Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Hazard]

What chapter was the Akatsuki meeting again?

There were a lot. I was mostly thinking on the one where Deidara asks Itachi for Naruto's name, and he instead tells them it would be the first one to open his mouth. It always struck me as odd they didn't know it. Should be on the Gaara Rescue Arc.

Afterwards, Kakuzu and Hidan also seemed to have no idea where to find Naruto.

[Totoro Man]

There were a lot. I was mostly thinking on the one where Deidara asks Itachi for Naruto's name, and he instead tells them it would be the first one to open his mouth. It always struck me as odd they didn't know it. Should be on the Gaara Rescue Arc.

Afterwards, Kakuzu and Hidan also seemed to have no idea where to find Naruto.

I thought that was funny. Itachi didn't lie-- he just didn't give them the whole truth. :D

for some reason remydat figured out what I meant-- that is to say I prefer pre-time-skip Naruto as a whole over post-time-skip. I've never been a big fan of Itachi-- he was a MacGuffin more than a real character, as Hazard said earlier-- and even when he -sorta- becomes a character he's still more of a plot-device than anything else.

as far as Itachi refusing to fight Jiraiya-- I thought he explicitly said "I might be able to beat him, but you don't stand a chance, Kisame." I figured that was narrative hyperbole. Itachi and Kisame would later prove formidable enough where I don't see how Itachi could beat both of them. I figured the main reason Itachi and Kisame left is because there was no way to abduct Naruto without having the entire village chasing them down.

[Hazard]

as far as Itachi refusing to fight Jiraiya-- I thought he explicitly said "I might be able to beat him, but you don't stand a chance, Kisame." I figured that was narrative hyperbole. Itachi and Kisame would later prove formidable enough where I don't see how Itachi could beat both of them. I figured the main reason Itachi and Kisame left is because there was no way to abduct Naruto without having the entire village chasing them down.

He said "We can fight him. We can even win. But even if both of us fought him there is still a chance we could lose."

Something along those lines I believe.

Back then I felt it was hyperbole. Now I look at it differently.

for some reason remydat figured out what I meant-- that is to say I prefer pre-time-skip Naruto as a whole over post-time-skip. I've never been a big fan of Itachi-- he was a MacGuffin more than a real character, as Hazard said earlier-- and even when he -sorta- becomes a character he's still more of a plot-device than anything else.

Itachi is kind of weird. It wouldn't call him a plot device... more like... a reflection of the ninja world I guess. Itachi is the pinnacle. He is what every ninja should want to be. He is the ideal given form. The final product. The Ninja.

Itachi is fucked up.

It's because of that, I like him as a character.

[Siriel]

Yeah, Itachi is a character. A character that acts as a demonstration, to show the problem.

Basically, he's (a part of) the answer to one of the driving question of the manga. Kind of like this:

"What's wrong about the ninja world?"

"Itachi can be considered a success and something to work toward becoming."

[remydat]

Itachi is kind of weird. It wouldn't call him a plot device... more like... a reflection of the ninja world I guess. Itachi is the pinnacle. He is what every ninja should want to be. He is the ideal given form. The final product. The Ninja.

Itachi is fucked up.

It's because of that, I like him as a character.

Agreed, he is a microcosm of the ninja world and a cautionary tale to boot. If you desire to be the perfect ninja in accordance with the rules of the ninja world where duty to your village and the mission is paramount then you might just end up having to murder your clan to preserve the peace of that village. His life and actions reflect the tragic extremes that the logic of the ninja world creates.

In many ways, he is what I imagine Kakashi would have become if he never met Obito. Due to what happened with his father, Kakashi was also molding himself into that perfect ninja who cherished the mission above all. Obito made Kakashi a better human when he made him a less perfect ninja which also coincidentally made it easier for Obito to reject this world. What good is this world when the best it has to offer punches a hole in the chest of the women he swore to protect and whom Obito loved? Thus, if/when it is revealed that Kakashi had a compelling reason for killing her, I suspect this combined with seeing his former idealistic self reflected in Naruto keeping the faith will be the impetus for his change of heart.

[Dark Soul # 7]

My main problem with Itachi, besides overall not liking him, is that nobody in the series seems to acknowledge that the guy was pretty fucked up and that what he's done is all-around stupid.

Either they busy praising him in one way or another or they just think that he's a nice guy.

The only person to point out that his grand scheme went south and is largely responsible for making Sasuke what he is today is Itachi himself and he kind just glossed it over.

"Whoops, my plan didn't work out and now Sasuke's a blood-thirsty lunatic. Sorry, my bad."

[remydat]

My main problem with Itachi, besides overall not liking him, is that nobody in the series seems to acknowledge that the guy was pretty fucked up and that what he's done is all-around stupid.

Either they busy praising him in one way or another or they just think that he's a nice guy.

The only person to point out that his grand scheme went south and is largely responsible for making Sasuke what he is today is Itachi himself and he kind just glossed it over.

"Whoops, my plan didn't work out and now Sasuke's a blood-thirsty lunatic. Sorry, my bad."

It wasn't his grand plan though. He basically had influential leaders of Konoha telling him kill your clan and we will let Sasuke live or refuse and the Uchiha including Sasuke will be killed in a Civil War that will also kill a lot of normal Konoha people not involved in the conflict. He did what the perfect ninja does when presented with a mission by his superiors. He did his job.

Not to mention if Itachi had refused Danzo's offer then the Uchiha's would have gone to war and Sasuke would be an enemy of Konoha anyway and given his age at the time said war would have occurred probably a pretty dead enemy. So Sasuke would be an enemy of Konoha whether Itachi acted or not. Itachi's actions simply ensured Sasuke lived long enough to learn how to defend himself. And frankly, Itachi's choice offered the only chance that Sasuke did not become an enemy of Konoha because if not for Tobi telling him, Sasuke would never have known that his clan was marked for death by Konoha and not by Itachi.

And Sasuke's position regarding Konoha is not that crazy. Genocide which is what effectively the leaders of Konoha committed using Itachi as their weapon is not something that one easily forgives. I think most people in Sasuke's position would want the government responsible for sanctioning such an act punished. It only moves into the blood thirsty lunatic category depending on how many innocent people he kills in the process.

If there is anything that is being glossed over it is the villainy involved in Konoha's leaders convincing a guy to murder his family for the sake of his brother. They didn't even have the decency to kill the Uchiha themselves. This after subjecting the Uchiha to discrimination based soley on the fact they are descended from the guy that lost a light to their first leader centuries ago. Konoha was on the brink of civil war in part because of that systematic discrimination that left the Uchiha feeling like second class citizens only kept around because of their powers. It is not much different than the Tokugawa Shogunate discriminating against the losers of the battle for Sekigahara and then before they could usher in the Meiji Restoration having one of those losers slaughter the rest of the losers.

[Hazard]

My main problem with Itachi, besides overall not liking him, is that nobody in the series seems to acknowledge that the guy was pretty fucked up and that what he's done is all-around stupid.

Either they busy praising him in one way or another or they just think that he's a nice guy.

The only person to point out that his grand scheme went south and is largely responsible for making Sasuke what he is today is Itachi himself and he kind just glossed it over.

"Whoops, my plan didn't work out and now Sasuke's a blood-thirsty lunatic. Sorry, my bad."

To be fair here do keep in my who speaks well of him.

Naruto is too much of a nice guy.

Sasuke worships his brother and decide to pin all the blame on Konoha.

Danzo is... Danzo. Frankly Danzo's glowing praise can be considered damning in multiple ways.


@remydat: Replace that Konoha leaders with Danzo, because it totally was Danzo. Sarutobi was trying to think of a peaceful resolution when Danzo went "all those poor children... like your brother..."

[remydat]

@remydat: Replace that Konoha leaders with Danzo, because it totally was Danzo. Sarutobi was trying to think of a peaceful resolution when Danzo went "all those poor children... like your brother..."

Again I haven't read it in a while but I thought Danzo was just the leader and representative of the faction within the Konoha government that had more militant views on how to deal with the Uchiha rather than just a lone wolf acting alone. Also, I thought the Sarutobi faction found out about the plan either before or after its execution but did nothing to really punish Danzo.

If Danzo was acting alone and to this day the rest of the Konoha leaders knew nothing about the plan until Danzo's death then I accept your point. If however, a government official however rogue he might be manipulated someone into committiing genocide and the government not only didn't punish him but allowed him to remain in power once they became aware of what he had done then they are complicit in his crimes. Especially from the perspective of the victim ie Sasuke.

[The Dog]

My main problem with Itachi, besides overall not liking him, is that nobody in the series seems to acknowledge that the guy was pretty fucked up and that what he's done is all-around stupid.

Either they busy praising him in one way or another or they just think that he's a nice guy.

The only person to point out that his grand scheme went south and is largely responsible for making Sasuke what he is today is Itachi himself and he kind just glossed it over.

"Whoops, my plan didn't work out and now Sasuke's a blood-thirsty lunatic. Sorry, my bad."

And instead of actually owning up to the fact he fucked up, he just planned to mindrape Sasuke MORE with Shuisui's Sharingan after his initial plan of 'torture and mindrape Sasuke so he hates me with every fiber of his being' went south.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Again I haven't read it in a while but I thought Danzo was just the leader and representative of the faction within the Konoha government that had more militant views on how to deal with the Uchiha rather than just a lone wolf acting alone. Also, I thought the Sarutobi faction found out about the plan either before or after its execution but did nothing to really punish Danzo.

If Danzo was acting alone and to this day the rest of the Konoha leaders knew nothing about the plan until Danzo's death then I accept your point. If however, a government official however rogue he might be manipulated someone into committiing genocide and the government not only didn't punish him but allowed him to remain in power once they became aware of what he had done then they are complicit in his crimes. Especially from the perspective of the victim ie Sasuke.

IIRC Sarutobi was against the whole killing the entire clan thing and wanted to continue negotiating things but the other high-ups, those two old people and Danzou, were too afraid of the Uchiha and a possible civil war so they went ahead with the killing the entire clan and then have the guy that did it for them exiled as a villain. Because they couldn't possibly have any other option after the clan was killed. Itachi totally had to be exiled. They couldn't pin it on anybody else.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, it's be a while since I read that part too, but didn't the elders also include Sasuke in the hit-list? But he was the one person that Itachi refused to kill so Itachi left him alone and threatened the elders to not do anything to harm him.

As for Itachi's grand scheme and stuff relating to it. He was indeed ordered to kill his clan, that was a job (though the option for peaceful negotiations were there, Itachi just decided to go with the mass-murdering option) and whatever moral quandries it has is more or less a different discussion. What I'm thinking about is what he did afterwards.

Itachi's great plan for Sasuke was to put him through a living hell fuelled by a hate-filled lust for revenge in a way that drove him away from friends and anything resembling a normal life so that they could have a mock battle that nobody saw and then just brainwash his ass, because fuck it the plan was stupid anyway. This is not mentioning how the plan could've fallen a part any number of times (pretty much did at the end as well) or how it's largely because of this that Sasuke is insane now or how he could've orchestrated something that might've led Sasuke to a happier life. And like Dog mentioned, there were so much mind-rapage. Just in case Sasuke forgot to HATE!

Itachi's plan sucked.

[Robotech Master]

And instead of actually owning up to the fact he fucked up, he just planned to mindrape Sasuke MORE with Shuisui's Sharingan after his initial plan of 'torture and mindrape Sasuke so he hates me with every fiber of his being' went south.

Correction: Mindraping him more with the Shisui Sharingan was part of his initial fucked up plan--specifically the fallback for it. As an Edo, he did own up to him fucking up and included the Shisui ploy as part of his fail. He entrusted everything to Naruto at that point and pretty much had nothing good to say about his original plan.

[Hazard]

Again I haven't read it in a while but I thought Danzo was just the leader and representative of the faction within the Konoha government that had more militant views on how to deal with the Uchiha rather than just a lone wolf acting alone. Also, I thought the Sarutobi faction found out about the plan either before or after its execution but did nothing to really punish Danzo.

If Danzo was acting alone and to this day the rest of the Konoha leaders knew nothing about the plan until Danzo's death then I accept your point. If however, a government official however rogue he might be manipulated someone into committiing genocide and the government not only didn't punish him but allowed him to remain in power once they became aware of what he had done then they are complicit in his crimes. Especially from the perspective of the victim ie Sasuke.

Oh Danzo is never alone, however it is canon he went behind Sarutobi's back for it. Hence why Itachi asked Sarutobi to protect Sasuke after he had done the deed.

The reason why Danzo is not punished for the crap he does is up for the debate (because it is canon he goes around doing evil stuff behind everyone's back). Reasons range from 'Sarutobi is a big softie' to 'Danzo knows too much crap, is fairly strong and has an army of ninja that would side with him so punishing him is a giant pain in the ass.'

[remydat]

IIRC Sarutobi was against the whole killing the entire clan thing and wanted to continue negotiating things but the other high-ups, those two old people and Danzou, were too afraid of the Uchiha and a possible civil war so they went ahead with the killing the entire clan and then have the guy that did it for them exiled as a villain. Because they couldn't possibly have any other option after the clan was killed. Itachi totally had to be exiled. They couldn't pin it on anybody else.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, it's be a while since I read that part too, but didn't the elders also include Sasuke in the hit-list? But he was the one person that Itachi refused to kill so Itachi left him alone and threatened the elders to not do anything to harm him.

As for Itachi's grand scheme and stuff relating to it. He was indeed ordered to kill his clan, that was a job (though the option for peaceful negotiations were there, Itachi just decided to go with the mass-murdering option) and whatever moral quandries it has is more or less a different discussion. What I'm thinking about is what he did afterwards.

Itachi's great plan for Sasuke was to put him through a living hell fuelled by a hate-filled lust for revenge in a way that drove him away from friends and anything resembling a normal life so that they could have a mock battle that nobody saw and then just brainwash his ass, because fuck it the plan was stupid anyway. This is not mentioning how the plan could've fallen a part any number of times (pretty much did at the end as well) or how it's largely because of this that Sasuke is insane now or how he could've orchestrated something that might've led Sasuke to a happier life. And like Dog mentioned, there were so much mind-rapage. Just in case Sasuke forgot to HATE!

Itachi's plan sucked.

Yes the plan sucked, I am asking what was the alternative? As you said, the powers that be seemed to be leaning towards killing the whole clan including Sasuke. Sarutobi was either completely oblivious to the plan or while opposing it didn't really seem to do much to stop Danzo and the gang. In fact was Danzo or any of those who supported the plan punished by Sarutobi afterward? So was the peaceful option really even an option if the guy proposing it seemed completely ineffectual in preventing Danzo and the gang from getting their way. A fact that Itachi being in the Anbu is likely fully aware of?

So again, I will ask what choice realistically does the soldier have when his superiors tell him to kill? If he told them no, do you really think Sarutobi's solution would have won out? Unlikely, all that would have happened is Danzo and company would have tried to exterminate the Uchiha including Sasuke and the Civil War would ensue. Itachi came to that grim realisation.

And again, if Itachi had refused Sasuke would still have gone down a dark path. He would be a kid who can't defend himself in a war where Konoha considered him the enemy. Itachi's plan offered the only chance for him to live peaceably in Konoha by making Sasuke hate him to cover up the fact that Konoha was the real enemy.

So by all means, tell me what his alternative was that makes sense within the context of the scenario Kishi set up?

[remydat]

Oh Danzo is never alone, however it is canon he went behind Sarutobi's back for it. Hence why Itachi asked Sarutobi to protect Sasuke after he had done the deed.

The reason why Danzo is not punished for the crap he does is up for the debate (because it is canon he goes around doing evil stuff behind everyone's back). Reasons range from 'Sarutobi is a big softie' to 'Danzo knows too much crap, is fairly strong and has an army of ninja that would side with him so punishing him is a giant pain in the ass.'

Yeah that is my point though. Whatever the reason, Itachi is a part of Anbu. He knows how Danzo is and he knows that for whatever reason the dude is allowed to get his way. So I think expecting Itachi to trust that Sarutobi could have prevented Danzo from getting what he wanted is a stretch. The fact that Sarutobi found out about the plan after the fact from Itachi and did absolutely nothing to the guy who sanctioned genocide is proof of that IMO.