. Those 6 bodies seem powerful, but I wonder how they compare to the countless(armies of) shadow clones that Naruto uses; each with their own immense reserves of chakra. I am also taking note that Pain's bodies also require some preparation before use.

    Furthermore, Naruto was displaying immense chakra during times of strong emotions, emotions which are known to pull out more of the nine tails own chakra. If the ability to suddenly generate immense chakra through sheer emotion was available to all Uzumaki, I did not see Karin and Pain/Nagato do so.


    I am also taking note of the information in the wiki:

    As Kurama's jinchūriki, Naruto's already considerable chakra reserve is greatly enhanced to enormous levels, to which Kakashi estimated it to be about a hundred times greater than his own when its influence is not suppressed
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki and chapter 315, page 11


    It was one of Kakashi's observations regarding Naruto during the Chuunin exams or during Naruto's training to master nature manipulation. So it's credibiltiy is partly based on Kakashi's skill in observation. It was also noted by Kakashi that Naruto's normal chakra reserves was about 2-4 times his own depending on the translation.

    Despite his young age, Naruto has been repeatedly noted to have a massive chakra reserve, to which Kakashi, estimated it to be at least four times greater than his own during their initial missions together as Team 7.
    http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki and Naruto chapter 315, page 11

    And we know that Kakashi can only use a few shadow clones; possibly one or two( and even then he stated there was a limit to how long he can hold them). I think that would give Naruto the ability to use more or less 10 shadow clones if he had grown without the Kyuubi; not the dozens or hundreds we've seen him use.

    Naruto is able to use this technique to the extremes that he does because of the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox sealed within him, which gives him an abnormally high chakra level. Even without Kurama's chakra, Naruto can make quite a few clones, but nowhere near on the level he can when he has access to the Nine-Tails' chakra. The clones, however, are apparently more susceptible to the Nine-Tails' influence and can begin to transform unexpectedly

    Added resource: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Clone_Technique
    I think much of the information is in chapter 315.



    Again, this is not to discredit Naruto as a ninja. I for one think that Naruto's alliance with Kurama was brought about by the love and sacrifice of Minato and Kushina; not to mention the compassion of Naruto himself. (love and compassion as the main attributes of a ninja is quite interesting)

    But it does show that Naruto would've been a very different ninja without Kurama, since the kagebunshin technique became the foundation of many of Naruto's current techniques that required nature transformation/manipulation and/or chakra shaping. A delay in his mastery of the technique or him not mastering it at all would have sent him on a very different trajectory. That would mean he would be unable to use(or set back the use of) the rasengan and it's more advanced forms; especially since he used kagebunshin to hasten his ability to learn nature transformation and chakra shaping.
    Last edited by flashdisk; 12-31-2012 at 07:13 AM.
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    Yes but again, the Uzumakis chakra is what made them the best hosts. There is no way to effecitvely tell exactly how much chakra they had or how they rank when compared to each other. It is a fact though that Mito Uzumaki was able to chain the 9 tails in her because of her chakra. It is a fact that Kushina was chosen to be the next host because she was the best Uzumaki for the job due to her chakra as she was only distantly related to Mito so if there was a better Uzumaki more closely related to Mito they would have used him/her. So Naruto is descended from not just some random Uzumaki but the Uzumaki that Mito determined had the best chakra for the job.

    Karin to me is irrelevant. Just like there are crappy Uchiha's there are bound to be crappy Uzumakis so I don't even care to discuss her chakra levels. As for Nagato, again you can speculate to no end exactly how much he had but it is clear the dude had to have some pretty massive chakra levels. Either way, in relation to her specific ability to handle the 9 tails, Kushina was essentially the equivalent of Itachi ie she was the best the Uzumaki's had to offer with respect to that special skill (ie having the chakra to contain the 9 tails) just as Itachi was the best Uchia in terms of his clan.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-31-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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  14. #3284
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dog View Post
    You mean current Madara minus his edo tensei regeneration? Yeah... No. Itachi and Pein aren't on par with him. He has every power they have, but better, PLUS the Mokuton.
    Well only one of Nagato and Madara can have the Rinnegan so I am assuming those eyes are still with Nagato. And again, I said it could be argued they are on par. I am not saying they are better or would definitely win. I think it is a closer battle than the ones we have seen Madara fight thus far.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  15. #3285
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    To be fair though, I think it could be argued that Pain and Itachi are on par with Obito and a non-Edo Tensei Madara. It's not like there is a massive difference in class there.
    ...One of these people tossed meteors to nuke the battlefield and required a Kage team-up to stop any given move he made. The others are Obito, Itachi and Pain.

    Pain's most powerful move nuked Konoha and left him exhausted. Madara creates just about equivalent destruction by swinging his Susano-O's sword in his target's general direction.
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