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  1. #2776
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    So writers don't routinely write things early on in a book only to reveal that what was originally said was in fact not the entire truth? Kishi wanted to reveal how Edo Tensei works at that point in the story. The way to do that without giving away that Kabuto is being played is by having Tobi feign ignorance and ask him how it works. It is not that complicated for a writer to pull off and again it happens all the time in books and movies. And there is no point in revealing that Kabuto is being played until it actually has a major impact which would be the case if Obito is inspired by Naruto to believe again much like Naruto did to Nagato and then at that point reveals oh by the way, here is how you can defeat Madara. This is a writer who had Nagato kill a whole village and then was like oh hey I am good now so let me resurrect all these people before I die so yeah I am not putting anything past him.

    It is perfectly fine if you disagree but I don't see the point of continuing to point out it is speculation when I have already admitted as much.
    Like I said, there is speculation and there is 'he's totally lying even though we have been shown his thoughts and there is no hint of my theory he's totally lying. Lying, I say'.

  2. #2777
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Like I said, there is speculation and there is 'he's totally lying even though we have been shown his thoughts and there is no hint of my theory he's totally lying. Lying, I say'.
    I guess I missed the memo that characters never deceive other chatacters. And yes you have stated your point and my position remains unchanged so are you going to repeat the same lament over and over. Didn't realise there wad speculation police in this thread.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  3. #2778
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    I so want to make a reading comprehension joke here :)

    I will hold it back lest it be misread though.

  4. #2779
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I mean, there is speculation and there is outright ignoring what the manga says.

    Though it's not like the later is that new.
    Do...do I jump in on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Hell, Tobi didn't even seem to really want to ally with Kabuto. Kabuto had to basically force him into it by revealing Madara.
    WRONG. See.

    Tobi really did want Kabuto on his team but he knew that if Kabuto knew that he knew that he wanted him on his team then he would have moral control in their relationship so he had to play possum and trick Kabuto into thinking he really didn't want him around.

    This is all totally contrary to what has been shown, implied, written, and printed but I prefer to think of it my way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Like I said, there is speculation and there is 'he's totally lying even though we have been shown his thoughts and there is no hint of my theory he's totally lying. Lying, I say'.
    Worked for Kubo via Aizen. Well, it worked to fool the readers into thinking something was going on that wasn't. And from what I remember wasn't exactly welcomed either since it showed us Aizen thoughts coming from not Aizen people. And that's stupid.



    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I don't read every chapter religiously but do we know how Kabuto came to have Madara's body? You would think Obito would be keeping a close eye on it.
    Well I would think that someone basing their entire outlook on the manga in conjecture would read a little closer. I mean....conjecture is supposed to at least a slightly educated guess.
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  5. #2780
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I guess I missed the memo that characters never deceive other chatacters.
    Yup....good thing we have had inner thoughts and monologues that state the entire opposite of what you are saying. And the shown stuff doesn't count because the characters were thinking that stuff in case at that particular moment a mind reader ninja was within range and targeting them.

    Shit, I'm starting to convince myself of your side despite the fact that everything shown is contrary.

    And yes you have stated your point and my position remains unchanged so are you going to repeat the same lament over and over. Didn't realise there wad speculation police in this thread.
    If you didn't realize that then the manga isn't the only thing you aren't reading at a full attention levels.

    And if you want to know, it's not speculation police. It's stupid speculation police.

    Tell you what, you give me one fact that isn't "my gut says so" and I'll actively support your side.
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  6. #2781
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I so want to make a reading comprehension joke here :)

    I will hold it back lest it be misread though.
    It has nothing to do with reading comprehension. You seem to want to pick a fight when there is no fight to pick. You said I was speculating. I agree. You said I am basically saying the characters are lying. I agree.

    Let me ask a simple question. What do you hope to gain by continuing to comment on things that I have already agreed with you on?
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  7. #2782
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Do...do I jump in on this?
    It wouldn't be you if you didn't.

    WRONG. See.

    Tobi really did want Kabuto on his team but he knew that if Kabuto knew that he knew that he wanted him on his team then he would have moral control in their relationship so he had to play possum and trick Kabuto into thinking he really didn't want him around.

    This is all totally contrary to what has been shown, implied, written, and printed but I prefer to think of it my way.
    Of course, how could I have missed it.

  8. #2783
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Well I would think that someone basing their entire outlook on the manga in conjecture would read a little closer. I mean....conjecture is supposed to at least a slightly educated guess.
    Where have I based my entire outlook on the manga on conjecture? I simply speculated that Obito will end up siding with Naruto and revealing a way to defeat Madara. I based it on what happened to Nagato. There is no requirement for a hunch to be based on an educated guess except in your head. Nor does it really matter to me whether I am right or wrong. It was just a random thought that I had after reading the chapter and I decided to post it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Yup....good thing we have had inner thoughts and monologues that state the entire opposite of what you are saying. And the shown stuff doesn't count because the characters were thinking that stuff in case at that particular moment a mind reader ninja was within range and targeting them.

    Shit, I'm starting to convince myself of your side despite the fact that everything shown is contrary.
    Good thing I have already admitted that what is shown is the opposite of what I am saying. Again, you guys seem to be trying to pick a fight for no reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    If you didn't realize that then the manga isn't the only thing you aren't reading at a full attention levels.

    And if you want to know, it's not speculation police. It's stupid speculation police.

    Tell you what, you give me one fact that isn't "my gut says so" and I'll actively support your side.
    I am not asking you to actively support my side. I don't care or want you to believe me. I was simply stating my opinion which I admitted was speculation contrary to what was written. In fact, I will agree it is stupid speculation. So now that I have, are you still going to go on and on about it?

    If a person walks up to me on the street and asks if they can have some change to get something to eat, I decide whether I believe they really are going to spend it on food or whether they are lying and want to buy alcohol and/or drugs. I have no support for that decision beyond my hunch and I don't sit there and interrogate them to get more support because the decision is not that important to me. I take one look and I decide to give them money or walk away.

    That is the equivalent of my opinion here. You guys seem to think that because you are so invested in your opinions that you debate plot points ad naseum that everyone else who posts here must as well. In fact, I am more interested in you and Hazard's peculiar desire to continue to argue something I have already conceded than I am about the actual topic that spurred your desire hence why I continue to respond to you guys.
    Last edited by remydat; 11-30-2012 at 06:07 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  9. #2784
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Meh, don't misunderstand things.

    Tobi will betray Madara after seeing the light and whatever.

    Cool. Decent Speculation. Could even be interesting if it happened.


    Tobi knows about Edo Tensei and was lying about not wanting Kabuto at his side even though his actions and thoughts shows otherwise... that's the part where I raise my eyebrow, scratch my head, and say you're wrong.

  10. #2785
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Tobi knows about Edo Tensei and was lying about not wanting Kabuto at his side even though his actions and thoughts shows otherwise... that's the part where I raise my eyebrow, scratch my head, and say you're wrong.
    And that is the part where if you go back to my posts with Siriel I said and I quote Of course I can end up being completely wrong but . . .

    I never suggested my opinion was a slam dunk and have acknoledged it could be completely wrong. Hazard, I agree with you in that I am most likely wrong but that doesn't change the fact that my guess is my guess. So again, what exactly are you trying to achieve here?
    Last edited by remydat; 11-30-2012 at 06:28 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  11. #2786
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    And that is the part where if you go back to my posts with Siriel I said and I quote Of course I can end up being completely wrong but . . . I never suggested my opinion was a slam dunk nor did I even vigorously defend it being right. Hazard, I agree with you that I am most likely wrong but that doesn't change the fact that my guess is my guess. So again, what exactly are you trying to achieve here?
    I am not sure if you notice but this is an discussion forum.

    Basically, you say something and one can agree, disagree or whatever.

    So if you tell me the sky is green I am going to tell you it is really blue.

  12. #2787
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    I am not sure if you notice but this is an discussion forum.

    Basically, you say something and one can agree, disagree or whatever.

    So if you tell me the sky is green I am going to tell you it is really blue.
    That is not a great example because the sky being blue is more fact than opinion. But let's run with it anyways. If I tell you that hey I could be completely wrong that the sky is green and you are probably right that it is really blue, what is the point in continuing to discuss it? You are not going to change my opinion and I already conceded the validity of your opinion. So what more do you want? At what point do you realise that there really is nothing more to discuss?
    It's hard for me to listen to people not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

    "Let me go first Lorna. I'm their freaking King!"

  13. #2788
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    That is not a great example because the sky being blue is more fact than opinion. But let's run with it anyways. If I tell you that hey I could be completely wrong that the sky is green and you are probably right that it is really blue, what is the point in continuing to discuss it? You are not going to change my opinion and I already conceded the validity of your opinion. So what more do you want? At what point do you realise that there really is nothing more to discuss?
    Meh, we seem to have a failure to communicate here.

    Alright, fine I'll try to explain.

    I used that example for a reason.

    See the broad strokes of your theory (Tobi betrays Madara) can in fact be counter as speculation. It is perfectly valid speculation in fact.

    The little stuff (edo-tensei, lying, the other stuff) on the other hand cannot, because you have to blatantly go against the manga for it to work. So basically even if you were to try to hide it under the umbrella of 'opinion' it would not change the fact that it is factually wrong (and in this case it were right it would be bad writing like the Bleach example given some posts above).

    Hopefully, you will understand my words this time.

    The again, you also seem to be under the impression I am trying to pick a fight with you.

    I'm not. Honest. I'm merely telling you, you are wrong. It costs me little, and really this discussions are part of the charm (more like reason really) of an internet forum. It would be silly to declare an opinion and not expect feedback of any kind.

  14. #2789
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Where have I based my entire outlook on the manga on conjecture? I simply speculated that Obito will end up siding with Naruto and revealing a way to defeat Madara. I based it on what happened to Nagato. There is no requirement for a hunch to be based on an educated guess except in your head. Nor does it really matter to me whether I am right or wrong. It was just a random thought that I had after reading the chapter and I decided to post it.
    Well....that's...umm.....Hm.

    You want to share your opinion, based off nothing more than what you have in your head, but you don't want to be responded to? If it doesn't matter to you whether you are right or not, a claim not backed up by your continued responses to our discussion, then you simply wanted to share your opinion.
    Now I'll be the first to apologize for twisting your arm and making you respond. That was rude on my part. I do hope that you will still post random thoughts because I love random thoughts.
    Good thing I have already admitted that what is shown is the opposite of what I am saying. Again, you guys seem to be trying to pick a fight for no reason.
    Now I'm going to point out that the only thing you've done dumber than think the exact opposite of everything shown by the manga is coming to a discussion board and then claiming umbrage when we discuss your points on the discussion forum.
    It's like going to a Mcdonalds, ordering a salad, then being angry at all the meat eaters for eating meat. At a meat eating store.
    I am not asking you to actively support my side. I don't care or want you to believe me. I was simply stating my opinion which I admitted was speculation contrary to what was written.
    Aw, I would have had fun trying to find hints and traces to support our side. Anyone can support something they believe in, you have to be legit to support something you don't. But I'm starting to get the idea that you don't care either.
    In fact, I will agree it is stupid speculation. So now that I have, are you still going to go on and on about it?
    Wrong person to ask, I'll argue whether the sky is blue. And it's not. At night.

    If a person walks up to me on the street and asks if they can have some change to get something to eat, I decide whether I believe they really are going to spend it on food or whether they are lying and want to buy alcohol and/or drugs. I have no support for that decision beyond my hunch and I don't sit there and interrogate them to get more support because the decision is not that important to me. I take one look and I decide to give them money or walk away.
    Well Socrates would state that the uncontemplated life is not worth living but I'm not gonna argue how you spend your time on the street. Unless you want to, then I will.
    I will however say if you had video of the vagrant spending his panhandled money on food, that you had eye witness testimony stating that despite his destitute status he doesn't drown his sorrows, and you were able to even mysteriously read his thought bubbles that say "man I want to get an order of chicken nuggets." If you had all that and your response was "THIS BITCH IS GONNA GET SOME JIM BEAM" then....I would wonder how you came to that decision because that is not the street I would take.

    I love finding out how people come to their thoughts and I pick them apart finding that out. If you don't want to be examined then don't put yourself out there where I can prod.

    That is the equivalent of my opinion here
    Well I hope you would find that with the set up I mentioned up there that your hypothetical opinion becomes so stupid that you want to find out who and how someone came to that.

    You guys seem to think that because you are so invested in your opinions that you debate plot points ad naseum that everyone else who posts here must as well.
    A guy outside, he was arguing that he was really inside.
    That despite the fact that he looks like he was standing outside that in the past, such as the Truman Show, people have actually been inside while outside.
    In Bleach the Las Nachos had a sky inside, so there's another basis in fiction and stories for that to be possible.

    ^ that guy. He comes across as crazy. He comes across as someone that has thoughts and opinions that are wrong.

    You are that guy.

    And that makes you interesting. And interesting things get talked about.

    In fact, I am more interested in you and Hazard's peculiar desire to continue to argue something I have already conceded than I am about the actual topic that spurred your desire hence why I continue to respond to you guys.
    Where people talk, there will be a transient guest there to poke a sentence in. And where discussion occurs you have to hazard the dangers of interaction to reach out to others.

    I"ll admit your whole "DAMNIT I'M WRONG" stance is fun. It gives you a preemptive response to anything we find wrong, can prove wrong, because you can just bring up the fact that you were wrong from the get go.
    Well shit man, if you know you are wrong. If you don't care if anyone finds you right or wrong. If you never cared in the first got damn place why did you say it????
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

  15. #2790
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    I LOVE IT.
    We actually took my hypothetical sky argument and went with it while I was making my essay.
    Last edited by The Transient Guest; 11-30-2012 at 06:58 PM.
    Siriel:
    Transient just likes to do that.

    Why he keeps picking up ridiculous arguments and then try to defend them, I will never know.

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