Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[remydat]

So you're saying Obito, during the Kakashi Gaiden, didn't understand the concept of life and death, even though his closest friend on the teams father lost his life to suicide and that death changed his closet friend so deeply? Not to mention the fact that he was fighting in a war? He wasn't just on some low level mission as Naruto's fist was, he was in a situation where people were actively trying to kill him and he'd have to, and does, kill for his team and villages sake. He knew good and well what being a ninja was about at that age, especially considering the fact the he himself took the life of one of the ninja's who captured Rin.

No. Remember, he is well aware of how cruelly the White Fangs comrades and village as a whole maligned and disparaged him. He is not foreign to the idea that friends can turn one another.

Again, throughout the Kakashi Gaiden Obito is fighting in a war and not only sees the 4th kill an opposing ninja but kills someone himself to protect Rin. He's well aware of what he's doing as a ninja and what can come of it.

And what I find to be the most outrageous part of all this is that Obito didn't even seek out Kakashi to find out the reason! The fact that he doesn't care is just plot induced ignorance so we can have the story we have now! If your best friend killed someone you care deeply about you're either going to want to kill that friend or find out WHY before killing the friend! It's preposterous to think that Obito just doest care knowing full well the connection and promise made between Kakashi and himself when they last saw each other. It doesn't make any sense!

No you missed my point. I think he is aware that people who hate each other kill (ie enemies). That you might have to kill an enemy to protect the people you love is easy for a 12-15 year old brain to understand. To expect a 12-15 year old brain to understand slaughtering your best friend is necessary not only for a mission but in order for that Sharingan you have been wishing would awaken all these years to finally do so is where I can fully understand someone becoming disillusioned.

Finding out Kakashi's reasons doesn't change the fact Rin is dead at the hands of their best friend and doesn't change the fact that the laws/physics of this world rewarded Kakashi and Obito for that brutal sacrificial offering. His eye awakening was basically like the world celebrating Rin's death. The same with when Madara killed his brother for his MS to awaken. This world rewards the butchering of your loved ones.

I am sure Obito has convinced himself that nothing Kakashi says will change that although I suspect it may. Why because as I said, he is not a fully grown mature adult. You think it doesn't make sense because you are judging him as if he shares your perspective and as if he was a grown ass man when all this occurred. He is a dumb kid who was brutally awakened from the fantasy that being a ninja and hokage is so kewl.

Put in a real world context you are basically arguing that someone with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder should actually exhibit symptoms of said disorder like impaired judgment. Even worse, you are essentially saying that despite adults having problems dealing with PTSD, you expect a kid to be able to handle it and make completely rational decisions when their main source of comfort during the whole time is basically an old nutter who has basically had PTSD for the past few centuries, lol.

[The Transient Guest]

I heard a sound as if a thousand NaruHina shippers suddenly jizzed in their pants and the same time...

That.....how do you even recognize that sound?

......Ew

[remydat]

And what I find to be the most outrageous part of all this is that Obito didn't even seek out Kakashi to find out the reason! The fact that he doesn't care is just plot induced ignorance so we can have the story we have now! If your best friend killed someone you care deeply about you're either going to want to kill that friend or find out WHY before killing the friend! It's preposterous to think that Obito just doest care knowing full well the connection and promise made between Kakashi and himself when they last saw each other. It doesn't make any sense!

I forgot when Madara asks in chapter 606 if he showed Kakashi mercy because he was a former comrade, Obito responds, "No it was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world because he will exist in the world we create along with Rin." If he thought Kakashi did something out of malice or for improper reasons then he likely would not be so willing to include him in this new world he wants to create. It is likely he doesn't really blame Kakashi so much as he blames the world that made his killing Rin possible. So again, I don't think he thinks Kakashi's reasons matter. He just wants a world where all 3 of them can live together again.

[The Dog]

I heard a sound as if a thousand NaruHina shippers suddenly jizzed in their pants and the same time...

[arp2008]

No you missed my point. I think he is aware that people who hate each other kill (ie enemies). That you might have to kill an enemy to protect the people you love is easy for a 12-15 year old brain to understand. To expect a 12-15 year old brain to understand slaughtering your best friend is necessary not only for a mission but in order for that Sharingan you have been wishing would awaken all these years to finally do so is where I can fully understand someone becoming disillusioned.

Finding out Kakashi's reasons doesn't change the fact Rin is dead at the hands of their best friend and doesn't change the fact that the laws/physics of this world rewarded Kakashi and Obito for that brutal sacrificial offering. His eye awakening was basically like the world celebrating Rin's death. The same with when Madara killed his brother for his MS to awaken. This world rewards the butchering of your loved ones.

I am sure Obito has convinced himself that nothing Kakashi says will change that although I suspect it may. Why because as I said, he is not a fully grown mature adult. You think it doesn't make sense because you are judging him as if he shares your perspective and as if he was a grown ass man when all this occurred. He is a dumb kid who was brutally awakened from the fantasy that being a ninja and hokage is so kewl.

Put in a real world context you are basically arguing that someone with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder should actually exhibit symptoms of said disorder like impaired judgment. Even worse, you are essentially saying that despite adults having problems dealing with PTSD, you expect a kid to be able to handle it and make completely rational decisions when their main source of comfort during the whole time is basically an old nutter who has basically had PTSD for the past few centuries, lol.

What I took from you're post is essentially that Obito has done all the horrible things he's done because a girl he liked died. And he doesn't even know is icing on the plot induced absurdity, for an explanation would probably have him relies her death was either necessary or inevitable, markedly when you consider the person responsible. And if he want to see Rin again so badly, have Oro resurrect her with Edo Tensi. At the least, that would cost one life for the sacrificial ritual than the countless lives he's taken and heinous acts he's committed. Seriously, Obito motivation is very weak and makes little sense when taken into perspective the tragedies that have happened to some of our protagonists! Obito entire story just doesn't make sense.

And lets not forget how hypocritical he is. He wanted a world where, according you and others who have rebutted my posts, what happened to Rin won't happen at all. And yet, as I said in earlier posts, he's done the same to many others and over the span of years and years. Moreover, in his new world, how will he bring back those countless lives he killed? Does he know each and everyone of them intimately enough to recreate them to exact specifications in his new world? Will all those in his illusion forget the ones they lost?

Obito is actually ironic. In trying to achieve his goal, he's done to others the same that lead him on this path to begin with.

As an addendum, this may have said before, and likely was, but consider what happened to Sasuke when he was even younger than Obito and how he grew up with the resolve to protect those around him so what happened to his family wouldn't happen to anyone else, and then consider Obito who's crush died and his reaction. Take things into perspective, folks!

I forgot when Madara asks in chapter 606 if he showed Kakashi mercy because he was a former comrade, Obito responds, "No it was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world because he will exist in the world we create along with Rin." If he thought Kakashi did something out of malice or for improper reasons then he likely would not be so willing to include him in this new world he wants to create. It is likely he doesn't really blame Kakashi so much as he blames the world that made his killing Rin possible. So again, I don't think he thinks Kakashi's reasons matter. He just wants a world where all 3 of them can live together again.

Which is asinine, because had plot not interfered and he decided to find out what happened even if it be while beating Kakashi to death, none of what's happening would be happening.

[Iron_twister]

Nice moment, really made that declaration of love Hinata made many chapters ago not be a really awkward moment after the Pain arc.

Kind of sucks Neji is dead dead but we're really heading to the point that deaths for named characters is getting higher from the looks of things other than the mooks.

[glue]

I have a couple questions, if someone wouldn't mind answering them.

1. How do they handle the 85 episodes between those based on the first 27 volumes of the manga and Shippuden; do the manga and anime go in different directions, are they ignored or are they referenced in the manga at all?

2. Are the releases that look like this legit/worth the money? I don't care at all about any kind of extras.




Sorry if these questions have been answered, but I really didn't want to risk seeing spoilers by going back through all the posts.

edit: haha After posting this I read the post right before and got a big spoiler. Somebody save me from myself!

[remydat]

What I took from you're post is essentially that Obito has done all the horrible things he's done because a girl he liked died. And he doesn't even know is icing on the plot induced absurdity, for an explanation would probably have him relies her death was either necessary or inevitable, markedly when you consider the person responsible. And if he want to see Rin again so badly, have Oro resurrect her with Edo Tensi. At the least, that would cost one life for the sacrificial ritual than the countless lives he's taken and heinous acts he's committed. Seriously, Obito motivation is very weak and makes little sense when taken into perspective the tragedies that have happened to some of our protagonists! Obito entire story just doesn't make sense.

And lets not forget how hypocritical he is. He wanted a world where, according you and others who have rebutted my posts, what happened to Rin won't happen at all. And yet, as I said in earlier posts, he's done the same to many others and over the span of years and years. Moreover, in his new world, how will he bring back those countless lives he killed? Does he know each and everyone of them intimately enough to recreate them to exact specifications in his new world? Will all those in his illusion forget the ones they lost?

Obito is actually ironic. In trying to achieve his goal, he's done to others the same that lead him on this path to begin with.

As an addendum, this may have said before, and likely was, but consider what happened to Sasuke when he was even younger than Obito and how he grew up with the resolve to protect those around him so what happened to his family wouldn't happen to anyone else, and then consider Obito who's crush died and his reaction. Take things into perspective, folks!

Which is asinine, because had plot not interfered and he decided to find out what happened even if it be while beating Kakashi to death, none of what's happening would be happening.

You are still missing the point. You assume he made this decision because he thinks Kakashi did not have a good reason to kill her. I am telling you the fact he still wants Kakashi in his new world means he likely has already considered that possibilty. If not he would not be so willing to have Kakashi in his new world.

And anyone who has decided to go to war has resolved themselves to the fact they will inflict pain and suffering on others so Obito is no more a hypocrite that anyone else. And everyone gets their wishes fulfilled in this dream world so from his perspective anyone that had died will exist in the new world so long as someone remembers them.

And once again you are assuming that someone with PTSD thinks rationally. A kid no less.

[Hazard]

1. How do they handle the 85 episodes between those based on the first 27 volumes of the manga and Shippuden; do the manga and anime go in different directions, are they ignored or are they referenced in the manga at all?

You mean the filler hell? Nope. Never spoken of in the manga at all. The manga is the source material after all. The anime does stuff like that to let the manga chapters build up and then adapt them.

2. Are the releases that look like this legit/worth the money? I don't care at all about any kind of extras.

No clue.

Sorry if these questions have been answered, but I really didn't want to risk seeing spoilers by going back through all the posts.

edit: haha After posting this I read the post right before and got a big spoiler. Somebody save me from myself!

It is a rather spoiler-y time to come into the thread.

[arp2008]

You are still missing the point. You assume he made this decision because he thinks Kakashi did not have a good reason to kill her. I am telling you the fact he still wants Kakashi in his new world means he likely has already considered that possibilty. If not he would not be so willing to have Kakashi in his new world.

No. That isn't my assumption at all. What I'm saying, and have been saying for the longest while, is that everything Obito has done since Rins death, regardless of how it occurs, does not justify hi sudden turn to utter, unmitigated evil and the path of carnage he's wrought since. What's more is that it is all quite asinine when he could have just used edo tensei to resurrect her if wanted to see her badly enough to start a world war.

Speaking of assumptions, you're assuming he has PTSD and using that as an excuse when there has been no indication of this at all. If anything should have caused him PTSD its getting half his body crushed, passing out, and waking up in the condition he did with half his body gone. When he decided to go back to Madara and become a villain he was very lucid.

You know, it's almost as if this a prosecution, Obito is on trial, I'm the prosecutor, and you're his defense lawyer now relegating to the mental illness or defect defense to explain his very cotrived and plot induced villainy.

And anyone who has decided to go to war has resolved themselves to the fact they will inflict pain and suffering on others so Obito is no more a hypocrite that anyone else. And everyone gets their wishes fulfilled in this dream world so from his perspective anyone that had died will exist in the new world so long as someone remembers them.

Even the one's he's murdered directly and indirectly? I addressed this in my previous post, actually. Love some elucidation on it.

And once again you are assuming that someone with PTSD thinks rationally.

You're assuming he has PTSD at all.

[glue]

Thanks of the answers, Hazard. The DVDs don't really matter if the manga ignores those 85. I just didn't want to get to volume 28 and then start seeing references to stuff I'd missed.

[remydat]

No. That isn't my assumption at all. What I'm saying, and have been saying for the longest while, is that everything Obito has done since Rins death, regardless of how it occurs, does not justify hi sudden turn to utter, unmitigated evil and the path of carnage he's wrought since. What's more is that it is all quite asinine when he could have just used edo tensei to resurrect her if wanted to see her badly enough to start a world war.

Speaking of assumptions, you're assuming he has PTSD and using that as an excuse when there has been no indication of this at all. If anything should have caused him PTSD its getting half his body crushed, passing out, and waking up in the condition he did with half his body gone. When he decided to go back to Madara and become a villain he was very lucid.

You know, it's almost as if this a prosecution, Obito is on trial, I'm the prosecutor, and you're his defense lawyer now relegating to the mental illness or defect defense to explain his very cotrived and plot induced villainy.

Even the one's he's murdered directly and indirectly? I addressed this in my previous post, actually. Love some elucidation on it.

You're assuming he has PTSD at all.

There is a difference between understanding why someone makes a decison and justifying a decision. You said Obito's actions didn't make any sense. People responded why his actions make sense given his situation. I didn't want this to turn into a long discussion on what trauma does to a kid but oh well.

1. People are more likely to be traumatized by a stressful experience if they’re already under a heavy stress load or have recently suffered a series of losses. People are also more likely to be traumatized by a new situation if they’ve been traumatized before – especially if the earlier trauma occurred in childhood -

2. Experiencing trauma in childhood can have a severe and long-lasting effect. Children who have been traumatized see the world as a frightening and dangerous place. When childhood trauma is not resolved, this fundamental sense of fear and helplessness carries over into adulthood, setting the stage for further trauma -

3. Childhood trauma darkens the child’s vision of the future as well as her attitudes about people. Young people who have been traumatized will voice cautious, one-day-at-a-time attitudes. They may say that you can’t count on anyone. -

4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emot...cal_trauma.htm

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/publica...nd_its_effects

I don't see what doesn't make sense. Obito suffered physical trauma which made him more susceptible to emotional trauma. It caused him to arrive at the conclusion that a lot of traumatised kids arrived at that the world sucks. Further, he had Madara whisper that very fact in his ear the whole time and saying he had a way to fix it. What don't you understand?

And Obito is not engaging in unmitigated evil from his perspective because the precise reason why he said he did not kill Kakashi when Madara asked him was because his death in this world does not matter since he will be alive in the next. He also confirmed to Naruto that Naruto ie someone other than himself can have their dreams fulfilled as well so Naruto and everyone else can have whatever loved ones that have died alive in the new reality. So that little kid brain of his thinks that there is no harm and no foul in killing people who will simply be ressurected in the new reality.

[arp2008]

The short and sweet of it is other people have suffered worse if not just as traumatic events and turned out to be some of our main protagonists. When taken into perspective, Obito's turn to evil just doesn't hold up.

[remydat]

The short and sweet of it is other people have suffered worse if not just as traumatic events and turned out to be some of our main protagonists. When taken into perspective, Obito's turn to evil just doesn't hold up.

The short and sweet of it is you need to refer to number 4 which expressly states

4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

So sorry when taken in perspective your statement that it does not hold up is simply your opinion based on an erroneous assumption that humans are robots and thus respond to trauma in the exact same way. By this rational no person would every suffer from PTSD since there is always someone who had it worse but actually didn't develop PTSD. Of course in reality we know that is not true because some people handle trauma better than others. If you disagree then take it up with the experts in the field and the research that proves your statement to be categorically false.

[arp2008]

There is a difference between understanding why someone makes a decison and justifying a decision. You said Obito's actions didn't make any sense. People responded why his actions make sense given his situation. I didn't want this to turn into a long discussion on what trauma does to a kid but oh well.

Why he'd doing what he's is clear. The reason? To me? Nonsensical.

1. People are more likely to be traumatized by a stressful experience if they’re already under a heavy stress load or have recently suffered a series of losses. People are also more likely to be traumatized by a new situation if they’ve been traumatized before – especially if the earlier trauma occurred in childhood -

Obito loss no one recently and seemed quite relieved, not stressed, that he wasn't dead when he woke up. And not only was his mind not on just how injured he was, it was focused on nothing more than reuniting with Kakashi and Rin. He didn't seem stressed. He seemed hopeful and optimistic.

2. Experiencing trauma in childhood can have a severe and long-lasting effect. Children who have been traumatized see the world as a frightening and dangerous place. When childhood trauma is not resolved, this fundamental sense of fear and helplessness carries over into adulthood, setting the stage for further trauma -

And this could have been resolved if simply confronted Kakashi. Yes, I know he doesn't care about Kakashi and that he doesn't want to live in a world where such things happen, but all that is plot-no-jutsu so we can have the story we have now. And that is my problem with Obito.

3. Childhood trauma darkens the child’s vision of the future as well as her attitudes about people. Young people who have been traumatized will voice cautious, one-day-at-a-time attitudes. They may say that you can’t count on anyone. -

If Obito can take a life at that age, witnessing a life being taken, regardless of who is involved, should have shook him the way you think it did.

4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emot...cal_trauma.htm

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/publica...nd_its_effects

If Obito was traumatized, he shouldn't have been. He should have been angry as hell as we saw and devastated which he was, but traumatized is taking it too far. Death is nothing new to him given what he does for a living and did himself already.

I don't see what doesn't make sense. Obito suffered physical trauma which made him more susceptible to emotional trauma. It caused him to arrive at the conclusion that a lot of traumatised kids arrived at that the world sucks. Further, he had Madara whisper that very fact in his ear the whole time and saying he had a way to fix it. What don't you understand?

What I don't understand is the sheer lengths Obito is going to achieve his goal and the act of utter villainy he's perpetrated just because a girl he liked died. As I already said, if he wants to see Rin again so badly he should have done eco tensei. And for someone who doesn't care about the world anymore, he's going through some pretty damn extraordinary lengths to change it and killing a hell of a lot of people who won't exist his illusion to do so.

And Obito is not engaging in unmitigated evil from his perspective because the precise reason why he said he did not kill Kakashi when Madara asked him was because his death in this world does not matter since he will be alive in the next. He also confirmed to Naruto that Naruto ie someone other than himself can have their dreams fulfilled as well so Naruto and everyone else can have whatever loved ones that have died alive in the new reality. So that little kid brain of his thinks that there is no harm and no foul in killing people who will simply be ressurected in the new reality.

The problem I have is that when you take a look at who Obito was before, even after whitnessing Rin's death, I can't accept that he change so completely and devolve into someone wo apathetic he wouldn't care to at least - at least - find out why his best friend would kill the women he swore him to protect.