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  1. #2911
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    How comfortable. Here is what would happen if I were to give you a scenario (like the ones I have already proposed). You would make up your own counter scenario and dismiss it. No ifs or buts there. You're so convinced in your view that you have turned Danzo from well-intentioned extremist to homicidal madman determined to kill all Uchiha, who is apparently the real power in Konoha.

    You seem to think there is a need for serious Danzo counter measure. I don't (hence why I don't really bother). Being in the open is the limit of his power. The manga went to great lengths to highlight this.
    This is a cop-out. You are basically accussing me of something that you are actually currently in the process of doing. I came up with a scenario and you are doggedly trying to poke holes in it which is fine. What I find hypocritical is you doing so but then refusing to subject yourself to the same scrutiny. And no I would not simply dismiss it. If I disagreed with it but thought it had some merit I would say so just like I did during our previous discussions when I acknowledged the validity your arguments against my opinion on Obito knowing about Edo Tensei. So there is documented evidence in this thread of me accepting the validity of someone's arguments even if I disagree with it. I haven't done so in this debate because you haven't given me anything to consider beyond saying that peace would have happened because a guy who butchered his family said maybe there was another way. I want an example of exactly what an agreement looks like because a negotiation typically involves both sides giving and taking. So what in your mind are the concessions that could be made to appease both sides? Again, perfectly fine if you don't want to but accussing me of something when there is evidence in our previous discussion that accussation is false and when you are engaged in the very thing you accuse me of is not debating in good faith.

    And Danzo is not a well-intentioned extremist. The manga made it pretty clear he resented Sarutobi for acting when he couldn't which resulted in Sarutobi become Hokage. Danzo's problem is he thinks that his own personal desire for power and his desire to protect Konoha are one in the same. Did you forge this well intentioned man murdered Kosuke to prevent Naruto returning during the Pain invasion and then had his Root goons stanby while Pain attacked because he wanted the murder and mayhem to result in people losing faith in Tsunade? Like I said, sure he wanted to protect Konoha but he was not well-intentioned because well-intentioned would mean putting Konoha above his own personal goals and he couldn't do that because he thought they were one in the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    And what gives Danzo the right to do that?

    Sarutobi is the Hokage, not him. Itachi is Sarutobi's subordinate not him.

    Also, you really think his Root goons are going to kill the Uchiha? Seriously?.
    For the record this is an example of where I find you are doing what you accuse me of because the logic here makes no sense. Danzo is one of the most senior advisers in Konoha along with the two old farts. To pretend it is impossible for him to request and be granted a meeting with Sarutobi is just silly. This would be like the head of the CIA calling up Obama and saying Mr. President I have a matter of national security to discuss urgently and then you asking me why would Obama meet with the head of the CIA? Um because a leader routinely meets with his key advisers. As for Itachi, it is Danzo who cultivated the relationship with Itachi and got him to spy on the Uchiha for Konoha. He is more a direct subordinate of Danzo than he is of Sarutobi. Furthermore, since he is the one supplying the information on the Uchiha if Danzo says he has a matter of national security to discuss involving the Uchiha, inviting the guy who is currently the main source of information on them makes perfect since. There is simply no logical reason to say Danzo cannot get a meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi. And read my posts again, I never said Root could kill Itachi. I said they would be present at the meeting or be seen by other people far away from the Uchiha to provide an ALIBI. When Obito murders the Uchiha, if Danzo is meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi and his Root goons conspicuously present, then there is no real way for the murders to be pinned on him or his goons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Why does Obito want the Uchiha dead? No, serious question. Did he want the Uchiha dead or did he want Itachi on his side?

    The guy is a nihilist at his core, so killing the Uchiha seems like something he just won't go out of his way to do.
    Obito wants to rewrite the world. A united Konoha with all the Uchiha makes it much more difficult. It's basic divided and conquer. Rather than face them all together, he helped Itachi eliminate a group of people that would make it more difficult for him to achieve his plan. In the absence of Itachi going along with the plan, it is still advisable for Obito to kill them to prevent a United Konoha posing more trouble in the future such as the Ninja Alliance in the last chapter including ALL OF THE UCHIHA. And no Obito does not want to kill Itachi. If he could get away with murdering the Uchiha without Itachi finding out then he would. Hence why he would use Danzo to keep Itachi occuppied. Clearly if Itachi sided with Konoha though then it is a problem for Obito because again he doesn't want to see Itachi a part of the Ninja Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    And there is the validity of your scenario.

    It didn't happen in the first time, when the deed was done by one of the best members of the clan with access to all its secrets and another ninja. But now the info source is gone. Conditions are radically difference and killing the Uchiha, equates to killing the best ninja clan in all Konoha.

    Kid screaming. Fireballs. Security. Konoha Anbu. All are equally likely now..
    What secrets do you think Obito is not aware of when he has access to the knowledge of Madara? We don't know how the massacre went down. You are assuming that Obito had to exert himself to the fullest when it is far more likely he let Itachi do most of the work because well Itachi was there and Obito likes to play things close to the vest. Given what I have seen of him in his recent fights and given without Itachi, I am pretty sure he could manipulate some of the members of Akatsuki to help, I see no reason to assume a kid screams.

    Having said that, I acknowledge it is a possibility (notice how I don't totally shoot it down as impossible) but simply think it is unlikely given Obito's power levels. I mean hell what is preventing him from using the Zetsu to help him do the deed as I am pretty sure they were around then? Look, you don't have to agree but to try and pretend like it is impossible for one of the best ninja's in the ninja world with access to all of Madara's knowlege and Akatsuki to boot to murder the Uchiha quietly is just you being stubborn when we know Itachi and Obito did it and there is no indication in the story that Obito had to exert himself tremendously to do so.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  2. #2912
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    How does not being able to stop something that happened behind ones back equal not being able to negotiate a peace treaty successfully? As far as I know Danzou didn't give the peace talks a chance to really happen, and neither did Itachi, because they feared for the village. So they jumped the gun and had Itachi, and Obito disguised as Madara, kill the clan. Would the peace talks have been effective? We will never know.

    As for Sarutobi not punishing Danzou. Shit happens. The problem was solved and Itachi took the patsy role. Sarutobi probably didn't like it all that much but that's the way stuff rolled. Can't make too much of a fuzz or attentions will start to go to the wrong places.
    Because Danzo and the two old farts showed that they don't care what Sarutobi thinks. They ultimately knew it was possible that Sarutobi would find out but they did it anyway. I see no evidence that Danzo can be reasoned with when his mind is made up. And there is not punishing someone and there is the dude that sanctioned genocide becoming Hokage. Again, it is easy to make the argument well shit happens because this is a fictional story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Then again, the entire thing hinged on Itachi agreeing to it, going at it with a bigger force would've brought on way too much attention and they wouldn't have a single sacrifical lamb to pin it all on. Considering what's been discussed before in regards to how Itachi is the perfect ninja under the flawed system of the traditional ninja world Danzou was probably pretty certaint that Itachi would follow orders like a good little soldier

    Again, the plan hinged on Itachi doing it all so that they could pin it on him. Going at it with a large assassination squad would probably have caused too much commotion and possibly even started the civil war and that would've all been on Danzou's head. He would've triggered the war, not the Uchiha clan. There were too much of a risk to got for it if Itachi said no.
    And like I said, Obito conveniently showed up to assist Itachi. Of course, we will never know because it did not happen but Hazard came on here screaming to me that there is absolutely no other way it could have happened except with Uchiha and I offered a way that should have been obvious (ie Obito). You are free to disagree with me on it but to pretend it is completely implausible that Obito would have wanted to the Uchiha dead to prevent a United Konoha/Uchiha alliance opposing him later just seems stubborn to me. And Danzo would not have to risk much, all he would need to do is simply ensure Sarutobi and Itachi were not near the village which is easily doable since as a Senior Adviser, he could simply request a private meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi to discuss the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    This all assume that Danzou would've attacked the clan and that the peace talks would fail. Neither of which is certain.

    And Itachi's plan was for Sasuke to NOT live a peaceful life in Konoha because that detracted from the hate he wanted Sasuke to build up. When Sasuke was starting to live a peaceful life with friends and the respect of his elders Itachi mind-raped him and called him a wimp for not having enough hate.

    For which part? The dealing with the Uchiha clan part or the how Itachi could've dealt with Sasuke part?
    Like I said we do not know for sure. Hazard said peace was likely, I said it wasn't. When challenged on it, I said based on my opinion of Danzo being a power hungry dick who thought that protecting Konoha meant him having as much power as possible that he would not simply accept peace with the Uchiha especially when I see no logical way to appease the Uchiha that does not involve them getting something out of it whether it be moving back to the village proper or getting more upward mobility e.g. a seat at Sarutobi's inner council. Given that, when Hazard challenged me to provide a scenario in which the Uchiha could be killed without Itachi, I did so. All I asked in return is for him to provide a scenario that explains how this peace would be achieved. He has refused. So forgive me if I feel I have done my part in explaining my position but the other side seems reluctant to explain how Sarutobi convinces the Uchiha to accept peace. I don't want vague statements of well Sarutobi could convince them. I gave Hazard a plan whether he liked it or not and would expect to be provided the same courtesy if the intent is a good faith debate.

    As for Itachi's plan for Sasuke. It was two-fold. He wanted Sasuke to live in peace in Konoha hence why he didn't run off with him and hence why he threatened Danzo and asked Sarutobi to look after him. At the same time, Itachi knew that Danzo doesn't relent. So he also needed to ensure Sasuke was capable of defending himself when Danzo finally decided to kill Sasuke once and for all which didn't Danzo assign Sai to Team Kakashi for that very reason? Look like I said, Itachi's plan sucked but the dude was dealing with Danzo, a guy Sarutobi showed no inclination of being able to keep in check. So again, I will ask simply, give me an alternative that has details of what Itachi should have done.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-04-2012 at 08:27 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  3. #2913
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Odd little question that just entered my head.

    Why did Obito try to reveal his face to Sasuke after the Itachi-fight? It wouldn't have done much of anything for him really since Sasuke probably wouldn't have trusted him mask or no mask (I doubt that Sasuke ever really trusted "Madara").

    Also, I wonder if an activated but unfocused byakugan is similar to Detective mode in Arkham Asylum/City.
    At this point Sasuke was the last Uchiha alive so I thought it was an attempt to gain his confidence by revealing he was also a Uchiha ie he had a Sharingan. A longshot of course but thinking you are the last of your people and then meeting another one of you people can certainly sway some people. I wouldn't be surprised as well if Obito suspected Itachi planted a trap for him and wanted to see what it was because well Obito and Madara are just that cool.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  4. #2914
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Odd little question that just entered my head.

    Why did Obito try to reveal his face to Sasuke after the Itachi-fight? It wouldn't have done much of anything for him really since Sasuke probably wouldn't have trusted him mask or no mask (I doubt that Sasuke ever really trusted "Madara").
    Trust building, probably. Not in the sense he would have recognized him or anything like that, but more 'look I am a masked guy but I am showing you my face'.

    Also, I wonder if an activated but unfocused byakugan is similar to Detective mode in Arkham Asylum/City.
    Probably. Actually, haven't we seen what it looks like in some chapters?

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    This is a cop-out. You are basically accussing me of something that you are actually currently in the process of doing. I came up with a scenario and you are doggedly trying to poke holes in it which is fine. What I find hypocritical is you doing so but then refusing to subject yourself to the same scrutiny. And no I would not simply dismiss it. If I disagreed with it but thought it had some merit I would say so just like I did during our previous discussions when I acknowledged the validity your arguments against my opinion on Obito knowing about Edo Tensei. So there is documented evidence in this thread of me accepting the validity of someone's arguments even if I disagree with it. I haven't done so in this debate because you haven't given me anything to consider beyond saying that peace would have happened because a guy who butchered his family said maybe there was another way. I want an example of exactly what an agreement looks like because a negotiation typically involves both sides giving and taking. So what in your mind are the concessions that could be made to appease both sides? Again, perfectly fine if you don't want to but accussing me of something when there is evidence in our previous discussion that accussation is false and when you are engaged in the very thing you accuse me of is not debating in good faith.
    Meh, I gave you a scenario. You seem to think super dupper Danzo countermeasures are needed, then even dragged Obito into it. I don't. Simple as.

    Also are you referring to the discussion where you kept repeating your view and said the despite being factually wrong you won't change it? That's your example for accepting valid arguments?

    Really from my view you're making an entirely too big deal out of this. "We aren't going to kill you all." "We might have jumped the gun with the coup." It's not that complicated.

    Also, you seem to think the people of Konoha were heavily prejudiced against Uchiha, when there is not a single hint of it in the interactions of the characters, in any flashback we have had.

    And Danzo is not a well-intentioned extremist. The manga made it pretty clear he resented Sarutobi for acting when he couldn't which resulted in Sarutobi become Hokage. Danzo's problem is he thinks that his own personal desire for power and his desire to protect Konoha are one in the same. Did you forge this well intentioned man murdered Kosuke to prevent Naruto returning during the Pain invasion and then had his Root goons stanby while Pain attacked because he wanted the murder and mayhem to result in people losing faith in Tsunade? Like I said, sure he wanted to protect Konoha but he was not well-intentioned because well-intentioned would mean putting Konoha above his own personal goals and he couldn't do that because he thought they were one in the same.
    Danzo is a well intentioned extremist. His relationship with Sarutobi doesn't in any way change this.

    Also, you are talking about the time when he tried to stop Naruto from showing up, therefore putting him out of Pain's reach and stopping his plan temporarily and where he would use the ensuing destruction to take over and stablish what he viewed as an actually effective ninja goverment?

    Totally not well-mentioned extremist there.

    For the record this is an example of where I find you are doing what you accuse me of because the logic here makes no sense. Danzo is one of the most senior advisers in Konoha along with the two old farts. To pretend it is impossible for him to request and be granted a meeting with Sarutobi is just silly. This would be like the head of the CIA calling up Obama and saying Mr. President I have a matter of national security to discuss urgently and then you asking me why would Obama meet with the head of the CIA? Um because a leader routinely meets with his key advisers. As for Itachi, it is Danzo who cultivated the relationship with Itachi and got him to spy on the Uchiha for Konoha. He is more a direct subordinate of Danzo than he is of Sarutobi. Furthermore, since he is the one supplying the information on the Uchiha if Danzo says he has a matter of national security to discuss involving the Uchiha, inviting the guy who is currently the main source of information on them makes perfect since. There is simply no logical reason to say Danzo cannot get a meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi. And read my posts again, I never said Root could kill Itachi. I said they would be present at the meeting or be seen by other people far away from the Uchiha to provide an ALIBI. When Obito murders the Uchiha, if Danzo is meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi and his Root goons conspicuously present, then there is no real way for the murders to be pinned on him or his goons.
    You example required Saru to go to him and for Itachi to be there as well. Not the other way around.

    Also, no. Itachi was spying for Konoha, but his meetings were with Saru and the rest of the advisers, not Danzo alone. Danzo merely was the one that got him to kill the clan. That's it.

    Also, seriously Alibi?:

    "Well someone killed the Uchiha clan. Who ever could it be?"

    "How stupid do you think I am?"

    Seriously, Danzo doesn't need to build an Alibi.

    Also, Danzo is not the only one with an army of ninja at his command. Just saying.

    Obito wants to rewrite the world. A united Konoha with all the Uchiha makes it much more difficult. It's basic divided and conquer. Rather than face them all together, he helped Itachi eliminate a group of people that would make it more difficult for him to achieve his plan. In the absence of Itachi going along with the plan, it is still advisable for Obito to kill them to prevent a United Konoha posing more trouble in the future such as the Ninja Alliance in the last chapter including ALL OF THE UCHIHA. And no Obito does not want to kill Itachi. If he could get away with murdering the Uchiha without Itachi finding out then he would. Hence why he would use Danzo to keep Itachi occuppied. Clearly if Itachi sided with Konoha though then it is a problem for Obito because again he doesn't want to see Itachi a part of the Ninja Alliance.
    Nah, if that were the case he would have done more. United Uchiha? He's facing a united Shinobi World now.

    It's as if he got rid of a single tree to make the journey through the entire forest easier. Technically true, but not in a way that matters.

    What secrets do you think Obito is not aware of when he has access to the knowledge of Madara? We don't know how the massacre went down. You are assuming that Obito had to exert himself to the fullest when it is far more likely he let Itachi do most of the work because well Itachi was there and Obito likes to play things close to the vest. Given what I have seen of him in his recent fights and given without Itachi, I am pretty sure he could manipulate some of the members of Akatsuki to help, I see no reason to assume a kid screams.
    See, the basis for your argument here is 'we don't know' and 'I assume'.

    That cuts both ways, which was my point.

    Also you are turning it into way to big of a deal by involving other members. Is this a sneaky assassination or are you turning it into an all out war?

    Having said that, I acknowledge it is a possibility (notice how I don't totally shoot it down as impossible) but simply think it is unlikely given Obito's power levels. I mean hell what is preventing him from using the Zetsu to help him do the deed as I am pretty sure they were around then? Look, you don't have to agree but to try and pretend like it is impossible for one of the best ninja's in the ninja world with access to all of Madara's knowlege and Akatsuki to boot to murder the Uchiha quietly is just you being stubborn when we know Itachi and Obito did it and there is no indication in the story that Obito had to exert himself tremendously to do so.
    Here is the thing you don't know Obito's power levels, not at that point, and even then his power is not that overwhelming for it to defeat the entire Uchiha clan.

    Using Zetsu implies revealing his hand way too much.

    Also no, I am arguing that it is impossible to do it quietly because the manga went out of his way to tell us it was impossible for Itachi to do it alone and quietly, and Itachi was in a way better position for a sneak attack on the Uchiha district than Tobi.

    Also, dude tone down the paragraphs. I'm almost feeling too lazy to read all of it.
    Last edited by Hazard; 12-04-2012 at 08:54 AM.

  5. #2915
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    This really should not need to be said:

    Stop bringing up discussions that I had to tell you to stop because they were becoming personal.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  6. #2916
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    I apologize. I didn't realize it extended to our discussion as well.

  7. #2917
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    This really should not need to be said:

    Stop bringing up discussions that I had to tell you to stop because they were becoming personal.
    To be fair to Hazard, I brought it up but not to reopen it but only to say I am fully capable of accepting the validity of someone's argument while still disagreeing with it.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  8. #2918
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    There is a flaw in your way of thinking.

    Mainly, the only reason Danzo was able to have the Uchiha killed is because Itachi agreed to it.

    That's literally the only way it could have happened, because there is no other guy in Konoha that can do it, save maybe Sarutobi and even then I wouldn't give him as good odds as Itachi.

    Okay, maybe Gai if he Afternoon Tiger'ed the whole district, and even then that would call way too much attention and enough would survive.

    So yeah, once the Uchiha and Konoha are in peace talks Danzo can't do anything.

    You say you want a scenario where everything goes fine? It's the other way around, how could Danzo wipe out the Uchiha clan if Itachi isn't willing to do it?
    That was your original challenge to me Hazard. I have bolded the key parts. Based on the above all that was required by you was for me to present a way for Danzo to get what he wanted without Itachi. I gave you the most obvious because we know for a fact that Obito helped Itachi kill then. So for the record, I answered your challenge as it was laid out to me. It doesn't matter how much you may disagree with it but the simple fact is it is entirely logical that if Obito was willing to kill the Uchiha a clan he was also a member of with Itachi, he would be willing to do so with Danzo. It is entirely logical that Danzo being a senior advisor could get a meeting with Sarutobi and Itachi to discuss the Uchiha ensuring they were not near the Uchiha compound and to provide him with an alibi. It is entirely logical that Obito who fought Minato and survived and who if I am not mistaken injured Itachi (off-panel) prior to Itachi's fight with Sasuke is sufficiently skilled to do the job quietly. And if no one is around when it happens, it would not be revealing his hand if he used the Zetsu or Akatsuki because no one would be alive to tell the tale. I think at this point the dude was also controlling the 4th Mizukage so yeah Obito is plenty powerful.

    Now I went back through the chapters to remind myself. First in Chapter 400 where Obito tells Sasuke the truth, he unequivocally states that right around the time Itachi was debating what to do regarding the Uchiha, he says "Coincidentally, around the same time, I was looking to rekindle the flames of war. Remember at this point, I had a grudge against the Leaf and the Uchiha. In exchange for helping me to take my revenge on the Uchiha Clan, I would agree not to make any moves against the village." I will also add on the same page he says "But the third Hokage simply refused to accept what was going on. He tried everything to convince the others that reconciliation with the Uchiha was the answer. Unfortunately, time ran out and he failed." In flashbacks in 590 we see Itachi say to Obito he can have his revenge on the Uchiha, just don't touch the village or Sasuke. So yeah Obito wanted to take the Uchiha out regardless and Itachi did try other methods. And it was confirmed in Chapter 474 that Obito and Danzo knew of each other as when he meets Danzo, Obito says "Long time no see Danzo, Since the Uchiha incident." So if Itachi did want to do it, Obito could have made a deal with Danzo.

    Now again, you are free to disagree. You are free to take what Obito says with a grain of salt. However, you challenge to me was simple and I provided a clear logical case for my position. If you claim that you have provided a similar case for yours, please direct me to the post or restate it because the only thing you have said to me is that peace could have been achieved without explaining exactly how beyond because Itachi said it was possible. That is not providing a detailed scenario. I want an example of what this peace plan would look like and what each side would have to give up.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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  9. #2919
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Very well, the I'll reply to your point.

    Let's for a moment believe Obito wasn't lying through his teeth, which is unlikely given that his reason for hating the Uchiha was blatantly fake, and that he teams up with Danzo.


    I don't believe a combination of Obito and Danzo could wipe out the Uchiha clan. I see no evidence of it. The success had Itachi in it. Itachi had resources that made the whole thing easier, for example insider's knowledge of everything, being trusted, etc.

    Obito doesn't, and if you want to drag Madara into it, then I'll say it is also impossible for Madara to know as well.

    There is not an ounce of evidence Obito did anything to Itachi.

    Furthermore, there is evidence for Itachi not being able to solo the Uchiha clan in a sneak attack. So why would Obito be able to? More importantly, I see no evidence for he or any Zetsu or Akatsuki using combination to do it quietly, as they lack Itachi. The Uchiha clan was one of the if not the toughest ninja clan around. That's been consistent in just about any time they are talked about. They only fell because their golden child betrayed them.

    As for giving up stuff for peace. What are you talking about? Like I said, it is a simple as saying they are not going to kill each other.

    If you want me to write a story though:

    Right after the Danzo conversation. Itachi goes to the Hokage tell him everything. Then goes to his parents. Tells them everything. With Sasuke present of course, because that's how he described it. Peace talks happen. We get to the previously mentioned, we don't want to kill each other stuff. Stuff goes business as usual.

    Now feel free to write a story too. Because that's what we are doing at this point.

    Super dupper Danzo countermeasures, like I said before, are unneeded.
    Last edited by Hazard; 12-04-2012 at 03:02 PM.

  10. #2920
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Let me try to be as concise as possible.

    1. Itachi by this point was not trusted. He had openly opposed the Uchiha, stopped going to clan meetings, and everyone in the clan thought he was behaving erractically to the point his father stopped favouring him and focused his attention on the previously neglected Sasuke. So I don't think he would fool anyone if he showed up on their doorstep at night.

    2. As far as I can tell, all that happened is they went quietly from house to house and killed most of them while they presumably slept. There could not have been a lot of people awake nor a group of people in the same room/area otherwise it would be impossible that no one screamed. It's probably still absurd that they killed the whole clan without anyone finding out but Obito and Itachi are pretty comparable in skill IMO given what Obito has shown as are other guys in Akatsuki not to mention the Zetsu could impersonate people beyond detection without Naruto around.

    3. As for Obtio vs Itachi, After researching it, I was remembering when the Zetsu’s commented that Itachi looked like he was injured in a previous fight when he was fighting Sasuke which the speculation at the time was it was a fight with Madara/Obito. However, that was most likely the effects of his overusing his powers so I erred in saying it was due to Obito.

    4. So Sarutobi says, Hey Uchiha, just to let you know Itachi the guy you have grown to distrust because he has been acting weird has been secretly spying on you and we know you wanted to overthrow us. By the way one of my most Senior Advisors tried to recruit him to massacre you but I probably won't be punishing him in any way because he would get pissed and start a war and I won't be addressing any of your concerns but let's be friends? That just doesn’t seem to be enough to prevent war and in fact I would say moves us closer to war as now the Uchiha know that key people in Konoha leadership wanted them wiped out thus confirming their paranoia and they are unlikely to believe Sarutobi had not part in it if he is unwilling to punish or reprimand Danzo and the two old farts.

    And of course since it didn't happen in the book it is all speculation. That doesn't mean we can't discuss whether something is plausible. You have certainly be discussing my story so not sure why we shouldn't also discuss yours. It is only fair after all. Or if you feel we have reached an impasse then we can agree to disagree and move on.
    Last edited by remydat; 12-04-2012 at 04:41 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  11. #2921
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    See, we are writing stories.

    We debate on subjective grounds.

    That's what I wanted to avoid, but now it is here.

    And that's boring. And pointless.

    So Ciao.

  12. #2922
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    None of what we were discussing ever happened in the book so it was subjective from the start. You seemed fine with it when it was just my subjective story being debated but now that yours is under debate suddenly it is boring and pointless? Odd but fair enough.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  13. #2923
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Nah, I tried to show you why it was pointless when it started, and had hoped that we could still settle it outside of subjective ground, but it unfortunately got to the point anyway.
    Last edited by Hazard; 12-04-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  14. #2924
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    SO HOW 'BOUT THAT NEW CHAPTER?!

    spoilers:
    Shinobi Alliance does some good teamwork, Madara has an outright stated weakness and the Jyuubi is about to go super sayain.
    end of spoilers

    WHAT DO YA'LL THINK?!
    Nik Hasta: "I'm not a ninja dammit!"

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  15. #2925
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    SO HOW 'BOUT THAT NEW CHAPTER?!

    spoilers:
    Shinobi Alliance does some good teamwork, Madara has an outright stated weakness and the Jyuubi is about to go super sayain.
    end of spoilers

    WHAT DO YA'LL THINK?!
    I wouldn't call it a weakness. It's more that he doesn't have anything to completely nullify physical attacks, and see how that worked out for Tsunade.

    Cool chapter but I wasn't ever convinced that the alliance were doing anything since the bad guys were just standing around.

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