Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Hazard]

Yeah that is my point though. Whatever the reason, Itachi is a part of Anbu. He knows how Danzo is and he knows that for whatever reason the dude is allowed to get his way. So I think expecting Itachi to trust that Sarutobi could have prevented Danzo from getting what he wanted is a stretch. The fact that Sarutobi found out about the plan after the fact from Itachi and did absolutely nothing to the guy who sanctioned genocide is proof of that IMO.

Actually, Itachi does acknowledge things could have gone differently if he had been upfront about it with Sasuke and he had pushed both sides to talk things out like Sarutobi wanted. Oh, missed opportunities.

Oh, just thought about it! New reason for not punishing Danzo:

It would be admitting they did it.

There are so many ramifications there, that I can totally see why they kept quiet about it.

[remydat]

Actually, Itachi does acknowledge things could have gone differently if he had been upfront about it with Sasuke and he had pushed both sides to talk things out like Sarutobi wanted. Oh, missed opportunities.

Oh, just thought about it! New reason for not punishing Danzo:

It would be admitting they did it.

There are so many ramifications there, that I can totally see why they kept quiet about it.

That is Itachi's opinion which I would expect a dude who slaughtered his clan to have doubts about it. Who can really live with being a kinslayer without thinking maybe there was another way? That doesn't in fact prove there was just that Itachi is not a cold bolded psychopath.

And of course I can understand why they didn't punish Danzo but that doesn't make it right from the perspective of Sasuke. Your family was murdered by your brother because the militant factions of your village pressured him to do so. Those factions were not punished and your brother is considered a traitor so that the real culprits can stay hidden. Some people may accept that and move on. Others like Sasuke will not.

I just find it odd that there seems to be more disdain for Itachi who was a 16-19 year old kid than the adults who orchestrated the massacre, the village that practiced the discrimination that contributed to the Uchiha animosity and the leader who couldn't effectively police and control the militant factions of his government.

Sorry, I expect the adults to be adults. If you are incapable as a leader of you know actually leading your people then you shouldn't be a leader. That doesn't excuse Itachi for his role in the whole sordid affair but things need to be put in perspective. I judge him the least harshly out of everyone involved including the ineffectual leader Sarutobi. This gets to why the Ninja world is so screwed up because if Sarutobi's name was Obama, he would be impeached hella quick for covering up such a heinous crime committed by factions of his government. He would probably also end up at the Hague for crimes against humanity.

[Hazard]

That is Itachi's opinion which I would expect a dude who slaughtered his clan to have doubts about it. Who can really live with being a kinslayer without thinking maybe there was another way? That doesn't in fact prove there was just that Itachi is not a cold bolded psychopath.

Personally, I want to think it could have ended another way.

And of course I can understand why they didn't punish Danzo but that doesn't make it right from the perspective of Sasuke. Your family was murdered by your brother because the militant factions of your village pressured him to do so. Those factions were not punished and your brother is considered a traitor so that the real culprits can stay hidden. Some people may accept that and move on. Others like Sasuke will not.

Oh, of course, Sasuke has a very strong reason to seek revenge on Danzo and the leadership of Konoha.

The rest of Konoha is a different story, but as far as Danzo and those advisers go, yes.

I just find it odd that there seems to be more disdain for Itachi who was a 16-19 year old kid than the adults who orchestrated the massacre, the village that practiced the discrimination that contributed to the Uchiha animosity and the leader who couldn't effectively police and control the militant factions of his government.

I don't think this is the case.

Certainly there are people who don't like Itachi, but I don't think they will go as far as to say Danzo is better.

Itachi is just more polarizing is all. Kind of like Sasuke.

Sorry, I expect the adults to be adults. If you are incapable as a leader of you know actually leading your people then you shouldn't be a leader. There is no civilized citizenry in the world that would look at what happened under Sarutobi's watch and his not punishing Danzo for pressuring a kid into genocide for fear of the truth being known and say you know what that kid is the real bastard in all of this and poor Sarutobi was just too kind hearted. That doesn't excuse Itachi for his role in the whole sordid affair but things need to be put in perspective. I judge him the least harshly out of everyone involved including the ineffectual leader Sarutobi.

Meh. All governments have shady, horrible deeds.

All of them.

Some are just better at hiding it.

Also, remember this isn't even a regular goverment. They are ninja. Killing people is a big part of what they do. What happened to Itachi is horrible, but it is far from being the only black spot in ninja history or even Konoha's history.

As for punishing Danzo.

You would get a civil war.

No ifs or buts there. You would have a civil war in your hands there.

Ironically the reason Danzo can't be punished for the Uchiha massacre is because it happened in the first place.

[remydat]

Personally, I want to think it could have ended another way.

Oh, of course, Sasuke has a very strong reason to seek revenge on Danzo and the leadership of Konoha.

The rest of Konoha is a different story, but as far as Danzo and those advisers go, yes.

I don't think this is the case.

Certainly there are people who don't like Itachi, but I don't think they will go as far as to say Danzo is better.

Itachi is just more polarizing is all. Kind of like Sasuke.

Meh. All governments have shady, horrible deeds.

All of them.

Some are just better at hiding it.

Also, remember this isn't even a regular goverment. They are ninja. Killing people is a big part of what they do. What happened to Itachi is horrible, but it is far from being a the only black spot in ninja history or even Konoha's history.

As for punishing Danzo.

You would get a civil war.

No ifs or buts there. You would have a civil war in your hands there.

Ironically the reason Danzo can't be punished for the Uchiha masacree is because it happened in the first place.

Like I said earlier what makes Sasuke a blood-thirsty lunatic is not his wanting revenge against the Konoha government but rather whether he ends up killing a lot of innocents to seek that revenge.

And yes people likely hate Danzo more but again I think Sarutobi was also a part of the problem and he generally gets a pass. A leader has to be able to control the people he leads or punish them when they commit heinous crimes and Sarutobi couldn't or wouldn't.

The logic just feels inconsistent to me. To summarize what I think is your position, there was another way of saving Konoha that involved convincing Danzo and would not have resulted in him refusing and plunging the village into Civil War. However after convincing Itachi to do the deed, there was no way to convince Danzo he needed to be punished for his crimes or to kill him quietly like ninjas as you admitted are prone to do without it resulting in Civil War. I would think Sarutobi had the power to do both or lacked the power to do either. I just don't think it makes sense he could convince or deal with Danzo in the first instance but not the second. But there is no definitive proof either way so to each his own I suppose.

[1505627]

for the record i find danzo more sympathetic than sasuke

[The Drunkard Kid]

I find it difficult to see the Uchiha as an oppressed population when they were the friggin' police force and the higher ups were such giddy schoolgirls about seeing Sasuke fight during the Chuunin Exams that they essentially snubbed the son of the Kazekage by delaying his fight so that Sasuke wouldn't be DQ'd.

Yeah, maybe Danzo's faction was putting pressure on them after Madara Uchiha's pet came out of nowhere and slaughtered a massive portion of their population and their super popular Hokage as well, but there was no indication that it would end up being so anywhere near Civil War/Familicide levels if they had't been planning a military uprising in a town whose entire economy is essentially based on murdering people.

You wanna see an oppressed clan? The Hyuuga Branch Family says, "Hello." And even that is arguably better than how Haku's family was treated in Mizugakure.

[Hazard]

Like I said earlier what makes Sasuke a blood-thirsty lunatic is not his wanting revenge against the Konoha government but rather whether he ends up killing a lot of innocents to seek that revenge.

Never disagreed with this.

And yes people likely hate Danzo more but again I think Sarutobi was also a part of the problem and he generally gets a pass. A leader has to be able to control the people he leads or punish them when they commit heinous crimes and Sarutobi couldn't or wouldn't.

Meh, shit happens.

Yeah, it is simplifying it a lot, but it doesn't make it less true..

The logic just feels inconsistent to me. To summarize what I think is your position, there was another way of saving Konoha that involved convincing Danzo and would not have resulted in him refusing and plunging the village into Civil War. However after convincing Itachi to do the deed, there was no way to convince Danzo he needed to be punished for his crimes or to kill him quietly like ninjas as you admitted are prone to do without it resulting in Civil War. I would think Sarutobi had the power to do both or lacked the power to do either. I just don't think it makes sense he could convince or deal with Danzo in the first instance but not the second. But there is no definitive proof either way so to each his own I suppose.

Not sure where you got the bolded. I said, Itachi acknowledged that if he got the Leaf and the Uchiha to talk instead of listening to Danzo, thing could have worked out.

As for punishing Danzo, let's walk through the scenearios:


Sneaky Ninja Assassination:

Danzo: You do realize I am a sneaky ninja assassin, right? I, like, have my own army of sneaky ninja assassins that are sneakier than your sneaky ninja assassins. I deal with sneaky ninja assassinations every freaking Tuesday!

Punishment (Non-Lethal. Jail Time):

This is one is has a lot of possibilities.

1) Danzo gets jailed (Best Possible Scenario):

Danzo has Root. They don't follow the guy because he has a rank. They don't follow him because he has money. They follow him out of sheer devotion and a healthy dose of being emotionless tools to varying degrees. Point is, even if you jail Danzo, he has Root and Root will listen to Danzo even jailed, so even jailed Danzo can carry on his business, giving orders and what not from jail.

2) Danzo gets jailed or even executed but the information of why somehow (Danzo) gets out:

Akimichi: Oh, so that's how it is.

Inuzuka: So that's how little clans like us actually matter to the village.

Hyuuga: In the end, we are just treated as servants then?

Hyuuga Branch: Funny you should mention that-

Hyuuga: Silence, Servant!


Anyway, point is no other clan would feel comfortable with crap like that. This goes beyond 'Impeach the guy' and well into "Well, if Konoha treats us like this then we don't need Konoha."

3) Danzo fights back:

Sarutobi decides to punish Danzo. Danzo, realizing he went to far and is backed into a corner, uses his considerable influence and Army (Root) to launch his own coup.

Cue ugly war as families find themselves fighting each other and it gets even more messy if the truth of the massacre gets out.

[remydat]

I find it difficult to see the Uchiha as an oppressed population when they were the friggin' police force and the higher ups were such giddy schoolgirls about seeing Sasuke fight during the Chuunin Exams that they essentially snubbed the son of the Kazekage by delaying his fight so that Sasuke wouldn't be DQ'd.

Yeah, maybe Danzo's faction was putting pressure on them after Madara Uchiha's pet came out of nowhere and slaughtered a massive portion of their population and their super popular Hokage as well, but there was no indication that it would end up being so anywhere near Civil War/Familicide levels if they had't been planning a military uprising in a town whose entire economy is essentially based on murdering people.

You wanna see an oppressed clan? The Hyuuga Branch Family says, "Hello." And even that is arguably better than how Haku's family was treated in Mizugakure.

That is why I likened it to the conflict between the Tokugawa Shogunate and the losers of the Battle of Sekigahara. Satsuma and Choshu domains (spme of the losers) were some of the most prosperous domains during the Tokugawa era and were allowed a lot of freedom when it came to self-government. They were also restricted and subject to a glass ceiling whereby they could never rise above a certain level within Japenses government. They were also required to spend a certain time in the captial and their wife and main heir were required to always live in said capital effectively as permanent hostages. This Sankin Kotai as it was called also meant that every 6-12 months an outside lord as they were known had to expend a lot of resources moving back and forth between the captial and thier home province. It helped to drain their capital. They also needed to send they best young mean (aka the equivalent of their Sasukes) to join the army.

Point is no one is suggesting they were slaves but the book made it pretty clear there were not exactly full participants in Konoha. I don't think for example, any Uchiha could become Hokage. And yes there were other people who maybe had it worst. However, just because one group accepts being discriminated against doesn't mean every group should or will. By this logic no group should ever rebel because some group probably always has it worse and has accepted their lot in life.

[remydat]

Never disagreed with this.

Meh, shit happens.

Yeah, it is simplifying it a lot, but it doesn't make it less true..

Not sure where you got the bolded. I said, Itachi acknowledged that if he got the Leaf and the Uchiha to talk instead of listening to Danzo, thing could have worked out.

As for punishing Danzo, let's walk through the scenearios:

Sneaky Ninja Assassination:

Danzo: You do realize I am a sneaky ninja assassin, right? I, like, have my own army of sneaky ninja assassins that are sneakier than your sneaky ninja assassins. I deal with sneaky ninja assassinations every freaking Tuesday!

Punishment (Non-Lethal. Jail Time):

This is one is has a lot of possibilities.

1) Danzo gets jailed (Best Possible Scenario):

Danzo has Root. They don't follow the guy because he has a rank. They don't follow him because he has money. They follow him out of sheer devotion and a healthy dose of being emotionless tools to varying degrees. Point is, even if you jail Danzo, he has Root and Root will listen to Danzo even jailed, so even jailed Danzo can carry on his business, giving orders and what not from jail.

2) Danzo gets jailed or even executed but the information of why somehow (Danzo) gets out:

Akimichi: Oh, so that's how it is.

Inuzuka: So that's how little clans like us actually matter to the village.

Hyuuga: In the end, we are just treated as servants then?

Hyuuga Branch: Funny you should mention that-

Hyuuga: Silence, Servant!


Anyway, point is no other clan would feel comfortable with crap like that. This goes beyond 'Impeach the guy' and well into "Well, if Konoha treats us like this then we don't need Konoha."

3) Danzo fights back:

Sarutobi decides to punish Danzo. Danzo, realizing he went to far and is backed into a corner, uses his considerable influence and Army (Root) to launch his own coup.

Cue ugly war as families find themselves fighting each other and it gets even more messy if the truth of the massacre gets out.

I brought up the Sasuke thing because I thought you may have missed my saying the same thing since you brought it up in your post.

And my point is the Leaf and Uchiha talking is irrelevant if Danzo still sees them as a threat. You just offered up all the people Danzo has on his side and you think Danzo and Root would care if Sarutobi said don't worry guys I worked out things with the Uchiha? Again, this is my point, if Danzo is too stubborn to be reasoned with regarding being punished and has better sneaky assassins that he can't be killed then I am not sure why you think Danzo would be convinced that the Uchiha are no longer a threat because Sarutobi and the Uchiha said so. The fundamental problem here is not only the Uchiha being disgruntled but that Sarutobi allowed a guy like Danzo to acquire the power he has. The Uchiha were doomed the minute Danzo considered them a threat. Even if he was inclined to believe Sarutobi and the Uchiha had worked it out, I think he still would want to wipe them out because he would have no guarantee that it was not just a temporary reprieve.

[The Once And Forever]

Danzo wasn't going to be able to force a united Uchiha/Konoha front to do a damned thing.

If they had worked it out and presented that front to him, he'd have to shut his mouth and continue trying to find other ways to undermine the whole thing. It is naive to think they could have forced a change-of-heart out of Danzo, but together they could reduced his options real quick.

[Hazard]

Danzo wasn't going to be able to force a united Uchiha/Konoha front to do a damned thing.

If they had worked it out and presented that front to him, he'd have to shut his mouth and continue trying to find other ways to undermine the whole thing. It is naive to think they could have forced a change-of-heart out of Danzo, but together they could reduced his options real quick.

That pretty much. If the talks were already on the way and everyone was being up front about that then Danzo's methods are less needed and as a consequence his options limited.

Basically, Danzo is the root. So long as it is all sneaky stuff, he can do anything. Once it is under the sunlight though, he can't reach.

[remydat]

Danzo wasn't going to be able to force a united Uchiha/Konoha front to do a damned thing.

If they had worked it out and presented that front to him, he'd have to shut his mouth and continue trying to find other ways to undermine the whole thing. It is naive to think they could have forced a change-of-heart out of Danzo, but together they could reduced his options real quick.

Yeah but this assumes Uchiha/Konoha are more persuasive than Danzo and that the Konoha Council would change their minds. You have the Hokage, The Konoha Council (the two old farts) and Danzo who controls much of the secret poilice apparatus if you will. The Konoha Council were emboldened enough to go against Sarutobi's wishes and side with Danzo. They apparently didn't fear facing any repercussions from the Hokage for doing so. Are those two old farts also impossible to punish or kill like Danzo?

Sorry, I am not sure they would feel any less inclined to go against him even if the Hokage said things were resolved. That is the problem with miliatary or police states, the guys in control of the secret police (Danzo) tend to be the guys with the real power. Given all the real world examples of miliatry/police states, I think it is naive to think reason wins the day once the guys in charge of the secret police decide you are a threat.

[Hazard]

the Konoha Council

Just a thing.

There is no Council.

They are advisers. They probably have some pull, but they don't have an official position or anything like that.

There is no Konoha Council outside of the minds of fanfic writers.

[Hazard]

Double Post

[remydat]

Just a thing.

There is no Council.

They are advisers. They probably have some pull, but they don't have an official position or anything like that.

There is no Konoha Council outside of the minds of fanfic writers.

I went to look them up after the other poster mentioned them and they have their own wiki page. Look I don't care what you want to call them. They along with the Hokage and Danzo seem to be the power structure of Konoha. I just remembered too after going back and trying to refresh my memory on how that whole affair went down that Danzo ultimately was elected the 6th Hokage after the Pain invasion. Granted it was by the Lords but yeah this dude not only didn't get punished by anyone, he eventually got a promotion. Genocide is a good career move in the Ninja World apparently.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Konoha_Council

Anyways, after refreshing my memory more, I am becoming less and less convinced that there was any chance Danzo was not going to find a way to get rid of the Uchiha. It was Danzo who convinced everyone to relocate the Uchiha after the 9 tails attack because he suspected their involvement as a clan as opposed to the reality of a rogue Uchiha being responsible. Did Sarutobi stand up for the Uchiha? Did anyone? Nope their asses got relocated because that is what Danzo wanted. How was Sarutobi going to make peace with the Uchiha? By allowing them to move back closer to the village? I am sure that would have gone over well with Danzo and all the other people that were happy to believe the Uchiha Clan was responsible for the 9 tails attack.

Sorry, all that hatred and fear of the Uchiha that Danzo cultivated doesn't suddenly disappear because Itachi is sad he murdered his clan and thinks there may have been another way. These same people pretty much hated a little boy because his Dad in order to save the village put the 9 tails in him. Did they appreciate that awesome sacrifice by Minato. Nope, they hated that little bastard. Only because of Naruto's Jesus no Jutsu as you call it and his saving the village from Pain was he able to convince them otherwise and unfortunately for Itachi and the Uchiha, Naruto wasn't as adept in his Jesus no Jutso back then to help them. That is kind of the point of the story that Naruto is special and only someone like him can overcome the inherent fear, hatred, and discrimination that is characterstic of the ninja world.

Now that I think about it, maybe just maybe, the only person that could have changed things for the Uchiha was Obito. He was the Naruto before Naruto but unfortunately his getting crushed by that rock, meeting Madara and seing Kakashi murder Rin ended his Jesus no Jutsu. In fact, I will say the Uchiha Clan died the day Obito got crushed by that rock and they just didn't realise it, lol.