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  1. #3151
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arp2008 View Post
    So you're saying Obito, during the Kakashi Gaiden, didn't understand the concept of life and death, even though his closest friend on the teams father lost his life to suicide and that death changed his closet friend so deeply? Not to mention the fact that he was fighting in a war? He wasn't just on some low level mission as Naruto's fist was, he was in a situation where people were actively trying to kill him and he'd have to, and does, kill for his team and villages sake. He knew good and well what being a ninja was about at that age, especially considering the fact the he himself took the life of one of the ninja's who captured Rin.

    No. Remember, he is well aware of how cruelly the White Fangs comrades and village as a whole maligned and disparaged him. He is not foreign to the idea that friends can turn one another.

    Again, throughout the Kakashi Gaiden Obito is fighting in a war and not only sees the 4th kill an opposing ninja but kills someone himself to protect Rin. He's well aware of what he's doing as a ninja and what can come of it.

    And what I find to be the most outrageous part of all this is that Obito didn't even seek out Kakashi to find out the reason! The fact that he doesn't care is just plot induced ignorance so we can have the story we have now! If your best friend killed someone you care deeply about you're either going to want to kill that friend or find out WHY before killing the friend! It's preposterous to think that Obito just doest care knowing full well the connection and promise made between Kakashi and himself when they last saw each other. It doesn't make any sense!
    No you missed my point. I think he is aware that people who hate each other kill (ie enemies). That you might have to kill an enemy to protect the people you love is easy for a 12-15 year old brain to understand. To expect a 12-15 year old brain to understand slaughtering your best friend is necessary not only for a mission but in order for that Sharingan you have been wishing would awaken all these years to finally do so is where I can fully understand someone becoming disillusioned.

    Finding out Kakashi's reasons doesn't change the fact Rin is dead at the hands of their best friend and doesn't change the fact that the laws/physics of this world rewarded Kakashi and Obito for that brutal sacrificial offering. His eye awakening was basically like the world celebrating Rin's death. The same with when Madara killed his brother for his MS to awaken. This world rewards the butchering of your loved ones.

    I am sure Obito has convinced himself that nothing Kakashi says will change that although I suspect it may. Why because as I said, he is not a fully grown mature adult. You think it doesn't make sense because you are judging him as if he shares your perspective and as if he was a grown ass man when all this occurred. He is a dumb kid who was brutally awakened from the fantasy that being a ninja and hokage is so kewl.

    Put in a real world context you are basically arguing that someone with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder should actually exhibit symptoms of said disorder like impaired judgment. Even worse, you are essentially saying that despite adults having problems dealing with PTSD, you expect a kid to be able to handle it and make completely rational decisions when their main source of comfort during the whole time is basically an old nutter who has basically had PTSD for the past few centuries, lol.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-27-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  2. #3152
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I heard a sound as if a thousand NaruHina shippers suddenly jizzed in their pants and the same time...
    That.....how do you even recognize that sound?

    ......Ew
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  3. #3153
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arp2008 View Post
    And what I find to be the most outrageous part of all this is that Obito didn't even seek out Kakashi to find out the reason! The fact that he doesn't care is just plot induced ignorance so we can have the story we have now! If your best friend killed someone you care deeply about you're either going to want to kill that friend or find out WHY before killing the friend! It's preposterous to think that Obito just doest care knowing full well the connection and promise made between Kakashi and himself when they last saw each other. It doesn't make any sense!
    I forgot when Madara asks in chapter 606 if he showed Kakashi mercy because he was a former comrade, Obito responds, "No it was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world because he will exist in the world we create along with Rin." If he thought Kakashi did something out of malice or for improper reasons then he likely would not be so willing to include him in this new world he wants to create. It is likely he doesn't really blame Kakashi so much as he blames the world that made his killing Rin possible. So again, I don't think he thinks Kakashi's reasons matter. He just wants a world where all 3 of them can live together again.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  4. #3154
    Lest We Forget The Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I heard a sound as if a thousand NaruHina shippers suddenly jizzed in their pants and the same time...
    "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

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  5. #3155
    Veteran Member arp2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No you missed my point. I think he is aware that people who hate each other kill (ie enemies). That you might have to kill an enemy to protect the people you love is easy for a 12-15 year old brain to understand. To expect a 12-15 year old brain to understand slaughtering your best friend is necessary not only for a mission but in order for that Sharingan you have been wishing would awaken all these years to finally do so is where I can fully understand someone becoming disillusioned.

    Finding out Kakashi's reasons doesn't change the fact Rin is dead at the hands of their best friend and doesn't change the fact that the laws/physics of this world rewarded Kakashi and Obito for that brutal sacrificial offering. His eye awakening was basically like the world celebrating Rin's death. The same with when Madara killed his brother for his MS to awaken. This world rewards the butchering of your loved ones.

    I am sure Obito has convinced himself that nothing Kakashi says will change that although I suspect it may. Why because as I said, he is not a fully grown mature adult. You think it doesn't make sense because you are judging him as if he shares your perspective and as if he was a grown ass man when all this occurred. He is a dumb kid who was brutally awakened from the fantasy that being a ninja and hokage is so kewl.

    Put in a real world context you are basically arguing that someone with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder should actually exhibit symptoms of said disorder like impaired judgment. Even worse, you are essentially saying that despite adults having problems dealing with PTSD, you expect a kid to be able to handle it and make completely rational decisions when their main source of comfort during the whole time is basically an old nutter who has basically had PTSD for the past few centuries, lol.
    What I took from you're post is essentially that Obito has done all the horrible things he's done because a girl he liked died. And he doesn't even know is icing on the plot induced absurdity, for an explanation would probably have him relies her death was either necessary or inevitable, markedly when you consider the person responsible. And if he want to see Rin again so badly, have Oro resurrect her with Edo Tensi. At the least, that would cost one life for the sacrificial ritual than the countless lives he's taken and heinous acts he's committed. Seriously, Obito motivation is very weak and makes little sense when taken into perspective the tragedies that have happened to some of our protagonists! Obito entire story just doesn't make sense.

    And lets not forget how hypocritical he is. He wanted a world where, according you and others who have rebutted my posts, what happened to Rin won't happen at all. And yet, as I said in earlier posts, he's done the same to many others and over the span of years and years. Moreover, in his new world, how will he bring back those countless lives he killed? Does he know each and everyone of them intimately enough to recreate them to exact specifications in his new world? Will all those in his illusion forget the ones they lost?

    Obito is actually ironic. In trying to achieve his goal, he's done to others the same that lead him on this path to begin with.

    As an addendum, this may have said before, and likely was, but consider what happened to Sasuke when he was even younger than Obito and how he grew up with the resolve to protect those around him so what happened to his family wouldn't happen to anyone else, and then consider Obito who's crush died and his reaction. Take things into perspective, folks!

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I forgot when Madara asks in chapter 606 if he showed Kakashi mercy because he was a former comrade, Obito responds, "No it was fine either way. Whether he lives or dies in this world because he will exist in the world we create along with Rin." If he thought Kakashi did something out of malice or for improper reasons then he likely would not be so willing to include him in this new world he wants to create. It is likely he doesn't really blame Kakashi so much as he blames the world that made his killing Rin possible. So again, I don't think he thinks Kakashi's reasons matter. He just wants a world where all 3 of them can live together again.
    Which is asinine, because had plot not interfered and he decided to find out what happened even if it be while beating Kakashi to death, none of what's happening would be happening.
    Last edited by arp2008; 12-27-2012 at 05:56 PM.

  6. #3156
    Have Robot, Will Smash Iron_twister's Avatar
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    Nice moment, really made that declaration of love Hinata made many chapters ago not be a really awkward moment after the Pain arc.

    Kind of sucks Neji is dead dead but we're really heading to the point that deaths for named characters is getting higher from the looks of things other than the mooks.
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  7. #3157
    Senior Member glue's Avatar
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    I have a couple questions, if someone wouldn't mind answering them.

    1. How do they handle the 85 episodes between those based on the first 27 volumes of the manga and Shippuden; do the manga and anime go in different directions, are they ignored or are they referenced in the manga at all?

    2. Are the releases that look like this legit/worth the money? I don't care at all about any kind of extras.




    Sorry if these questions have been answered, but I really didn't want to risk seeing spoilers by going back through all the posts.

    edit: haha After posting this I read the post right before and got a big spoiler. Somebody save me from myself!

  8. #3158
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arp2008 View Post
    What I took from you're post is essentially that Obito has done all the horrible things he's done because a girl he liked died. And he doesn't even know is icing on the plot induced absurdity, for an explanation would probably have him relies her death was either necessary or inevitable, markedly when you consider the person responsible. And if he want to see Rin again so badly, have Oro resurrect her with Edo Tensi. At the least, that would cost one life for the sacrificial ritual than the countless lives he's taken and heinous acts he's committed. Seriously, Obito motivation is very weak and makes little sense when taken into perspective the tragedies that have happened to some of our protagonists! Obito entire story just doesn't make sense.

    And lets not forget how hypocritical he is. He wanted a world where, according you and others who have rebutted my posts, what happened to Rin won't happen at all. And yet, as I said in earlier posts, he's done the same to many others and over the span of years and years. Moreover, in his new world, how will he bring back those countless lives he killed? Does he know each and everyone of them intimately enough to recreate them to exact specifications in his new world? Will all those in his illusion forget the ones they lost?

    Obito is actually ironic. In trying to achieve his goal, he's done to others the same that lead him on this path to begin with.

    As an addendum, this may have said before, and likely was, but consider what happened to Sasuke when he was even younger than Obito and how he grew up with the resolve to protect those around him so what happened to his family wouldn't happen to anyone else, and then consider Obito who's crush died and his reaction. Take things into perspective, folks!

    Which is asinine, because had plot not interfered and he decided to find out what happened even if it be while beating Kakashi to death, none of what's happening would be happening.
    You are still missing the point. You assume he made this decision because he thinks Kakashi did not have a good reason to kill her. I am telling you the fact he still wants Kakashi in his new world means he likely has already considered that possibilty. If not he would not be so willing to have Kakashi in his new world.

    And anyone who has decided to go to war has resolved themselves to the fact they will inflict pain and suffering on others so Obito is no more a hypocrite that anyone else. And everyone gets their wishes fulfilled in this dream world so from his perspective anyone that had died will exist in the new world so long as someone remembers them.

    And once again you are assuming that someone with PTSD thinks rationally. A kid no less.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-27-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  9. #3159
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glue View Post
    1. How do they handle the 85 episodes between those based on the first 27 volumes of the manga and Shippuden; do the manga and anime go in different directions, are they ignored or are they referenced in the manga at all?
    You mean the filler hell? Nope. Never spoken of in the manga at all. The manga is the source material after all. The anime does stuff like that to let the manga chapters build up and then adapt them.

    2. Are the releases that look like this legit/worth the money? I don't care at all about any kind of extras.
    No clue.

    Sorry if these questions have been answered, but I really didn't want to risk seeing spoilers by going back through all the posts.

    edit: haha After posting this I read the post right before and got a big spoiler. Somebody save me from myself!
    It is a rather spoiler-y time to come into the thread.

  10. #3160
    Veteran Member arp2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    You are still missing the point. You assume he made this decision because he thinks Kakashi did not have a good reason to kill her. I am telling you the fact he still wants Kakashi in his new world means he likely has already considered that possibilty. If not he would not be so willing to have Kakashi in his new world.
    No. That isn't my assumption at all. What I'm saying, and have been saying for the longest while, is that everything Obito has done since Rins death, regardless of how it occurs, does not justify hi sudden turn to utter, unmitigated evil and the path of carnage he's wrought since. What's more is that it is all quite asinine when he could have just used edo tensei to resurrect her if wanted to see her badly enough to start a world war.

    Speaking of assumptions, you're assuming he has PTSD and using that as an excuse when there has been no indication of this at all. If anything should have caused him PTSD its getting half his body crushed, passing out, and waking up in the condition he did with half his body gone. When he decided to go back to Madara and become a villain he was very lucid.

    You know, it's almost as if this a prosecution, Obito is on trial, I'm the prosecutor, and you're his defense lawyer now relegating to the mental illness or defect defense to explain his very cotrived and plot induced villainy.

    And anyone who has decided to go to war has resolved themselves to the fact they will inflict pain and suffering on others so Obito is no more a hypocrite that anyone else. And everyone gets their wishes fulfilled in this dream world so from his perspective anyone that had died will exist in the new world so long as someone remembers them.
    Even the one's he's murdered directly and indirectly? I addressed this in my previous post, actually. Love some elucidation on it.

    And once again you are assuming that someone with PTSD thinks rationally.
    You're assuming he has PTSD at all.
    Last edited by arp2008; 12-27-2012 at 08:36 PM.

  11. #3161
    Senior Member glue's Avatar
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    Thanks of the answers, Hazard. The DVDs don't really matter if the manga ignores those 85. I just didn't want to get to volume 28 and then start seeing references to stuff I'd missed.

  12. #3162
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arp2008 View Post
    No. That isn't my assumption at all. What I'm saying, and have been saying for the longest while, is that everything Obito has done since Rins death, regardless of how it occurs, does not justify hi sudden turn to utter, unmitigated evil and the path of carnage he's wrought since. What's more is that it is all quite asinine when he could have just used edo tensei to resurrect her if wanted to see her badly enough to start a world war.

    Speaking of assumptions, you're assuming he has PTSD and using that as an excuse when there has been no indication of this at all. If anything should have caused him PTSD its getting half his body crushed, passing out, and waking up in the condition he did with half his body gone. When he decided to go back to Madara and become a villain he was very lucid.

    You know, it's almost as if this a prosecution, Obito is on trial, I'm the prosecutor, and you're his defense lawyer now relegating to the mental illness or defect defense to explain his very cotrived and plot induced villainy.

    Even the one's he's murdered directly and indirectly? I addressed this in my previous post, actually. Love some elucidation on it.

    You're assuming he has PTSD at all.
    There is a difference between understanding why someone makes a decison and justifying a decision. You said Obito's actions didn't make any sense. People responded why his actions make sense given his situation. I didn't want this to turn into a long discussion on what trauma does to a kid but oh well.

    1. People are more likely to be traumatized by a stressful experience if they’re already under a heavy stress load or have recently suffered a series of losses. People are also more likely to be traumatized by a new situation if they’ve been traumatized before – especially if the earlier trauma occurred in childhood -

    2. Experiencing trauma in childhood can have a severe and long-lasting effect. Children who have been traumatized see the world as a frightening and dangerous place. When childhood trauma is not resolved, this fundamental sense of fear and helplessness carries over into adulthood, setting the stage for further trauma -

    3. Childhood trauma darkens the child’s vision of the future as well as her attitudes about people. Young people who have been traumatized will voice cautious, one-day-at-a-time attitudes. They may say that you can’t count on anyone. -

    4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

    http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emot...cal_trauma.htm

    http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/publica...nd_its_effects

    I don't see what doesn't make sense. Obito suffered physical trauma which made him more susceptible to emotional trauma. It caused him to arrive at the conclusion that a lot of traumatised kids arrived at that the world sucks. Further, he had Madara whisper that very fact in his ear the whole time and saying he had a way to fix it. What don't you understand?

    And Obito is not engaging in unmitigated evil from his perspective because the precise reason why he said he did not kill Kakashi when Madara asked him was because his death in this world does not matter since he will be alive in the next. He also confirmed to Naruto that Naruto ie someone other than himself can have their dreams fulfilled as well so Naruto and everyone else can have whatever loved ones that have died alive in the new reality. So that little kid brain of his thinks that there is no harm and no foul in killing people who will simply be ressurected in the new reality.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-27-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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    Veteran Member arp2008's Avatar
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    The short and sweet of it is other people have suffered worse if not just as traumatic events and turned out to be some of our main protagonists. When taken into perspective, Obito's turn to evil just doesn't hold up.
    Last edited by arp2008; 12-27-2012 at 10:02 PM.

  14. #3164
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arp2008 View Post
    The short and sweet of it is other people have suffered worse if not just as traumatic events and turned out to be some of our main protagonists. When taken into perspective, Obito's turn to evil just doesn't hold up.
    The short and sweet of it is you need to refer to number 4 which expressly states

    4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

    So sorry when taken in perspective your statement that it does not hold up is simply your opinion based on an erroneous assumption that humans are robots and thus respond to trauma in the exact same way. By this rational no person would every suffer from PTSD since there is always someone who had it worse but actually didn't develop PTSD. Of course in reality we know that is not true because some people handle trauma better than others. If you disagree then take it up with the experts in the field and the research that proves your statement to be categorically false.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

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    Veteran Member arp2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    There is a difference between understanding why someone makes a decison and justifying a decision. You said Obito's actions didn't make any sense. People responded why his actions make sense given his situation. I didn't want this to turn into a long discussion on what trauma does to a kid but oh well.
    Why he'd doing what he's is clear. The reason? To me? Nonsensical.

    1. People are more likely to be traumatized by a stressful experience if they’re already under a heavy stress load or have recently suffered a series of losses. People are also more likely to be traumatized by a new situation if they’ve been traumatized before – especially if the earlier trauma occurred in childhood -
    Obito loss no one recently and seemed quite relieved, not stressed, that he wasn't dead when he woke up. And not only was his mind not on just how injured he was, it was focused on nothing more than reuniting with Kakashi and Rin. He didn't seem stressed. He seemed hopeful and optimistic.

    2. Experiencing trauma in childhood can have a severe and long-lasting effect. Children who have been traumatized see the world as a frightening and dangerous place. When childhood trauma is not resolved, this fundamental sense of fear and helplessness carries over into adulthood, setting the stage for further trauma -
    And this could have been resolved if simply confronted Kakashi. Yes, I know he doesn't care about Kakashi and that he doesn't want to live in a world where such things happen, but all that is plot-no-jutsu so we can have the story we have now. And that is my problem with Obito.

    3. Childhood trauma darkens the child’s vision of the future as well as her attitudes about people. Young people who have been traumatized will voice cautious, one-day-at-a-time attitudes. They may say that you can’t count on anyone. -
    If Obito can take a life at that age, witnessing a life being taken, regardless of who is involved, should have shook him the way you think it did.

    4. Following a traumatic event, or repeated trauma, people react in different ways, experiencing a wide range of physical and emotional reactions. There is no “right” or “wrong” way to think, feel, or respond to trauma, so don’t judge your own reactions or those of other people. Your responses are NORMAL reactions to ABNORMAL events.

    http://www.helpguide.org/mental/emot...cal_trauma.htm

    http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/publica...nd_its_effects
    If Obito was traumatized, he shouldn't have been. He should have been angry as hell as we saw and devastated which he was, but traumatized is taking it too far. Death is nothing new to him given what he does for a living and did himself already.

    I don't see what doesn't make sense. Obito suffered physical trauma which made him more susceptible to emotional trauma. It caused him to arrive at the conclusion that a lot of traumatised kids arrived at that the world sucks. Further, he had Madara whisper that very fact in his ear the whole time and saying he had a way to fix it. What don't you understand?
    What I don't understand is the sheer lengths Obito is going to achieve his goal and the act of utter villainy he's perpetrated just because a girl he liked died. As I already said, if he wants to see Rin again so badly he should have done eco tensei. And for someone who doesn't care about the world anymore, he's going through some pretty damn extraordinary lengths to change it and killing a hell of a lot of people who won't exist his illusion to do so.

    And Obito is not engaging in unmitigated evil from his perspective because the precise reason why he said he did not kill Kakashi when Madara asked him was because his death in this world does not matter since he will be alive in the next. He also confirmed to Naruto that Naruto ie someone other than himself can have their dreams fulfilled as well so Naruto and everyone else can have whatever loved ones that have died alive in the new reality. So that little kid brain of his thinks that there is no harm and no foul in killing people who will simply be ressurected in the new reality.
    The problem I have is that when you take a look at who Obito was before, even after whitnessing Rin's death, I can't accept that he change so completely and devolve into someone wo apathetic he wouldn't care to at least - at least - find out why his best friend would kill the women he swore him to protect.
    Last edited by arp2008; 12-27-2012 at 10:30 PM.

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