Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Transient Guest]

Arp is really annoying to try and debate against.

He says NARUTO IS A LOSER BECAUSE HE HAD NO JUTSU.

He had no jutsu because no one taught him because he was hated.

Why he wants to say NARUTO IS USELESS BUT ROCK LESS IS AWESOME is ignorant because they are mirrors of each other. No one gave Rock credit because he had no jutsu but he trained his body ( with help from Gai ) to be a good ninja. No one gave Naruto credit because of his history but he too was able to overcome chakra issues ( kurama interfering ), being a social pariah ( kurama interfering ), having no parents to try and help him with their legacy techniques ( kurama interfering ) to be a good ninja.

See all the (kurama interfering) things I put there? That means that all the times you say "he's only a good ninja because of the fox" I can counter with an entire lifetime of him BEING FUCKED OVER BECAUSE OF THE TAILS.

But that doesn't matter because the fox is stupid and weak. As is Naruto.

As is everyone in the manga that has any sort of genetic ability because the only people that deserve any credit are Gai, maybe Ei, and Lee.

If anyone else in the entire manga of Naruto gets a compliment it's wasted because that person is wholly and intrinsically dependent upon those in-built abilities and not on their own skill.
Sasuke? Eyes.
Kakashi? Eyes.
Gaara? Beasts and his mother.
Mei? Hot and uses bloodline jutsu. Maybe her hotness is a bloodline jutsu as well and I shouldn't give her any credit because it's not really HER being hot.

[Kamina]

Maybe someone should write a fanfic about Naruto growing up without being a Jinchuriki, you know, Team 8-style?

You all agree that Naruto is not useless, and that he has potential. Can you also agree that without Kurama, Naruto would not have made it as far as he did, assuming the storyline followed the same route as it did in canon. Next, add in the variables - Naruto won't be abused as a Jinchuriki, he'll have better opportunities to learn, and he might even be less hard-headed due to a lack of abuse in his childhood. All those things can substantially improve Naruto's chances as a ninja. He will be dead around the time of Pain's Invasion.

Good? Good. Game, set, match.

[Hazard]

Maybe someone should write a fanfic about Naruto growing up without being a Jinchuriki, you know, Team 8-style?

You all agree that Naruto is not useless, and that he has potential. Can you also agree that without Kurama, Naruto would not have made it as far as he did, assuming the storyline followed the same route as it did in canon. Next, add in the variables - Naruto won't be abused as a Jinchuriki, he'll have better opportunities to learn, and he might even be less hard-headed due to a lack of abuse in his childhood. All those things can substantially improve Naruto's chances as a ninja. He will be dead around the time of Pain's Invasion.

Good? Good. Game, set, match.

You are making the same assumption most AU fanfic writers do.

That just because you make one small change it will all happen the same as before with the exception of that one small change.

Butterfly effect is a thing, you know?

Say, Naruto is not a host. Is Kushina still a host? Does this mean Naruto still has parents? If not, then does not being a host means the village is aware of just who he is this time around due to his birth not having the same complication? Is he even raised in Konoha or does Jiraya take him with him now that he isn't a host and all? How early does he learn Sage Mode? No Kyuubi means eternal sage mode via ma and pa Toad. Does Jiraya even teach him here? Does Kakashi? How does his relationship with Sasuke change as a result of his background changing? If Minato is still alive does the Uchiha massacre still happen? Does the Kyuubi attack that lays the groundwork for the massacre even happen here?

And so on and so on and so on.

Hell, I can probably even come up with a suitably plausible 'Naruto becomes godlike because he didn't have the Kyuubi' theory/fanfic.

Fear the Butterfly.

[Siriel]

And hell, where is the Kyuubi if he isn't sealed?

[The Transient Guest]

And hell, where is the Kyuubi if he isn't sealed?

In Sasuke.

And I'm loving the idea that with Minato, that with Kushina, that with a still Sarutobi to help out as well.........
NARUTO DIES AGAINST GAARA.

Because having slightly less chakra means that he's now useless. It doesn't mean that he learns how to use his own chakra instead of being forced to use the overwhelming beast in him.
I want to make sure everyone knows that it's concrete cannon that Naruto has 1 unit of personal chakra and the rest his tank is Kurama chakra. This in comparison to the 500 units of chakra the average person gets.
IOW:
Naruto + Kurama = 1,000,000 chakra power
Ramen guy = 500 chakra power
Naruto - Kurama = 1 chakra

[Hazard]

Ramen guy I knew you were badass.

[The Transient Guest]

Ramen Guy is actually a piece of Senju DNA that was splashed by Uzumaki genetic material after an Uchihua cried on it because an akimichi ate it and then via space time Jutsu it was removed from the akimichi's belly and transported via gekkai genkai into the ramen shop where it became sentient.

Which would make him awesome because he doesn't have a tailed beast in there but he does have that stupid bloodline DNA powerup that some people so hate and talk down about.

[Siriel]

Ramen guy is actually the one who kicked Kurama's ass and sealed him after Minato died.

Obito and Kurama found the whole thing so embarassing that they repressed the memory and replaced it with Minato and Kushina doing the sealing.

[remydat]

Maybe someone should write a fanfic about Naruto growing up without being a Jinchuriki, you know, Team 8-style?

You all agree that Naruto is not useless, and that he has potential. Can you also agree that without Kurama, Naruto would not have made it as far as he did, assuming the storyline followed the same route as it did in canon. Next, add in the variables - Naruto won't be abused as a Jinchuriki, he'll have better opportunities to learn, and he might even be less hard-headed due to a lack of abuse in his childhood. All those things can substantially improve Naruto's chances as a ninja. He will be dead around the time of Pain's Invasion.

Good? Good. Game, set, match.

Here is my fan fic, Naruto grows up without the 9 tails. His father the Hokage and his mother Kushina are around. He is the village darling because he is the son of the living 4th Hokage. That livng 4th Hokage teaches him the Flying Thunder God Technique that due to his genetics Naruto is well suited to learn and thus the legacy of the Yellow Flash ie the fastest ninja the ninja world has ever seen lives on. With that technique and the special kunai skills Minato teaches him, Naruto like his father is capable of decimating large groups of people like his dad to the point that enemies are told never engage him in battle directly.

Add to that, he learns all the awesome sealing techniques from Kushina which her family was renowned for as well as the chakra chains that were able to restrain the Kyuubi inside her as well as in the real world. With those sealing techniques and chakra chains, he is well suited for dealing with any large scale enemies.

So basically you have a ninja adept at fighting human enemies one on one. Groups of enemies using FTGT and talied beasts and other large enemies using sealing techniques and chakra chains. I am not exactly sure why you think that would not make him one of the most formiddable ninjas in the book.

[Kamina]

You are making the same assumption most AU fanfic writers do.

That just because you make one small change it will all happen the same as before with the exception of that one small change.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, because I'm not denying that circumstances could change the flow of events, but I also don't believe that should a certain flow of events occur would Naruto be able to defeat Pain without Kurama.

I should rephrase.

When I said "add in the variables" I was acknowledging the butterfly effect, but I should have separated it from the rest of that paragraph. Factor in the new educational opportunities, the lack of Kurama and thus the village not hating Naruto off the bat, and take him off Akatsuki's wanted list, and Naruto will probably improve twice as fast as his canon self. Like you said, we could have infinite scenarios here, some with Naruto's advantage, some without.

However, if I didn't add in the variables of Naruto's changed life - if I wrote the story and followed canon with Naruto taking the Chunin Exams, training with Jiraiya, learning Sage Mode - I don't believe he would survive against Pain without Kurama. I could set it up so that Kushina died as Kurama's host and took Kurama with her; Minato succumbed to his injuries, and the villagers believed what they wanted and still chose to demonize Naruto. And the significant change? Naruto didn't get Kurama, but his parents still died, and he still had a miserable childhood. Single point of departure.

[The Transient Guest]

However, if I didn't add in the variables of Naruto's changed life - if I wrote the story and followed canon with Naruto taking the Chunin Exams, training with Jiraiya, learning Sage Mode - I don't believe he would survive against Pain without Kurama. I could set it up so that Kushina died as Kurama's host and took Kurama with her; Minato succumbed to his injuries, and the villagers believed what they wanted and still chose to demonize Naruto. And the significant change? Naruto didn't get Kurama, but his parents still died, and he still had a miserable childhood. Single point of departure.

While I can get some of the points you're making this particular set up screams bias to me. So Naruto's life is going to be the exact same cept now he's lacking Kurama. He's gonna....wait, let me ask something before I pick apart this.
What feats do we consider wholly Naruto and what feats do we consider Kurama tainted? Was his learning of the shadow clone Kurama's fault? Was his ability to make so many clones Kurama's fault or was it purely his chakra?
Looking back at the first issue we see a flare of tailed chakra but it's quickly dissipated and not actually used for any jutsu. When Naruto uses his mass shadow clone jutsu his whisker's aren't flaring, he's not chakra covered, his eyes are normal, IE it's HIS chakra being used.

So before I pick apart the identical set up, exactly why do you think base Naruto isn't worth a shit? And why without Kurama there he would have the exact same chakra issues he normally does despite Kurama being the reason for those troubles?

What's up with that.

[Siriel]

Well, to be perfectly fair, it's true that Naruto without Kurama probably dies against Pain.

But that just puts Naruto in the same basket as everyone except...Madara and maybe Kabuto and Itachi.

That said, yes, Naruto not being Kurama's host should really change a hell of a lot of things.

[Len Ikari145]

While I can get some of the points you're making this particular set up screams bias to me. So Naruto's life is going to be the exact same cept now he's lacking Kurama. He's gonna....wait, let me ask something before I pick apart this.
What feats do we consider wholly Naruto and what feats do we consider Kurama tainted? Was his learning of the shadow clone Kurama's fault? Was his ability to make so many clones Kurama's fault or was it purely his chakra?
Looking back at the first issue we see a flare of tailed chakra but it's quickly dissipated and not actually used for any jutsu. When Naruto uses his mass shadow clone jutsu his whisker's aren't flaring, he's not chakra covered, his eyes are normal, IE it's HIS chakra being used.

So before I pick apart the identical set up, exactly why do you think base Naruto isn't worth a shit? And why without Kurama there he would have the exact same chakra issues he normally does despite Kurama being the reason for those troubles?

What's up with that.

Kakashi also flat-out stated way back during his exam with Team 7 that Naruto's natural chakra was on par with his own, so he's isn't lacking in reserves without Kurama.

[Hazard]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here, because I'm not denying that circumstances could change the flow of events, but I also don't believe that should a certain flow of events occur would Naruto be able to defeat Pain without Kurama.

I should rephrase.

When I said "add in the variables" I was acknowledging the butterfly effect, but I should have separated it from the rest of that paragraph. Factor in the new educational opportunities, the lack of Kurama and thus the village not hating Naruto off the bat, and take him off Akatsuki's wanted list, and Naruto will probably improve twice as fast as his canon self. Like you said, we could have infinite scenarios here, some with Naruto's advantage, some without.

However, if I didn't add in the variables of Naruto's changed life - if I wrote the story and followed canon with Naruto taking the Chunin Exams, training with Jiraiya, learning Sage Mode - I don't believe he would survive against Pain without Kurama. I could set it up so that Kushina died as Kurama's host and took Kurama with her; Minato succumbed to his injuries, and the villagers believed what they wanted and still chose to demonize Naruto. And the significant change? Naruto didn't get Kurama, but his parents still died, and he still had a miserable childhood. Single point of departure.

Not sure what you are getting at here. You're saying if you decide the flow of a story you could get the result you wanted?

Well, yes.

Just like I can make it so that Nagato, Yahiko and Konan become circus people.


On another topic, to those following the Respect Threat I'm making, the current status is:

Base Naruto (Post time skip): 90% done with a 5 percent margin of error or so.
Kyuubi Naruto is like 99% done.
Sage Naruto is 90% done period.
Toads, Full Kyuubi Mode and Gold Mode are all at 0 percent competition.

[Guy1]

or does Jiraya take him with him now that he isn't a host and all?

Assuming J-Man doesn't get hit with the PIS Induced laziness he had over the time skip, Naruto becomes an utter beast under his training. I mean, just look at he did for Konan and them with no real problem and given Naruto learned the Kage Bushin well before he even knew how to use the Kyuubi at all, Naruto becomes Super Naruto even without the Kyuubi.