Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[remydat]

Oh right, there is also this.

You seem to think it is valid.

No, it pretty much is not valid at this point, barring some really bad writing.

Not quite at the Sakura is hair spitted on by the Shodai but close.

Is bad writing impossible espeically from a guy who has written the Uchiha and Madara in particular as being these god-like bad asses responsible for every major plot point in the book? I think it is possible but not probable.

[Hazard]

I don't think I expect you to keep quiet. I expect that when someone says to you hey look, I get and understand what you are saying but it won't change what I believe that the sensible response is to just say well let's agree to disagree on that point and let's move on. This is why I gave you the example of the scientist and the believer. The believer who understands and accepts the scientists point that God cannot be proven and that his faith may be illogical but still chooses to believe has given as much ground as he is willing to give. So why the need to continue to push him instead of just accepting that?

I like discussing things as I said.

Your thought process also provides some extra amusement to the whole thing as well, and I am perfectly willing to play my part in this as I get something out of it for minimum work.

That said, you also seem to be under the impression you are in a subjective matter.

Is bad writing impossible espeically from a guy who has written the Uchiha and Madara in particular as being this god-like bad asses responsible for every major plot point in the book? I think it is possible but not probable.

This implies you think the example you have given is bad writing.

It is not.

You may not like it, but is not in fact bad writing.

This is not really a subjective matter by the way.

[remydat]

I like discussing things as I said.

Your thought process also provides some extra amusement to the whole thing as well, and I am perfectly willing to play my part in this as I get something out of it for minimum work.

That said, you also seem to be under the impression you are in a subjective matter.

This implies you think the example you have given is bad writing.

It is not.

You may not like it, but is not in fact bad writing.

This is not really a subjective matter by the way.

Ah but it is more than that isn't it. I get the sense that you are not satisifed unless you can convince someone to believe what you believe.

What constitues bad writing is subjective. However, I used that example to illustrate a bias that in my opinion can lead to bad writing and not to suggest it is bad writing in and of itself. Again, when a writer says all characters have weaknesses but in the next breath says Madara Uchiha has no weaknesses it indicates a potential bias that may end up bleeding into his writing. E.g. Nagato the big bad ass leader of Akatsuki is eventually revealed as nothing more than a pawn of Uchiha Madara right down to his eyes not being his own.

Creating Mary Sue or in this context Gary Sue characters to some is also bad writing and I don't think it is a stretch to say Madara is dangerously close to being a Gary Stu if he is not one already. Point is bad writing is very subjective. Anyways, time to go check out the bar scene. Will probably be back on making druken posts around 3am, lol.

[The Transient Guest]

I would argue it is rude and self-centered when someone says you are probably right for you to continue to belabor the point instead of simply accepting my concession and moving on.

Yeah, it drives me up a wall when someone is wrong. I'm a teacher, I like to think a fun one I act in class how I do on these forums, and when one of my students just can't get a word right. Well backing up I'm English as a Second Language chiefly and when someone I'm working with just can't get a word right.....sphere....Sue-fah-hear.....that young lady was cute but she butchered sphere. No matter how far into her education we got I kept on going back to sphere.
I hadn't fixed it. I had to fix it.

Same thing here.

And I don't think I was talking to you at all about the mechanics. You interjected yourself into the conversation and when I said I don't care continued to discuss the mechanics that I admitted to another poster not you that I did not care about, lol.

Interjecting yourself into a conversation is how the magic happens. I like walking up just as some name has been mentioned and speak up with a nice "Oh that guy / girl? (S)he's cool.....when (s)he's sober."

And I never stated my opinion is not valid. I said it could very well be wrong. There is a difference. And again, you missed the part where I said to you I am not interested in the original opinion so much as your continuing to discuss it after I accepted your criticism as valid. So I have made no illusions about where my interests lie.

Well, you said you didn't care. If someone cares then there's an implied degree of effort and thus validity to their actions.

And yes I like to have the last word especially when I concede the validity of someone's argument and instead of them accepting it and moving on they decide to continue the discussion.

Haz really did drop it when i asked him to, we started in on a new line of discussion that was about to actually point out how I am reading the manga incorrectly now.

If you had run with that instead of making sure we were aware that you still felt correct despite our efforts then right now I'd be on the defensive about fine tooth combing the manga.

And that would have been fun.

So I am not talking to you because you talk back. I am talking to you because you talk back by discussing stuff I already conceded to you. I just want to see how long you will continue to do so.

Hey now, if you had been paying attention then all of my involvement should not only have been expected

Do...do I jump in on this?

It wouldn't be you if you didn't.

it should have been understood.

That and a slim hope that one of these sides might just be able to convince the other of the validity of their views.

Oh, you and your crazy ideas.

[remydat]

Yeah, it drives me up a wall when someone is wrong. I'm a teacher, I like to think a fun one I act in class how I do on these forums, and when one of my students just can't get a word right. Well backing up I'm English as a Second Language chiefly and when someone I'm working with just can't get a word right.....sphere....Sue-fah-hear.....that young lady was cute but she butchered sphere. No matter how far into her education we got I kept on going back to sphere.
I hadn't fixed it. I had to fix it.

Same thing here.

Except I am not wrong yet which is why your example doesn't fit. There are recognized ways to pronounce words and Noah Webster isn't around to decide tomorrow that he wants a word to be pronounced differently now. In a fictional world written by a writer with a hard on for a particular group of people there is always the chance that he will change his narrative to make that group of people seem more awesome. I would hope an English Teacher would understand that nuance however implausible he finds it. I am not wrong until we see how Madara is defeated.

Interjecting yourself into a conversation is how the magic happens. I like walking up just as some name has been mentioned and speak up with a nice "Oh that guy / girl? (S)he's cool.....when (s)he's sober."

I don't disagree. I was merely correcting your misleading statement. You said, Quit talking about the actual mechanics with those of us that do if you do not. I pointed out that I was not talking actual mechanics with you but that you interjected yourself in the conversation. That is perfectly fine but again I would expect an English Teacher to understand the distinction between my talking about something with you directly versus you deciding to interject yourself into a conversation and respond to a post that was not actually addressed to you.

Haz really did drop it when i asked him to, we started in on a new line of discussion that was about to actually point out how I am reading the manga incorrectly now.

If you had run with that instead of making sure we were aware that you still felt correct despite our efforts then right now I'd be on the defensive about fine tooth combing the manga.

And that would have been fun.

Why would I run with something I have no interest in? And I feel correct in the same way a person who buys a lotto ticket feels correct. They are most likely going to be wrong but will be happy if they end up being right. This is what you seem to not get. I understand completely your position and why you feel the way you do. And your position is more plausible and probable. However, people believe things sometimes despite the odds. I suppose the concept of probability is more a mathematical concept so perhaps since you are an English teacher you are incapable of grasping that, lol.

Hey now, if you had been paying attention then all of my involvement should not only have been expected

it should have been understood.

Oh I had a hunch at what was coming. I saw how you guys operate especially after your recent debates with flashdrive regarding Obito. In that debate there was at least still some fundmental disagreement between both sides so I chalked up the inability to simply agree to disagree to neither side wanting to give ground. However, now I see that even when the person concedes and agrees with you regarding your criticisms, you guys still feel the need to try and convert them. I suppose it is good this fanatical desire to convert the unbelievers is taking place in the 21st century on a message board rather than in the 14 century in Catholic Europe.

[Nik Hasta]

What the fu-?!

I leave this thread alone for five minutes and this is what I get?

[Hazard]

Ah but it is more than that isn't it. I get the sense that you are not satisifed unless you can convince someone to believe what you believe.

Not really.

What constitues bad writing is subjective.

No. One's tastes in writing are subjective. Bad writing really isn't.

Creating Mary Sue or in this context Gary Sue characters to some is also bad writing and I don't think it is a stretch to say Madara is dangerously close to being a Gary Stu if he is not one already.

This shows me you do not understand what a Sue is.

Point is bad writing is very subjective.

Again wrong.

What the fu-?!

I leave this thread alone for five minutes and this is what I get?

You should totally know better than to leave for five minutes now.

[The Transient Guest]

I don't disagree. I was merely correcting your misleading statement. You said, Quit talking about the actual mechanics with those of us that do if you do not. I pointed out that I was not talking actual mechanics with you but that you interjected yourself in the conversation. That is perfectly fine but again I would expect an English Teacher to understand the distinction between my talking about something with you directly versus you deciding to interject yourself into a conversation and respond to a post that was not actually addressed to you.

This is, pay attention this is the important part, an open forum. Wait for it. An open forum for discussion.

As soon as I hauled my pretty ass into the conversation it changed from a conversation between one guy with an opinion and another guy with a different opinion into two guys with the same opinion and one guy with a different one. Conversation and interaction is fluid, if someone walked up to you mid talk and you completely and totally ignored that person, up to and including call him rude for joining in on a subject he finds interesting then....that's kinda weird.

What the fu-?!

I leave this thread alone for five minutes and this is what I get?

Hey, I tried to switch it up but Mr. Finalword needed final word.

What do you think about the illusion / reality hypothesis we worked out?

[Hazard]

Hey, I tried to switch it up but Mr. Finalword needed final word.

By the way, if it is annoying you or other people at the forum at this point, I will drop it. Amusing as it may be.

[Kamina]

-Player:Kamina skips over 3 pages "Who the hell do you think I am?"-

Yes, the plan was to resurrect old-man Madara via Pain's revival jutsu.

The current healthy, immortal, better-than-his-prime Madara is quite a bit better than what they were planning.

Seriously, Obito basically won the lottery when Kabuto decided to ally with him.

He wouldn't have needed to ask how to dispel it if that was the case. He could have just let it be and then used that if it was needed.

Their whole plan was 'bunk' if Kabuto A) paid attention and controlled Madara, or B) if Madara didn't know the release code when the Edos disappeared, right?

Of course I can end up being completely wrong but considering how Madara and Obito have been depicted, I am not accepting at face value the coincidence of them running into Kabuto.

Until recently, there was no definitive proof that Madara had a connection with Nagato nor that the Rinnegan was in fact Madara's eyes so it is not beyond the realm to think they played Kabuto.

but my bet is still on Obito somehow giving Naruto and gang information to defeat Madara.

You're arguing that Madara and Tobi deceived Kabuto because you think it's unlikely that Madara or Tobi would have prior connections to Nagato, but they did anyway?

So oppositely, everyone else is arguing that Obito got lucky because Kabuto's threat fit well into this plan of reviving Madara and the Juubi?

Then this devolved into semantics?

Kabuto's ultimately been played here. That's obvious. Kishimoto turned that situation on it's head. It's either a bad retcon, or a damn hilarious twist. Maybe that's all that matters. Kabuto got screwed in the end, left in a coma, and the adults are in control now.

[Hazard]

-Player:Kamina skips over 3 pages "Who the hell do you think I am?"-

Now I kind of want to see a fighting game where Kamina can enter at any moment in a fight between two players while saying that.

[remydat]

Not really.

No. One's tastes in writing are subjective. Bad writing really isn't.

This shows me you do not understand what a Sue is.

Again wrong.

You should totally know better than to leave for five minutes now.

See this is the part where I say agree to disagree because we are at an impasse.

[remydat]

This is, pay attention this is the important part, an open forum. Wait for it. An open forum for discussion.

As soon as I hauled my pretty ass into the conversation it changed from a conversation between one guy with an opinion and another guy with a different opinion into two guys with the same opinion and one guy with a different one. Conversation and interaction is fluid, if someone walked up to you mid talk and you completely and totally ignored that person, up to and including call him rude for joining in on a subject he finds interesting then....that's kinda weird.

Please find where I called you rude for joining the discussion? The only time I used that word that I can recall was in post 2819 and if you read that post I only used it tongue in check as I took the words you used to describe me (self-centered and rude) and threw them back at you. In any event I said it is self-centered and rude to continue to discuss something when someone has conceded the argument which is not the same as your claim here. Again, I would expect an English Teacher to understand that difference, lol. The issue was never you joining the dicussion. The issue was after I have already agreed with your crticisms of my position, you continuing to go on about it in a fanatical attempt to sway me to you side.

As for it being an open forum, yes I understand that but that does not mean I should let your misleading use of the English language slide. Once again, you said Quit talking about the actual mechanics with those of us that do if you do not. That statement is misleading. I posted on a thread and you choose to respond. You are well within your right to do so but again, I expect an English teacher when making statements to use language that more appropriately reflects what happened. I made a statement, you challenged that statement, I agreed with much of that challenge but simply said I will continue to believe what I want, you being incapable of accepting that by your own admission continued to try and convert me like your English student.

Hey, I tried to switch it up but Mr. Finalword needed final word.

What do you think about the illusion / reality hypothesis we worked out?

I don't think I have a mutant power that forces you to respond to my posts. If you didn't like to have the final word then you could have ended the discussion long ago. In fact, when someone agrees with all of your criticisms of their position but simply maintains their own belief, someone who doesn't like to have the final word would have accepted that their position was acknowledged and moved on. Your inability to do so means that moniker of Mr. Finalword is befitting of you.

[remydat]

[B]You're arguing that Madara and Tobi deceived Kabuto because you think it's unlikely that Madara or Tobi would have prior connections to Nagato, but they did anyway?

So oppositely, everyone else is arguing that Obito got lucky because Kabuto's threat fit well into this plan of reviving Madara and the Juubi?

Then this devolved into semantics?

Kabuto's ultimately been played here. That's obvious. Kishimoto turned that situation on it's head. It's either a bad retcon, or a damn hilarious twist. Maybe that's all that matters. Kabuto got screwed in the end, left in a coma, and the adults are in control now.

I am aruging it is a possibility however unlikely that possibility is. It devolved because Hazard and TG don't seem to understand the difference between someone choosing to believe an unlikely possibility versus someone being factually inaccurate. We won't know the latter until we actually see how Madara is defeated.

As for why I choose to believe in that possibility. I see Obito heading down the same path to evenutal redemption as Nagato. Kishi's also has a penchant for turning previous developments on it's head to the ultimate benefit of Madara's awesomeness. He did it with Nagato and the 5 Kages.

As for the Edo Tensei itself, it seems awfully convenient that Madara knew enough about the Edo Tensei to dispel it? Shouldn't he have also known how to invoke it then? And if he did then why would he not have told Obito? As it stands now his Edo Tensei body sure seems like a better body than whatever he was going to get under the original plan. And even if he preferred that original planned body for some reason, you would expect him to let Obito know how to use the Edo Tensei if only as a contingency plan in case the first plan failed. Instead, Kabuto just coincidentally stumbles into the picture and knows this super awesome technique that Obito is oblivious too but that Madara knows well enough to dispel it thereby making him into the God he is now?

Yeah like I said, I may be proven to be completely wrong but I am not buying it. I reserve the right to believe my unlikely possibility until such time that Kishi not Hazard and TG prove me wrong by showing it in the comic.

[Siriel]

Their whole plan was 'bunk' if Kabuto A) paid attention and controlled Madara, or B) if Madara didn't know the release code when the Edos disappeared, right?

Not quite. Well, maybe for point A, but had Madara not known the release code, Tobi could have raised him with the revival jutsu as was originally planned.