Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Dog]

...so bright orange jacket with swirly pattern on the shoulder is less expensive than drab, dark-patterned shirt and pants? XD

When people overcharge for the 'drab', dark-patterned shirt and pants? Yep.

[Siriel]

Probably late to the aprty, but throwing my chips on the "Sage of the Six Paths" making a reappearance. His death's covered in shadow, Orochimaru/Sasuke are looking for the "person who knows all" and who better for that position than the person who "invented ninjutsu/genjutsu, slew "Cthulu", and passed on his legacy that everyone's been trying to interpret to gain his power?".

The answers that Sasuke is looking for are regarding personal problems he has. All the elements that his issues came from happened long after the Sage was dead. It would make no real sense for him to want to talk to him about them.

[Hazard]

So for anyone interested, as I actually have some time these days I may update my Naruto speed soon. There have definitely been a few good ones as of late.

The answers that Sasuke is looking for are regarding personal problems he has. All the elements that his issues came from happened long after the Sage was dead. It would make no real sense for him to want to talk to him about them.

"Great, great, great..., great grandfather, this is all your fault!"

Also, taking on bets:

1) Juubi is defeated. Evil loses. Good triumphs.

2) Moon Eye Plan goes as planned.

3) Juubi breaks free from Tobi and Madara's control

[The Dog]

Also, taking on bets:

1) Juubi is defeated. Evil loses. Good triumphs.

Obviously this happens, considering the general tone of the manga and the story thus far.

2) Moon Eye Plan goes as planned.

Nope. It may or may not be activated, but even if it does, a spanner in the works causes it to fail.

3) Juubi breaks free from Tobi and Madara's control

I say... No. The Juubi is powerful, yes, but Madara is so utterly broken that I doubt any bijuu, even the Juubi, can best him.

[The Once And Forever]

Also, taking on bets:

1) Juubi is defeated. Evil loses. Good triumphs.

2) Moon Eye Plan goes as planned.

3) Juubi breaks free from Tobi and Madara's control

Yes.

2, 3, 1.

[Kamina]

He's with Sasuke now. He doesn't need to go into the war to make any snatching attempts. And the last time he tried that he kind of died.

If he gets Sasuke, he can re-enter the war with the same Sharingan power/potential as Madara. Even Suigetsu stated that Orochimaru would take part in the war once he learned about it. What kind of villain doesn't care what the other villains are up to? He's lying through his teeth.

The answers that Sasuke is looking for are regarding personal problems he has. All the elements that his issues came from happened long after the Sage was dead. It would make no real sense for him to want to talk to him about them.

But the Senju and Uchiha conflict began due to the Sage's passing. If Sasuke wants to know the true history of his clan, then he wants to speak to someone from around that era, right? Who else is he going to talk to - some ominous shadow cabinet of Konoha?

2) Moon Eye Plan goes as planned.

Heh... then we go back to the beginning where Naruto never lost his parents, Sasuke never lost his clan, and Sakura gets to fall in love with whoever.

Or the world might just get fixed once the various governments decide to stop turning children into ninja.

[Robotech Master]

If he gets Sasuke, he can re-enter the war with the same Sharingan power/potential as Madara. Even Suigetsu stated that Orochimaru would take part in the war once he learned about it. What kind of villain doesn't care what the other villains are up to? He's lying through his teeth.

Ok, you're apparently mis-remembering how things went. "Even Suigetsu stated" means nothing, because the order of things was

1) Suigetsu says Orochimaru will get involved in the War.
2) Sasuke brings Orochimaru back
3) Orochimaru says he was aware of things happening in the outside world and says "By the way Suigetsu, let me just say one thing: I have absolutely no interest in this war."

There is zero evidence that he's lying through his teeth in this scenario. It's actually far more believable for him to be strangely honest and upfront at this point. Him suddenly saying "Psych, time to go troll the main cast instead of letting them be the ones to fix their problems" would be bad writing, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, Sasuke and Orochimaru are setting things up for the next arc. At the most, I see them doing something that messes up the Moon's Eye Plan a bit, like delays it or leaves a loophole of cancellation in it, but not by physically showing up to overburden this battle with even more shit.

But the Senju and Uchiha conflict began due to the Sage's passing. If Sasuke wants to know the true history of his clan, then he wants to speak to someone from around that era, right? Who else is he going to talk to - some ominous shadow cabinet of Konoha?

The only clue we have to who Sasuke wants to talk to is that Orochimaru asked "Why do you want to talk with them?" It could be any group, but it could only be the Sage if he's a part of that group. A closer idea that fits would be for it to be the brothers who founded the Senju and Uchiha lines; but honestly I'm not sure where the Sasuke thing is going--what he seems to want are answers that will impart to him a greater conviction in doing what he thinks he wants to do.

EDIT: Speaking of Sasuke's future roles, there's something really bugging me right now. Why the fuck did Tobi want Sasuke in Akatsuki and why eagerly seek him to awaken EMS? Because there was no payoff to that. He mentioned something about synching him to the Gedo Mazo to replace Nagato as his pawn maybe. Nope, none of that; Mazo seems to work fine. Needs his EMS to do something important? Nope, he seems to be rather eager to start the Moon's Eye Plan right now.

I suppose he may have needed to play a role that Madara is now doing, but they didn't mention anything so that's just an assumption on my part. It's a bit of a plot hole at the moment.

[The Dog]

If he gets Sasuke, he can re-enter the war with the same Sharingan power/potential as Madara. Even Suigetsu stated that Orochimaru would take part in the war once he learned about it. What kind of villain doesn't care what the other villains are up to? He's lying through his teeth.

Oh please, he's not going to get involved in the war. He's going to sit back, wait until one side wins the actually battle, and then swoop in and steal the moment of victory as his own.

[Hazard]

EDIT: Speaking of Sasuke's future roles, there's something really bugging me right now. Why the fuck did Tobi want Sasuke in Akatsuki and why eagerly seek him to awaken EMS? Because there was no payoff to that. He mentioned something about synching him to the Gedo Mazo to replace Nagato as his pawn maybe. Nope, none of that; Mazo seems to work fine. Needs his EMS to do something important? Nope, he seems to be rather eager to start the Moon's Eye Plan right now.

I suppose he may have needed to play a role that Madara is now doing, but they didn't mention anything so that's just an assumption on my part. It's a bit of a plot hole at the moment.

My guess is that it had something to do with making Juubi easier to control or something to that effect.

Kabuto bringing Madara back to life in the way he did may have altered or derailed his plans to some degree or just plain made them unneeded.

[1505627]

My guess is that it had something to do with making Juubi easier to control or something to that effect.

Kabuto bringing Madara back to life in the way he did may have altered or derailed his plans to some degree or just plain made them unneeded.

which would explain why he was fine with letting kabutomaru off the sauce in exchange

[Dark Soul # 7]

maybe that's where Orochimaru is going-- to use Edo Tensei on the Sage of the Six Paths-- it wouldn't be a big stretch considering that Kabuto somehow revived the original Madara's body. Oro doesn't seem the kind of felllow who would abide getting upstaged that badly.

Difference being that Madara died relatively recently while the sage died way way back before Madara and Hashirama even had their big fight.

As for Orochimaru and any interest he might have in it. Besides the fact that he's said he won't get involved it's basically a bunch of people he doesn't care about fighting for causes he doesn't care about. For him that's good. Let them kill each other so that he has less people to be bothered by afterwards.

Yes.

2, 3, 1.

This.

EDIT: Speaking of Sasuke's future roles, there's something really bugging me right now. Why the fuck did Tobi want Sasuke in Akatsuki and why eagerly seek him to awaken EMS? Because there was no payoff to that. He mentioned something about synching him to the Gedo Mazo to replace Nagato as his pawn maybe. Nope, none of that; Mazo seems to work fine. Needs his EMS to do something important? Nope, he seems to be rather eager to start the Moon's Eye Plan right now.

I suppose he may have needed to play a role that Madara is now doing, but they didn't mention anything so that's just an assumption on my part. It's a bit of a plot hole at the moment.

I'd also guess that it's because Madara's there now to take Sasuke's role. The more I think about it the more I realise how lucky Obito was that Kabuto showed with his zombie-army when he did. Not only did it give Obito's forces the extra fire-power to actually give his side a fighting chance, he also got a kyuubi substitute in Ginkaku and Kinkaku and a replacement for Sasuke should he not want to play ball, which he wouldn't.

[Kamina]

Oh please, he's not going to get involved in the war. He's going to sit back, wait until one side wins the actually battle, and then swoop in and steal the moment of victory as his own.

...why not do that with a Sharingan, or a politically-corrected Sasuke on your side?

Ok, you're apparently mis-remembering how things went. "Even Suigetsu stated" means nothing, because the order of things was

1) Suigetsu says Orochimaru will get involved in the War.
2) Sasuke brings Orochimaru back
3) Orochimaru says he was aware of things happening in the outside world and says "By the way Suigetsu, let me just say one thing: I have absolutely no interest in this war."

Suigetsu states this without knowing Orochimaru was listening in. He honestly believes this. He's known Orochimaru just as long, if not longer than Sasuke. He has no reason to lie, whereas Orochimaru does, because telling your enemy that you have a hand/are going to have a hand in a world-changing event is a stupid move. Just as stupid as telling your enemy that you don't have enough power to take over their body. A) Orochimaru just took back his "chakra/essence" from Kabuto so he's probably got his second wind. B) By deceiving them and telling them he has no "interest" and "not enough power" it puts Sasuke/Suigetsu/Jugo into a false sense of security. If I were the villain who just came back from the dead, that's what I would do.

There is zero evidence that he's lying through his teeth in this scenario. It's actually far more believable for him to be strangely honest and upfront at this point.

Why would he honor Sasuke's request to the fullest? The boy tried to kill him twice. I would think he's doing it/going through the motions so Sasuke doesn't roast him alive.

Him suddenly saying "Psych, time to go troll the main cast instead of letting them be the ones to fix their problems" would be bad writing, IMO.

I'm not saying he's gonna troll the main cast right off the bat. But what reason does Sasuke have to trust Orochimaru at all? They have both tried to kill/absorb each other. Orochimaru could be leading Sasuke into Lavender Town for all we know. To me, having the villain make stupid decisions like blabbing his true objective to the protagonist is even worse writing. Deceiving Sasuke would be a smarter option.

Okay, assume Orochimaru is being honorable, then what is Orochimaru going to show Sasuke that makes them team up? Sasuke is going to team up with Lord Voldemort's ninja ancestor because he's still obsessed with the idea that his clan was this perfect, utopian society until a bunch of assholes came and wrecked it? And Orochimaru's going to team up with Sasuke because sticking close to the person you want to bodysnatch but could kill you at any given moment is great camaraderie? I stick with the idea that Orochimaru is either going to lie to him to bide for time/an ambush, or select the truth that points Sasuke in the direction he wants him to go in - to the war with more disdain for Madara/Obito than Orochimaru.

If Orochimaru really is caddying to Sasuke's request and setting up the next arc, then that disappoints me. Not that Orochimaru returning as an antagonist is bad, but doing so and completely hijacking the spot from Madara and Obito is a terrible decision. The Ten-Tails is here now. Kishimoto is going to have to write some age-old conspiracy, like the Vanderviech Invasion or the Hogyuku, to outdo the Ten-Tails showing up and the world being permanently altered. The Ten-Tails/The Tailed Beasts are the fuel behind the plot; ignoring them in favor of Orochimaru would be like ignoring the horcruxes for Harry's conflict with Draco Malfoy, or ignoring Frieza for the Dragon Balls, or ignoring Darth Vader for Boba Fett.

At least Madara imparted his philosophy onto Obito - they use a similar fighting style, they're both portrayed as being nigh-unbeatable, they come from the same clan, they have a personal history, they have flashbacks, etc. That creates a villainous pair that, in my eyes, are worthy of being the "final antagonists".

As far as I'm concerned, Sasuke and Orochimaru are setting things up for the next arc. At the most, I see them doing something that messes up the Moon's Eye Plan a bit, like delays it or leaves a loophole of cancellation in it, but not by physically showing up to overburden this battle with even more shit.

They don't have to show up right away. Come up with a reason to make Sasuke deactivate "Avenger Mode" and settle his score with Naruto.

The displays of power in this series are already off the charts, we've got ninja gods/demons playing dodgeball with nuclear energy blasts, and the "war arc" paints a huge conflict for the protagonists to resolve. I want Sasuke and Orochimaru to get involved with this plot, rather than just set up some new chain of events. What was the point of all this build-up to "The Ten-Tails, Madara Uchiha, Obito, and the Moon's Eye Plan" if Orochimaru/Sasuke was just going to hijack the plot all of a sudden?

As for Orochimaru and any interest he might have in it. Besides the fact that he's said he won't get involved it's basically a bunch of people he doesn't care about fighting for causes he doesn't care about. For him that's good. Let them kill each other so that he has less people to be bothered by afterwards.

He's a lazy villain then. Orochimaru barely survived against Naruto's 4-Tailed Form, so claiming victory from a bruised and battered Jinchuriki combo, or the Uchiha combo, is going to end badly for him. The zombies are gone, the Zetsus will be dealt with, and there's still a battered ninja army in the distance. Good luck Snake-Man.

...unless Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei and starts the whole process over again...

[Totoro Man]

I think Orochimaru is going to have a massive off-panel power-up that's never explained. he'll basically be like Eric Cartman: "when I get resu-erected and get super-powers I'm gonna smote you assholes!"

it wouldn't be the first time in Naruto that somebody got a power-up for no explicable reason.

my only hope is that he doesn't get WTF-pwned instantly by yet another Uchiha. one of the most frustrating things in the manga was when he came back to get killed off in less than give panels by Itachi. that was ridiculous.

[Dark Soul # 7]

If Orochimaru really is caddying to Sasuke's request and setting up the next arc, then that disappoints me. Not that Orochimaru returning as an antagonist is bad, but doing so and completely hijacking the spot from Madara and Obito is a terrible decision. The Ten-Tails is here now. Kishimoto is going to have to write some age-old conspiracy, like the Vanderviech Invasion or the Hogyuku, to outdo the Ten-Tails showing up and the world being permanently altered. The Ten-Tails/The Tailed Beasts are the fuel behind the plot; ignoring them in favor of Orochimaru would be like ignoring the horcruxes for Harry's conflict with Draco Malfoy, or ignoring Frieza for the Dragon Balls, or ignoring Darth Vader for Boba Fett.

To be fair, from a reader perspective Orochimaru was the big bad WAY before Obito Tobi showed up or Madara was even mentioned. They kind of high-jacked his position as the big bad so it's only fair that he gets it back, unless it's Sasuke that takes up that role which is fairly likely. And the tailed beasts as a group have barely been fuel of the plot in significant world-moving way. They've mostly been a neat little detail to the world of Naruto with the kyuubi being the most driving one since his interactions with Naruto have displayed Naruto's development as a character rather nicely. What's really been the plot-fuel is this personal story between Naruto and Sasuke, the rest of the world just happened to get involved recently.

And I for one wouldn't mind dialing things back a bit with just Orochimaru and Sasuke as the final big threats. All the kaijuu-fighting and mountain busting just isn't doing anything for me.

At least Madara imparted his philosophy onto Obito - they use a similar fighting style, they're both portrayed as being nigh-unbeatable, they come from the same clan, they have a personal history, they have flashbacks, etc. That creates a villainous pair that, in my eyes, are worthy of being the "final antagonists".

But they have very few connections to Naruto, the main character. Obito is really part of Kakashi's story which kind of automatically makes him not the final villain and Madara is more of a boogey-man for the entire ninja world to overcome, which is why I'm so against Naruto beating him on his own, and he just recently met Naruto.

Sasuke on the other hand has all the right connections, opposing philosophy, power and character development to be the main antagonist in the end.

And I hardly think Obito's been portrayed as nigh-unbeatable, mostly because Minato kicked his ass. Especially not on Madara's level.

[Hazard]

I've seen fanfics where Naruto hates ramen. He only eats it because he can't afford anything else.

I've also seen fics where he hates the color orange, and only wears it because he can't afford stereotypically 'ninja-ey' clothes.

And on this horrible reminder of some people's reading comprehension skills, I got to say I have read lots fanfics with different takes on Naruto's relationship with the Kyuubi.

The canon one, that Kishimoto has established in this last year is so far my favorite by far.

Even the stuff like Kyuubi naturally becoming the leader of this team just feels so natural.