Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Once And Forever]

Yeah but this assumes Uchiha/Konoha are more persuasive than Danzo and that the Konoha Council would change their minds.

They wouldn't have needed to.

You have the Hokage, The Konoha Council (the two old farts) and Danzo who controls much of the secret poilice apparatus if you will. The Konoha Council were emboldened enough to go against Sarutobi's wishes and side with Danzo. They apparently didn't fear facing any repercussions from the Hokage for doing so. Are those two old farts also impossible to punish or kill like Danzo?

Yes, they are. Same reason as him too.

Sorry, I am not sure they would feel any less inclined to go against him even if the Hokage said things were resolved. That is the problem with miliatary or police states, the guys in control of the secret police (Danzo) tend to be the guys with the real power. Given all the real world examples of miliatry/police states, I think it is naive to think reason wins the day once the guys in charge of the secret police decide you are a threat.

When you're the strongest ninja in the ninja village, and you have an alliance with the strongest ninja clan in the village, no, you don't worry about the guy in charge of the secret police. You politely remind him that there's a reason you left him to do the black-ops work, and it wasn't because he knew how to operate in overt warfare. You then point out to him that if he attempts to subvert that alliance in anyway, he can look forward to the other clans of Konoha taking umbridge to such an explicit condemnation of their lifestyle.

[remydat]

They wouldn't have needed to.

Yes, they are. Same reason as him too.

When you're the strongest ninja in the ninja village, and you have an alliance with the strongest ninja clan in the village, no, you don't worry about the guy in charge of the secret police. You politely remind him that there's a reason you left him to do the black-ops work, and it wasn't because he knew how to operate in overt warfare. You then point out to him that if he attempts to subvert that alliance in anyway, he can look forward to the other clans of Konoha taking umbridge to such an explicit condemnation of their lifestyle.

The same people that were happy to have the Uchiha relocated because Danzo believed them to be responsible for the 9 tails attack with absolutely no actual hard evidence? Again, why do you assume that Konoha or the Ninja World in general is made up of reasonable people? These people hate and discriminate for a living.

Fine, give me a plausible scenario of how this peace is brokered that does not involve given the Uchiha's some sort of concessions ie allowing them to return to the village proper or allowing them a larger role in the running of Konoha. And once you do that, explain to me how Danzo can't use those concessions to convince those hating ass people that the Uchiha want to take over the village. Again, this is what the secret police types do. They are good at propaganda.

[Hazard]

There is a flaw in your way of thinking.

Mainly, the only reason Danzo was able to have the Uchiha killed is because Itachi agreed to it.

That's literally the only way it could have happened, because there is no other guy in Konoha that can do it, save maybe Sarutobi and even then I wouldn't give him as good odds as Itachi.

Okay, maybe Gai if he Afternoon Tiger'ed the whole district, and even then that would call way too much attention and enough would survive.

So yeah, once the Uchiha and Konoha are in peace talks Danzo can't do anything.

You say you want a scenario where everything goes fine? It's the other way around, how could Danzo wipe out the Uchiha clan if Itachi isn't willing to do it?

[remydat]

There is a flaw in your way of thinking.

Mainly, the only reason Danzo was able to have the Uchiha killed is because Itachi agreed to it.

That's literally the only way it could have happened, because there is no other guy in Konoha that can do it, save maybe Sarutobi and even then I wouldn't give him as good odds as Itachi.

Okay, maybe Gai if he Afternoon Tiger'ed the whole district, and even then that would call way too much attention and enough would survive.

So yeah, once the Uchiha and Konoha are in peace talks Danzo can't do anything.

You say you want a scenario where everything goes fine? It's the other way around, how could Danzo wipe out the Uchiha clan if Itachi isn't willing to do it?

Because Itachi didn't do it alone. Tobi conveniently showed up to provide assistance. Realistically, if Itachi refused but Danzo still wanted to kill them, it stands to reason Obito would have offered an alliance to do. Danzo would obviously be weary but he won't necessarily look a gift horse in the mouth. And frankly, most of the Uchiha were killed quietly at night. Unless you are telling me Sarutobi and/or Itachi would be holding vigil over the relatively secluded Uchiha compound, Obito could dispose of most of the Uchiha while Danzo and most of his Root goons are having dinner with Sarutobi conveniently giving him an alibi.

And why you might ask would Obito do this? Because Itachi is working towards bringing the Uchiha and Sarutobi together which makes them a threat to Obito's ultimate plan. And why would Danzo agree to help from this shady dude? Because it gives him plausible denialability as no one would believe Danzo could have pulled it off since no one knows about the existence of Obito and after a quick demonstration Obito would be able to convince him that he could kill Itachi who is now a threat since he is not playing ball.

So there you have it. Obito and ultimately Madara's disdain for this world made them willing to help Itachi wipe out their own clan and they would do the same with Danzo. Of course after the deed was done, it would only be a matter of time before each side plotted to get rid of the other.

[Hazard]

Because Itachi didn't do it alone. Tobi conveniently showed up to provide assistance. Realistically, if Itachi refused but Danzo still wanted to kill them, it stands to reason Obito would have offered an alliance to do. Danzo would obviously be weary but he won't necessarily look a gift horse in the mouth. And frankly, most of the Uchiha will killed quietly at night. Unless you are telling me Sarutobi and/or Itachi would be holding vigil over the relatively secluded Uchiha compound, most of those guys are get killed while Danzo is having dinner with Sarutobi conveniently giving him an alibi. And why you might ask would Obito do this? Because Itachi is working towards bringing the Uchiha and Sarutobi together which makes them a threat to Obito's plan. And why would Danzo agree to help from this shady dude? Because it gives him plausible denialability and after a quick demonstration Obito would be able to convince him that he could kill Itachi who is now a threat.

So there you have it. Obito and ultimately Madara's disdain for this world made them willing to help Itachi wipe out their own clan do the same with Danzo before ultimately getting rid of Danzo ultimately.

So the point you are making is that Danzo's plan would have failed anyway had Obito not being there?

Furthermore, you seem to think Danzo would have allied with the guy claiming to be Madara.

And to top it off, you don't seem to take into account that you're pointing out it took not one but 2 Kage Cass ninja to do what Danzo wanted to do and they had to be sneaky about it.

Seriously, the Uchiha clan is a ninja clan, emphasis on ninja.

Sidenote: Itachi is also and Uchiha. So you seem to think Danzo could kill a combination of Itachi plus the rest of the Uchiha. That's not even adding the rest of Konoha into the equation.

So yeah, you're being far too pessimistic about the situation and giving Danzo entirely too much credit. Like ridiculous amount of credit. I mean yeah, he is a guy with a secret police, but the rest of Konoha is also a secret police.

[The Drunkard Kid]

That is why I likened it to the conflict between the Tokugawa Shogunate and the losers of the Battle of Sekigahara. Satsuma and Choshu domains (spme of the losers) were some of the most prosperous domains during the Tokugawa era and were allowed a lot of freedom when it came to self-government. They were also restricted and subject to a glass ceiling whereby they could never rise above a certain level within Japenses government. They were also required to spend a certain time in the captial and their wife and main heir were required to always live in said capital effectively as permanent hostages. This Sankin Kotai as it was called also meant that every 6-12 months an outside lord as they were known had to expend a lot of resources moving back and forth between the captial and thier home province. It helped to drain their capital. They also needed to send they best young mean (aka the equivalent of their Sasukes) to join the army.

Point is no one is suggesting they were slaves but the book made it pretty clear there were not exactly full participants in Konoha. I don't think for example, any Uchiha could become Hokage. And yes there were other people who maybe had it worst. However, just because one group accepts being discriminated against doesn't mean every group should or will. By this logic no group should ever rebel because some group probably always has it worse and has accepted their lot in life.

There was absolutely no indication that they were being discriminated against outside of the fact that they lived in their own district but A) the Uchiha were originally a clan comparable to the original Konoha in size and B) they are an extremely insular and secretive clan, even for ninja, and probably prefer it that way (I don't think its ever been directly shown, but I'm willing to bet that most/all Hyuuga live in the same region for much the same reason). And that's not even taking into account the fact that they probably wouldn't want anyone sneaking to a lone Uchiha household and kidnapping someone for their bloodline limits like what almost happened to Hinata.

They may have been under suspicion and had limited upward mobility (from their current position of ridiculously highly ranked and well liked ninja nobles) at the moment due to the fact that there was some suspicion of one or more treasonous Uchiha when their progenitor's personal pet slaughtered the leader of the village, his wife, and a good chunk of the village besides. While sporting giant Sharingan eyes.

However, there is no indication that they were having their movements limited, any members held hostage, or even the hypothetical glass ceiling. Only that they were under suspicion due to a significant amount of circumstantial evidence which just happened to be completely accurate. The rational response would have been investigation, a positive PR campaign to underline the loyalty they had to Konoha, and cooperating with the hyper-popular Hokage that is bending over backwards to try and turn a blind eye towards the fact that an Uchiha almost certainly murdered his succesor and went 9/11 on the village as well as their current treasonous plans.

Of course, that is predicated on any Uchiha having an iota of control over their Drama Gland, so an attempted Civil War followed by a giant incestuous orgy of death which in turn led to repeated mind rape in order to convince someone to murder their beloved brother while the only other survivor buids Ocean's 11: Terrorist Edition to mind rape the world was pretty much the most reasonable course of events possible .

[Hazard]

Of course, that is predicated on any Uchiha having an iota of control over their Drama Gland, so an attempted Civil War followed by a giant incestuous orgy of death which in turn led to repeated mind rape in order to convince someone to murder their beloved brother while the only other survivor buids Ocean's 11: Terrorist Edition to mind rape the world was pretty much the most reasonable course of events possible .

Quoting this for prosperity.

[remydat]

So the point you are making is that Danzo's plan would have failed anyway had Obito not being there?

Furthermore, you seem to think Danzo would have allied with the guy claiming to be Madara.

And to top it off, you don't seem to take into account that you're pointing out it took not one but 2 Kage Cass ninja to do what Danzo wanted to do and they had to be sneaky about it.

Seriously, the Uchiha clan is a ninja clan, emphasis on ninja.

Sidenote: Itachi is also and Uchiha. So you seem to think Danzo could kill a combination of Itachi plus the rest of the Uchiha. That's not even adding the rest of Konoha into the equation.

So yeah, you're being far too pessimistic about the situation and giving Danzo entirely too much credit. Like ridiculous amount of credit. I mean yeah, he is a guy with a secret police, but the rest of Konoha is also a secret police.

No, you asked for a scenario and I gave you the easiest and most effective one. Now all of a sudden after giving you what you asked you want to change the game. And you are assuming that Obito would have claimed to be Madara when he approached Danzo. I don't think he would have to. When a powerful ninja presents you with a solution to your biggest problem, I don't think you worry if he doesn't want to give you a name. And frankly I think Obito could have wiped out all the Uchiha minus Itachi on his own. He didn't have to because Itachi was there. All he would need from Danzo is to keep Itachi and Sarutobi occupied at that dinner while Obito did the deed. Hell, if you want, he could have got whatever parts of Akatsuki that were around at that time to help.

I answered your question now are you going to answer mine? Give me a scenario where Sarutobi can make peace without offering concessions to the Uchiha that doesn't inflame the fears fo the very village that deemed it necessary to relocate them outside the village after the 9 tails attack?

[Totoro Man]

LOL

"Drama Gland"

[Hazard]

No, you asked for a scenario and I gave you the easiest and most effective one. Now all of a sudden after giving you what you asked you want to change the game. And you are assuming that Obito would have claimed to be Madara when he approached Danzo. I don't think he would have to. When a powerful ninja presents you with a solution to your biggest problem, I don't think you worry if he doesn't want to give you a name. And frankly I think Obito could have wiped out all the Uchiha minus Itachi on his own. He didn't have to because Itachi was there. All he would need from Danzo is to keep Itachi and Sarutobi occupied at that dinner while Obito did the deed. Hell, if you want, he could have got whatever parts of Akatsuki that were around at that time to help.

I answered your question now are you going to answer mine? Give me a scenario where Sarutobi can make peace without offering concessions to the Uchiha that doesn't inflame the fears fo the very village that deemed it necessary to relocate them outside the village after the 9 tails attack?

Game?

You gave me a scenario and it is full of holes. I'm merely pointing them out.

I mean, how does Danzo distract Itachi and Sarutobi? Dinner?

"Saru, my good friend. How does dinner at my place sound?"

"...are you okay?"

"What? Me? Totally. Nah, I was just thinking we so don't spent time together anymore."

"... because you are doing your secret Root assassin things."

"Speaking of assassins, we should totally invite Itachi too."

"..."

Basically, what you gave might as well be equal to me saying "But as that was happening, a kid catches sight of Obito and screams, thus waking up the rest of the clan. Sound of battle then draws the rest of Konoha and Obito is forced to flee/killed."

Sidenote: We never, ever, see a single villager discriminating against the Uchiha. Not in any single flashback we have had.

[remydat]

There was absolutely no indication that they were being discriminated against outside of the fact that they lived in their own district but A) the Uchiha were originally a clan comparable to the original Konoha in size and B) they are an extremely insular and secretive clan, even for ninja, and probably prefer it that way (I don't think its ever been directly shown, but I'm willing to bet that most/all Hyuuga live in the same region for much the same reason). And that's not even taking into account the fact that they probably wouldn't want anyone sneaking to a lone Uchiha household and kidnapping someone for their bloodline limits like what almost happened to Hinata.

They may have been under suspicion and had limited upward mobility (from their current position of ridiculously highly ranked and well liked ninja nobles) at the moment due to the fact that there was some suspicion of one or more treasonous Uchiha when their progenitor's personal pet slaughtered the leader of the village, his wife, and a good chunk of the village besides. While sporting giant Sharingan eyes.

However, there is no indication that they were having their movements limited, any members held hostage, or even the hypothetical glass ceiling. Only that they were under suspicion due to a significant amount of circumstantial evidence which just happened to be completely accurate. The rational response would have been investigation, a positive PR campaign to underline the loyalty they had to Konoha, and cooperating with the hyper-popular Hokage that is bending over backwards to try and turn a blind eye towards the fact that an Uchiha almost certainly murdered his succesor and went 9/11 on the village as well as their current treasonous plans.

Of course, that is predicated on any Uchiha having an iota of control over their Drama Gland, so an attempted Civil War followed by a giant incestuous orgy of death which in turn led to repeated mind rape in order to convince someone to murder their beloved brother while the only other survivor buids Ocean's 11: Terrorist Edition to mind rape the world was pretty much the most reasonable course of events possible .

They were relocated so that Danzo could monitor them more closely after the attacks. That is the reason given as I remember it and when I double checked it on the Naruto Wiki. If I am misinformed let me know. And you are basically saying because one person potentially committed a crime that means it's ok to be suspicious of the entire group of people. Sounds kind of like how most prejudice or discrimination happens. Oh hey, a black guy most certainly committed this crime so lets segregate all the black people into one community, lol. Only in fiction do people try and justify this stuff.

Look, the ninja world is screwed up. Konoha is not some beautiful Utopia. Danzo is not a Uchiha and he is a grade A prick. Kakashi is not a Uchiha and his dad was ostracized for saving a comrade rather than completing a mission. He committed suicide. There are plenty examples of how screwed up this world is and all of this is taking place under the wonderful Hokage's watch. Point is these guys are no saints but the victors get to write history and so the history written is that the Uchiha and anyone who disagrees with Konoha are the bad guys while those peace loving Hokage's of Konoha ordering all these assassinations, and overseeing a village that hates a kid because of his father's selfless act to save them are somehow the good guys.

The reality is if Madara wasn't such a dick and trying to impose his will on the whole world, I would be a hell of a lot more sympathetic to his cause. The whole system needs to be overthrown point blank.

[remydat]

Game?

You gave me a scenario and it is full of holes. I'm merely pointing them out.

I mean, how does Danzo distract Itachi and Sarutobi? Dinner?

"Saru, my good friend. How does dinner at my place sound?"

"...are you okay?"

"What? Me? Totally. Nah, I was just thinking we so don't spent time together anymore."

"... because you are doing your secret Root assassin things."

"Speaking of assassins, we should totally invite Itachi too."

"..."

Basically, what you gave might as well be equal to me saying "But as that was happening, a kid catches sight of Obito and screams, thus waking up the rest of the clan. Sound of battle then draws the rest of Konoha and Obito is forced to flee/killed."

Sidenote: We never, ever, see a single villager discriminating against the Uchiha. Not in any single flashback we have had.

The dinner thing was lighthearted. It is absurd to think Danzo is incapable of getting Sarutobi and Itachi in the same room together if he wanted to as if he is not one of the most powerful and influential people. Hell all he would have to do his invite Sarutobi, the two old farts, and Itachi (his subordinate as you know) to a meeting to discuss the Uchiha situation privately. Again, if all his Root goons are there as well when the Uchiha get slaughtered, there is no way to tie it back to him.

The simple fact is this. Obito wanted the Uchiha dead just as much as Danzo. The only thing that would concern him is to not have to fight Itachi at the same time which is why it is quite logical that he would ally with Danzo to keep Itachi occupied. So yeah a kid might scream just like a kid might have screamed when it was Itachi and Obito. Of course, we know a kid didn't scream and Itachi and Obito were long gone before anyone intervened. So your scenario is possibly just not likely.

And I see you still have yet to answer my question. You may try to find holes but at least I answered your question despite my asking you the question first. So are you going to debate in good faith or continue to evade my question? You guys have had all day to propose a scenario while I gave you a scenario in what less than a few minutes after you asked the question?

[Dark Soul # 7]

Yes the plan sucked, I am asking what was the alternative? As you said, the powers that be seemed to be leaning towards killing the whole clan including Sasuke. Sarutobi was either completely oblivious to the plan or while opposing it didn't really seem to do much to stop Danzo and the gang. In fact was Danzo or any of those who supported the plan punished by Sarutobi afterward? So was the peaceful option really even an option if the guy proposing it seemed completely ineffectual in preventing Danzo and the gang from getting their way.

How does not being able to stop something that happened behind ones back equal not being able to negotiate a peace treaty successfully? As far as I know Danzou didn't give the peace talks a chance to really happen, and neither did Itachi, because they feared for the village. So they jumped the gun and had Itachi, and Obito disguised as Madara, kill the clan. Would the peace talks have been effective? We will never know.

As for Sarutobi not punishing Danzou. Shit happens. The problem was solved and Itachi took the patsy role. Sarutobi probably didn't like it all that much but that's the way stuff rolled. Can't make too much of a fuzz or attentions will start to go to the wrong places.

A fact that Itachi being in the Anbu is likely fully aware of?

Then again, the entire thing hinged on Itachi agreeing to it, going at it with a bigger force would've brought on way too much attention and they wouldn't have a single sacrifical lamb to pin it all on. Considering what's been discussed before in regards to how Itachi is the perfect ninja under the flawed system of the traditional ninja world Danzou was probably pretty certaint that Itachi would follow orders like a good little soldier.

So again, I will ask what choice realistically does the soldier have when his superiors tell him to kill? If he told them no, do you really think Sarutobi's solution would have won out?

Like I said, we will never know. But I would like to believe that that would've been the case.

Unlikely, all that would have happened is Danzo and company would have tried to exterminate the Uchiha including Sasuke and the Civil War would ensue. Itachi came to that grim realisation.

Again, the plan hinged on Itachi doing it all so that they could pin it on him. Going at it with a large assassination squad would probably have caused too much commotion and possibly even started the civil war and that would've all been on Danzou's head. He would've triggered the war, not the Uchiha clan. There were too much of a risk to got for it if Itachi said no.

And again, if Itachi had refused Sasuke would still have gone down a dark path. He would be a kid who can't defend himself in a war where Konoha considered him the enemy. Itachi's plan offered the only chance for him to live peaceably in Konoha by making Sasuke hate him to cover up the fact that Konoha was the real enemy.

This all assume that Danzou would've attacked the clan and that the peace talks would fail. Neither of which is certain.

And Itachi's plan was for Sasuke to NOT live a peaceful life in Konoha because that detracted from the hate he wanted Sasuke to build up. When Sasuke was starting to live a peaceful life with friends and the respect of his elders Itachi mind-raped him and called him a wimp for not having enough hate.

So by all means, tell me what his alternative was that makes sense within the context of the scenario Kishi set up?

For which part? The dealing with the Uchiha clan part or the how Itachi could've dealt with Sasuke part?

[Hazard]

The dinner thing was lighthearted. It is absurd to think Danzo is incapable of getting Sarutobi and Itachi in the same room together if he wanted to as if he is not one of the most powerful and influential people. Hell all he would have to do his invite Sarutobi, the two old farts, and Itachi (his subordinate as you know) to a meeting to discuss the Uchiha situation privately. Again, if all his Root goons are there as well when the Uchiha get slaughtered, there is no way to tie it back to him.

And what gives Danzo the right to do that?

Sarutobi is the Hokage, not him. Itachi is Sarutobi's subordinate not him.

Also, you really think his Root goons are going to kill the Uchiha? Seriously?

The simple fact is this. Obito wanted the Uchiha dead just as much as Danzo. The only thing that would concern him is to not have to fight Itachi at the same time which is why it is quite logical that he would ally with Danzo to keep Itachi occupied.

Why does Obito want the Uchiha dead? No, serious question. Did he want the Uchiha dead or did he want Itachi on his side?

The guy is a nihilist at his core, so killing the Uchiha seems like something he just won't go out of his way to do.

So yeah a kid might scream just like a kid might have screamed when it was Itachi and Obito. Of course, we know a kid didn't scream and Itachi and Obito were long gone before anyone intervened. So your scenario is possibly just not likely.

And there is the validity of your scenario.

It didn't happen in the first time, when the deed was done by one of the best members of the clan with access to all its secrets and another ninja. But now the info source is gone. Conditions are radically difference and killing the Uchiha, equates to killing the best ninja clan in all Konoha.

Kid screaming. Fireballs. Security. Konoha Anbu. All are equally likely now.

And I see you still have yet to answer my question. You may try to find holes but at least I answered your question despite my asking you the question first. So are you going to debate in good faith or continue to evade my question? You guys have had all day to propose a scenario while I gave you a scenario in what less than a few minutes after you asked the question?

How comfortable.

Here is what would happen if I were to give you a scenario (like the ones I have already proposed). You would make up your own counter scenario and dismiss it. No ifs or buts there.

You're so convinced in your view that you have turned Danzo from well-intentioned extremist to homicidal madman determined to kill all Uchiha, who is apparently the real power in Konoha.

You seem to think there is a need for serious Danzo counter measure. I don't (hence why I don't really bother). Being in the open is the limit of his power. The manga went to great lengths to highlight this.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Odd little question that just entered my head.

Why did Obito try to reveal his face to Sasuke after the Itachi-fight? It wouldn't have done much of anything for him really since Sasuke probably wouldn't have trusted him mask or no mask (I doubt that Sasuke ever really trusted "Madara").

Also, I wonder if an activated but unfocused byakugan is similar to Detective mode in Arkham Asylum/City.