Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Eternal Torment]

Or even worse, what if baby Naruto fell into Orochimaru's hands?

[remydat]

I thought the whole reason Uzumakis ie Kushina's family was a good fit as hosts was because of their special chakra. Kushina used her own chakra to create the chakra chains powerful enough to restrain the 9 tails. I thought she passed that special chakra on to Naruto which is why he was best suited to be its host.

[Hazard]

Assuming J-Man doesn't get hit with the PIS Induced laziness he had over the time skip, Naruto becomes an utter beast under his training. I mean, just look at he did for Konan and them with no real problem and given Naruto learned the Kage Bushin well before he even knew how to use the Kyuubi at all, Naruto becomes Super Naruto even without the Kyuubi.

Come to think of it, that's another thing that can be attributed to Kyuubi. The three years training trip. Jiraya tried to get Naruto to master Kyuubi's chakra, to the point of even opening up the seal a little.

That backfired in epic proportions and ended up with an almost dead Jiraya and a Naruto that couldn't go two chapters without drawing on Kyuubi's chakra at the slightest provocation.

[remydat]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, because I'm not denying that circumstances could change the flow of events, but I also don't believe that should a certain flow of events occur would Naruto be able to defeat Pain without Kurama.

I should rephrase.

When I said "add in the variables" I was acknowledging the butterfly effect, but I should have separated it from the rest of that paragraph. Factor in the new educational opportunities, the lack of Kurama and thus the village not hating Naruto off the bat, and take him off Akatsuki's wanted list, and Naruto will probably improve twice as fast as his canon self. Like you said, we could have infinite scenarios here, some with Naruto's advantage, some without.

However, if I didn't add in the variables of Naruto's changed life - if I wrote the story and followed canon with Naruto taking the Chunin Exams, training with Jiraiya, learning Sage Mode - I don't believe he would survive against Pain without Kurama. I could set it up so that Kushina died as Kurama's host and took Kurama with her; Minato succumbed to his injuries, and the villagers believed what they wanted and still chose to demonize Naruto. And the significant change? Naruto didn't get Kurama, but his parents still died, and he still had a miserable childhood. Single point of departure.

Yes I suppose if you remove all the benefits of the 9 tails and leave all the drawbacks (ie it still wiping out his family and the villagers still hating him) then it makes Naruto's road tougher but that seems overly convenient doesn't it?

We can come up with all sorts of scenarios. In the end, the question is whether we want to be reasonable about things or not. I see no logical way for Naruto to not have the 9 tails unless his parents survived and it is still with Kushina. Otherwise, Minato would always opt to seal it inside his son.

And in the end, Naruto defeated Pain with his Jesus No Jutsu ie more with his words than he did with his powers. He just survived in battle long enough for his words to eventually reach Pain. So fine let's take away all the good things 9 tails provides and leave all the bad things. Well then I will just say Naruto focuses more on his Jesus no Jutsu and his eternal optimism and charm simply wins Pain over sooner than what occured in the manga.

[The Transient Guest]

Come to think of it, that's another thing that can be attributed to Kyuubi. The three years training trip. Jiraya tried to get Naruto to master Kyuubi's chakra, to the point of even opening up the seal a little.

That backfired in epic proportions and ended up with an almost dead Jiraya and a Naruto that couldn't go two chapters without drawing on Kyuubi's chakra at the slightest provocation.

That's not very fair dude. You have to handicap Naruto more and make sure everything goes the exact same, fox chakra training as well, so that Naruto can lose later on.

[Guy1]

Or even worse, what if baby Naruto fell into Orochimaru's hands?

That's it! Game over for everyone!

[flashdisk]

The Naruto without the Kyuubi would be a very different ninja, imo.

I for one think that Naruto's large chakra reserves is partly due to the Kyubi's chakra mixing with it and/or the constant demand of his chakra restraining that of the Kyubi.

I also see the Kyuubi to be as much of an influence in Naruto's life as that of his other friends and family. I think that excess chakra for example was what enabled Naruto to fend off that giant snake in the Chuunin exams, escape the mirrors of Haku and battle Gaara etc.

But that's not all. It was Naruto's attempts to master the 'beast' within him that helped him grow as a ninja. It was what pushed him to learn nature manipulation. It was also one of the reasons why he met Killerbee and made friends with Gaara. It was one of the reasons why he knew the pain of being a jinchuriki and was able to make friends with the bijuu such as the Hachibi. It was the very reason why the bijuu's decided to help him in these critical times. It was what enabled him to show compassion and understanding for others; without which he would never have reached the hearts of people such as Pain.


They may not have been friends from the very beginning, but I think the Kyuubi was one of the people that helped Naruto become Naruto. In the end Kurama actually made Naruto stronger not only in techniques but as a person.

[Kamina]

So before I pick apart the identical set up, exactly why do you think base Naruto isn't worth a shit? And why without Kurama there he would have the exact same chakra issues he normally does despite Kurama being the reason for those troubles?

It's not that I think base Naruto isn't worth a shit, nor was I doubting base Naruto's abilities. My original thought was that against Pain, an entire village, plus Sage Naruto, weren't enough to stop Pain initially, and that Kurama was the deciding factor in the battle. But that's not entirely correct, because Naruto's involvement took down all but one of Pain's bodies without Kurama's influence.

Looking at it that way, I still think that without Kurama, Naruto would lose here, bar him learning the Eight Gates due to the butterfly effect.

Well, to be perfectly fair, it's true that Naruto without Kurama probably dies against Pain.

Depending on who writes the story, any number of things could happen. Maybe Kurama-less Naruto will have better chakra control and thus better mastery of the Rasengan. Maybe he won't rely on the Shadow Clones (or steal the Forbidden Scroll), and thus, the tactics he uses in the fight against Pain won't be as effective without them.

You guys see how "maybe-ish" this is getting?

That's why I started that "biased, unfair scenario" where Naruto isn't the Jinchuriki, and his childhood follows the same path it did in canon. In which case, even if Naruto learned Sage Mode and was just as powerful as his canon self, he would lose because Pain was still able to tag/immobilize him in that instance.

[Hazard]

That's kind of an issue you have created though.

Basically, you say it is a 'Naruto grows without the Kyuubi' scenario.

But really what you are presenting is a 'right before the fight with Pain, we take the Kyuubi away from canon Naruto and see how it goes'.

Which ignores the issue at hand to the point of being kind of useless for judging Naruto's own talent and potential.

Edit: and because I missed this earlier.

That's not very fair dude. You have to handicap Naruto more and make sure everything goes the exact same, fox chakra training as well, so that Naruto can lose later on.

Alright, so Naruto is not the Kyuubi vessel but everyone thinks he is, even Jiraya; so he still tries teaching Naruto how to use Kyuubi's chakra for three years without any result. All the while marveling at Minato's seal skill, because damn he can't even find the thing in Naruto.

[Siriel]

Depending on who writes the story, any number of things could happen. Maybe Kurama-less Naruto will have better chakra control and thus better mastery of the Rasengan. Maybe he won't rely on the Shadow Clones (or steal the Forbidden Scroll), and thus, the tactics he uses in the fight against Pain won't be as effective without them.

You guys see how "maybe-ish" this is getting?

There is no "maybe-ish". I cannot think of any way that you would have an AU Kurama-less Naruto win against Pain if Pain is not tired from soloing Konoha, short of making stuff up.

Because, yes, Naruto has shown that when his Chakra issues (caused by Kurama) are overcome, he can learn complicated stuff pretty fast and has plenty of talent but that's not exactly equivalent to being able to beat Pain.

Now, if this theoretical AU Naruto shows up in the same situation as in canon (Pain just nuked Konoha), then yeah, maybe.

[Kamina]

Which ignores the issue at hand to the point of being kind of useless for judging Naruto's own talent and potential.

What's the issue at hand then, cause I'm a bit lost. I remember this:

Arp is really annoying to try and debate against.

He says NARUTO IS A LOSER BECAUSE HE HAD NO JUTSU.

He had no jutsu because no one taught him because he was hated.

You all agree that Naruto is not useless, and that he has potential. Can you also agree that without Kurama, Naruto would not have made it as far as he did, assuming the storyline followed the same route as it did in canon.

You are making the same assumption most AU fanfic writers do ... Fear the Butterfly.

Someone was saying that Naruto was "nothing" without Kurama, and this was getting on someone's nerves. I first responded suggesting someone should write a fan fic about it, then tried to infer that Naruto, while not useless without Kurama, would not make it past a certain point. Then you said I was ignoring the various changes that would occur as a result of removing Kurama. Then I tried to gloss over that because while I didn't disagree that there would be alterations, I didn't believe Naruto would make it that far on his own. I must have misread something or accidentally changed my answer somewhere around this point.

So what's really being argued?

Naruto's status without Kurama? How far he would get? Or what events would naturally happen without Kurama?

My current answer to the first two:

He's a quick-study.
He wouldn't make it past Pain.

[Hazard]

What's the issue at hand then, cause I'm a bit lost. I remember this:

Someone was saying that Naruto was "nothing" without Kurama, and this was getting on someone's nerves. I first responded suggesting someone should write a fan fic about it, then tried to infer that Naruto, while not useless without Kurama, would not make it past a certain point. Then you said I was ignoring the various changes that would occur as a result of removing Kurama. Then I tried to gloss over that because while I didn't disagree that there would be alterations, I didn't believe Naruto would make it that far on his own. I must have misread something or accidentally changed my answer somewhere around this point.

So what's really being argued?

Naruto's status without Kurama? How far he would get? Or what events would naturally happen without Kurama?

My current answer to the first two:

He's a quick-study.
He wouldn't make it past Pain.

Naruto's own worth as a ninja is being argued. Kurama has helped him, but he has handicapped him. Saying Naruto has no worth as a ninja without Kurama is faulty.

Then you came in, gave a scenario and proclaimed "Game, set, match".

Thing is, your scenario doesn't address the discussed points.

You are not imagining a Naruto that grew up without Kurama, and how would Naruto develop as a ninja as a result of that. You're imagining a canon Naruto who suddenly lost Kurama at a crucial point where he needed him.

Kind of like your sword disappearing right as you were about to stab someone, get it? That's basically what you propose to support your argument.

So while you want to ignore those changes, those changes are exactly what matter.

I guess you can say that what is currently being argued is that your scenario is faulty.

[Ghost]

I for one think that Naruto's large chakra reserves is partly due to the Kyubi's chakra mixing with it and/or the constant demand of his chakra restraining that of the Kyubi.

I thought it was established to be something he inherited from Kushina - something about people with red hair having extra powerful life-force?

[Siriel]

I thought it was established to be something he inherited from Kushina - something about people with red hair having extra powerful life-force?

Kabuto mentioned that all the Uzumaki had red hair and a powerful life-force, when he mentioned that he'd stolen Karin's healing ability.

That doesn't really say anything about Chakra or, well, much of anything.

[Hazard]

Chakra and lifeforce can be taken to be interchangeable though, or at the very least closely related.

Dying when you have no chakra left. Sarutobi's chakra reserves supposedly being low because he had aged. Etc.