Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[flashdisk]

I give Rin's death the impact it deserves in Obito's decision.

You are giving it too much impact to the point of turning it into a single cause event.

Obito whole heartedly and confidently runs in to save Rin, Rin dies, Obito kills dozens of myst soldiers and rushes back to Madara to accept his proposal. I'd say that that event had a lot of impact.

Okay seriously, what?

Why do you think Obito is doing this? Did you miss the whole reason of his flashback chapters?

Did you just look at the pictures and didn't read at all? Wait, one of the chapters was pictures only so that can't have been the case.

In any case I am at loss as to how the concept of a Well-Intentioned Extremist escapes you in such an epic way.

Again, when has Obito stated that its out of generosity that he's doing what he's doing? If it's out of generosity or kindness; then I can say its well intentioned. But I doubt there's anything to say that. There is also little revealed by Tobi on the final result of Eternal Tsukiyomi to say it's well intentioned.

If Obito was so convinced by the goodness of such a new world, why has he been so quiet about it? Why not share the dream if he really wanted to help others. Why pick a fight with the kages instead?

Tell me something if Rin came back to live right now, do you think Obito would stop doing what he is doing?

If Rin had died in a better world, a much better world, do you think Obito would be doing what he is doing?

If you think yes, you are failing. Horribly.

It looks to me that you're the one imposing his emotions on Obito. After all, I'm the one who's looking for more understanding on the character. I've stated what I would want of him. But you're the one who's now stating what he would do or act.

You aren't. You are curious at to what you would feel. You will then reason out Obito's feelings based on yours, which would fail because Obito and you are different people.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about others. I doubt you know that much about me.

I didn't.

Yes you did. I just quoted the statement.

But you have. As has been pointed out several times already, you are putting too much emphasis on what you feel as opposed to what Obito feels. You try to impose your feelings on him in an attempt to understand which is doomed to fail form the beginning because you aren't Obito.

To impose one's is to try to force one's feelings unto another. I doubt I've done that. If I did I wouldn't be curious as to why he's acting the way he is and asking for more development in regards to his past with Rin or his background.

[Hazard]

Okay, let's try to tone this down.

Obito whole heartedly and confidently runs in to save Rin, Rin dies, Obito kills dozens of myst soldiers and rushes back to Madara to accept his proposal. I'd say that that event had a lot of impact.

Again, you are not getting it. You are too focused on the trigger to see the realization. They are both important in their way, but you are completely missing one and how it ties into everything because you are too focused on the other.

Basically, in between killing Mist Ninja and rushing to Madara, you are skipping the Most Important Part

Again, when has Obito stated that its out of generosity that he's doing what he's doing? If it's out of generosity or kindness; then I can say its well intentioned. But I doubt there's anything to say that. There is also little revealed by Tobi on the final result of Eternal Tsukiyomi to say it's well intentioned.

If Obito was so convinced by the goodness of such a new world, why has he been so quiet about it? Why not share the dream if he really wanted to help others. Why pick a fight with the kages instead?

Did you miss the part where he told them it was a totally awesome world and they were all 'screw you'?

That's a genuine question by the way.

It looks to me that you're the one imposing his emotions on Obito. After all, I'm the one who's looking for more understanding on the character. I've stated what I would want of him. But you're the one who's now stating what he would do or act.

Are we really getting into a 'no, you' debate? Are we?

And I notice you did not answer my question. Both of them. They weren't rhetorical.

Yes you did. I just quoted the statement.

The statement doesn't say what you think it says. Please do go back and read my posts.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about others. I doubt you know that much about me.

To impose one's is to try to force one's feelings unto another. I doubt I've done that. If I did I wouldn't be curious as to why he's acting the way he is and asking for more development in regards to his past with Rin or his background.

I am working with what you are giving me.

What you are giving me is telling me that you are superimposing your feelings on to them. That's why you want to know the Moon's Eye Plan. To form an opinion, and therefore form out Obito's (yours actually) opinion of it. You are not curious about Obito's opinion. You are curious about yours. Kind of like your opinion on Nagato's plan.

Which is quite unnecessary as Obito already has an opinion.

So yeah, it would be my conclusion that you need to work a bit on that empathy.

[flashdisk]

Okay, let's try to tone this down.



Again, you are not getting it. You are too focused on the trigger to see the realization. They are both important in their way, but you are completely missing one and how it ties into everything because you are too focused on the other.

I think I 've got it correctly. I don't think I've focused too much on one.

Did you miss the part where he told them it was a totally awesome world and they were all 'screw you'?

That's a genuine question by the way.

From what I remember he stated 'he wanted everyone one with him' through a massive genjutsu 'everything will be united'. That does not even sound like trying to gain support.

For a person that's trying to garner support for his cause, he instead focused on making demands for the Hachibi and the Kyubi. Then quickly declares war after that.

Are we really getting into a 'no, you' debate? Are we?

I think my statement here is correct, you're the one imposing your own emotions on the character. What makes you the expert on Obito and how he will act?

And I notice you did not answer my question. Both of them. They weren't rhetorical.

You mean this question:

Tell me something if Rin came back to live right now, do you think Obito would stop doing what he is doing?

If Rin had died in a better world, a much better world, do you think Obito would be doing what he is doing?

If you think yes, you are failing. Horribly.

I dont wan't to answer a loaded question. I think its pretty much annoying. I might just answer one way just to go against it.

The statement doesn't say what you think it says. Please do go back and read my posts.

I think it does. You wanted to say that Rin's death wasn't that important compared to your 'other reasons' in causing Obito's choice to stay with Madara. I said it still was.

I am working with what you are giving me.

What you are giving me is

telling me

that you are superimposing your feelings on to them. That's why you want to know the Moon's Eye Plan. To form an opinion, and therefore form out Obito's (yours) opinion of it.

Which is quite unnecessary as Obito already has an opinion.

So yeah, it would be my conclusion that you need to work a bit on that empathy.

You mean you are making assumptions about me, which I think is pretty much incorrect. So it would be my conclusion that you should stop making assumptions.

[Hazard]

I think I 've got it correctly. I don't think I've focused too much on one.

Pop quiz time then, what is Obito's realization? How does it tie into him accepting Madara's plan?

The fact that you can't answer either of the above is why we are debating in the first place.

From what I remember he stated 'he wanted everyone one with him' through a massive genjutsu 'everything will be united'. That does not even sound like trying to gain support.

For a person that's trying to garner support for his cause, he instead focused on making demands for the Hachibi and the Kyubi. Then quickly declares war after that.

He told them what Infinite Tsukuyomi was. It is a world where there is no free will. There is no getting around that. It is also because of that that there is no war or hatred and so on.

The Kages didn't like it. Obito did.

I think my statement here is correct, you're the one imposing your own emotions on the character. What makes you the expert on Obito and how he will act?

Apparently, because I am the one reading what is in the manga based on previous post of yours.

You mean this question:

I dont wan't to answer a loaded question. I think its pretty much annoying. I might just answer one way just to go against it.

So basically you want to demonstrate you are actually refusing to see Obito's point as opposed to not getting it, then?

I think it does. You wanted to say that Rin's death wasn't that important compared to your 'other reasons'. I said still was.

Like I said before, please do go back and reread my posts, because it is clear you still haven't understood them.

You mean you are making assumptions about me, which I think is pretty much incorrect. So it would be my conclusion that you should stop making assumptions.

Deduction actually or maybe just observation. Your words and actions give me insight into your personality which is then used to make a profile. It's pretty much how people get to know one another.

[flashdisk]

Pop quiz time then, what is Obito's realization? How does it tie into him accepting Madara's plan?

The fact that you can't answer either of the above is why we are debating in the first place.

I didn't answer because I'm beginning to question you. I also question your credentials to quiz me. And I question the loaded questions you're trying to make me answer.

But I will say that Obito felt that the world is hell and wanted to be released from it.

He told them what Infinite Tsukuyomi was. It is a world where there is no free will. There is no getting around that. It is also because of that that there is no war or hatred and so on.

The Kages didn't like it. Obito did.

I doubt a world without free will is a world made out of generosity or concern for others.

Apparently, because I am the one reading what is in the manga based on previous post of yours.

Your not the only one reading the manga. So I still question your credentials.

So basically you want to demonstrate you actually refusing to see Obito's point as opposed to not getting it, then?

I am simply refusing to acknowledge the validity of your loaded question.

Like I said before, please do go back and reread my posts, because it is clear you still haven't understood them.

I'd say I have.

Deduction actually. Your words and actions give me insight into your personality which is then used to make a profile. It's pretty much how people get to know one another.

It still doesn't mean its correct.

[Hazard]

I didn't answer because I'm beginning to question you. I also question your credentials to quiz me. And I question the loaded questions you're trying to make me answer.

But I will say that Obito felt that the world is hell and wanted to be released from it.

The bolded is right. The problem is the later.

Think of Naruto, because Obito is very much like him. Being released from it would never be enough for Naruto. No, Naruto would want (and wants) to change it.

Same with Obito. He wants to change the world entirely (yeah, he is creating a new world. That's his way of changing it.)

I doubt a world without free will is a world made out of generosity or concern for others.

Is it? If free will is what leads people to make the same mistakes again and again, would the world not be better off without it?

The world is wrong. That's Obito's realization. The world is wrong and needs to change.

This is the way he has chosen.

Whether you agree to it or not is irrelevant. I sure as hell don't, but that won't stop me from understanding how Obito can think that way.

It really is that simple.

Your not the only one reading the manga. So I still question your credentials.

My credential are awesome and made of cookies.

I am simply refusing to acknowledge the validity of your loaded question.

The question will determine how worthwhile this debate is. If you really think yes, then this will go nowhere.

I'd say I have.

Then you have greatly misunderstood my words. Several times.

It still doesn't mean its correct.

In the same way, the opposite holds true.

[Totoro Man]

this reminds me of a lot of the debates concerning "Watchmen" where certain tacit assumptions about the text are assumed by one party and ignored by the other.

consider Adrian Veidt's plan to circumvent themonuclear annihilation-- some people really buy into that idea. other people, like me, never believed it. even when I was 10 years old I came to the belief that mutually assured destruction, nuclea apocalypes-- what-have-you, was just a terrifying pipe-dream that people were using to help motivate disarmament. I was always of the opinion, "if you don't have the guts to use them, then why are you building them? couldn't you spend that money on something else?"

I think Asimov was quoted as saying "if it was going to happen at all it would have happened by now."

so I considered Veidt's plan to be completely unnecessary and a dismal failure. there are many avid readers of "Watchmen" that assume that Veidt's plan was the only thing that prevented nuclear armeggedon. I believe Moore's work is flexibile enough to allow for both interpretations.

I've seen people emphatically declare that if you, as a reader, didn't support Veidt's plan that somehow you hated humanity and didn't want it saved.

unless Kishimoto does something pretty different with Obito, Kakashi, Madara, and Rin's backstory before the manga ends-- I'm still going to think that Obito's transformation was perfunctory and unsatisfying. that's my opinion-- it might change later, but based on all of the other moral transformations I've seen in this manga-- I don't like it. I would have much rather revealed that Tobi/Madara/Obito were all the same person much earlier-- and dropped clues and hints over a longer period of time.

I dislike how Obito goes from the crybaby 'failure' ninja to an evil power-house that can hold his own with hokages-- if people we're bothered by Sasuke's "ass-pull" power-ups is it out of pure resignation that they're accepting Obito's? the wood technique has never shown up before-- it's almost like Kishi figured out "crap! he really IS a one-trick pony. I guess it's time for another Uchiha ass-pull where the sharingan shits out new powers to help them stay competitive." (to be fair, in THIS case it's because he's using a clone body based in Hashirama's DNA-- but it still feels awfully convenient. wouldn't that technique have proven useful in-- just about every fight that Obito has had thus far? why wait to use it now? because Kishi just now thought about it? arguments in favor of Kishimoto having a grand master-plan don't hold up under analysis-- I think he's making it up as a he goes along-- and Obito's factured and contradictory history feel like one of the most obvious examples.

perhaps my primary complaint about Obito isn't his transformation-- it's about Kishimoto's post time-skip writing in general.

[Hazard]

this reminds me of a lot of the debates concerning "Watchmen" where certain tacit assumptions about the text are assumed by one party and ignored by the other.

consider Adrian Veidt's plan to circumvent themonuclear annihilation-- some people really buy into that idea. other people, like me, never believed it.

This is a bit different. Not one of the people that say Obtio's development makes sense actually believes his plan is a good thing.

At least I hope we don't.

We are arguing for realistic character development, not taking away free will.

I dislike how Obito goes from the crybaby 'failure' ninja to an evil power-house that can hold his own with hokages-- if people we're bothered by Sasuke's "ass-pull" power-ups is it out of pure resignation that they're accepting Obito's? the wood technique has never shown up before--

It actually makes a lot of sense considering how much time he had and his bloodline. Also, he was using mokuton in the chapter right before he fights mist ninja.

wouldn't that technique have proven useful in-- just about every fight that Obito has had thus far? why wait to use it now? because Kishi just now thought about it? arguments in favor of Kishimoto having a grand master-plan don't hold up under analysis-- I think he's making it up as a he goes along-- and Obito's factured and contradictory history feel like one of the most obvious examples.

Not really. There are plenty of clue and foreshadowing about the plot of the manga, especially in part 2. It's not like people weren't theorizing his had a Zetsu body years before the actual reveal. In that sense the Mokuton just makes, well, sense.

[flashdisk]

The bolded is right. The problem is the later.

Think of Naruto, because Obito is very much like him. Being released from it would never be enough for Naruto. No, Naruto would want (and wants) to change it.

Same with Obito. He wants to change the world entirely (yeah, he is creating a new world. That's his way of changing it.)

That's been stated previously.

And my desires remain the same, I wan't development on the relationship between Obito and Rin and the world they're creating.

Is it? If free will is what leads people to make the same mistakes again and again, would the world not be better off without it?

The world is wrong. That's Obito's realization. The world is wrong and needs to change.

This is the way he has chosen.

Whether you agree to it or not is irrelevant. I sure as hell don't, but that won't stop me from understanding how Obito can think that way.

It really is that simple.

I don't care whether I agree with him or not. In my eyes hes' not making these changes for others or for kindness or for generosity. But I still would want them expanded upon.

My credential are awesome and made of cookies.

The question will determine how worthwhile this debate is. If you really think yes, then this will go nowhere.

It think it would depend on who Rin was to Obito. And that's one more reason I want to know about Rin. If Rin had as much influence as Jiraiya, Iruka, Kushina/Minato with Naruto, then words from her saying that she's against what he's doing could shake Obito. Otherwise Obito is too far gone to change.

If Rin had died in a peaceful world, I doubt Obito would choose Madara as a means to resolve problems.

And what I want expanded upon is still there.

Then you have greatly misunderstood my words. Several times.

Or maybe you did not understand mine when you made them.

I've traced it all back to me saying why I wan't Rin's relationship with Obito expended upon; saying that she's an important trigger for the events that unfolded.

And it seems that you are trying to force Obito''s new perspective for the world as main culprit of his actions. And I still stated that Rin was the trigger for the events because Obito wouldn't feel that way about the world without her.

In the same way, the opposite holds true.

I doubt it is.

[Hazard]

That's been stated previously.

And my desires remain the same, I wan't development on the relationship between Obito and Rin and the world they're creating.

Why? What do you think that will clear up for you that hasn't already been explained?

I don't care whether I agree with him or not. In my eyes hes' not making these changes for others or for kindness or for generosity. But I still would want them expanded upon.

Why is he making this if not to make a better world? What reason does he have then?

It think it would depend on who Rin was to Obito. And that's one more reason I want to know about Rin. If Rin had as much influence as Jiraiya, Iruka, Kushina/Minato with Naruto, then words from her saying that she's against what he's doing could shake Obito. Otherwise Obito is too far gone to change.

It wouldn't. That's the thing. The guy is trying to change the world. That's his focus. Rin coming back won't change anything because the world would still be wrong.

If Rin had died in a peaceful world, I doubt Obito would choose Madara as a means to resolve problems.

See, you do understand to a point. A peaceful world is not wrong, so there is no need for Madara's plan.

This is the other side to those words, A non-peaceful world is wrong, so it has a need for Madara's plan.

Or maybe you did not understand mine when you made them.

I've traced it all back to me saying why I wan't Rin's relationship with Obito expended upon; saying that she's an important trigger for the events that unfolded.

And it seems that you are trying to force Obito''s new perspective for the world as main culprit of his actions. And I still stated that Rin was the trigger for the events because Obito wouldn't feel that way about the world without her.

Here is what you are missing. Both are important. Rin's death matters. She is the trigger.

But what is wrong is the world and that is what Obito is trying to change. Rin's death is a result of the world. Misery is a result of the world. Look at the world of Naruto. Look at the continuing mystery and struggle. Look at war. Look at Danzo. Look at everything we already know is wrong with the world.

Obito is just seeing it back then. Just realizing it.

Obito is trying to change the world because he doesn't want the current world that allows things like Rin's death to happen.

Basically, trying to find more information in the relationship between the two to comprehend why Obito does what he does is meaningless.

Also, don't space so much. It is a pain to quote.

[flashdisk]

Why? What do you think that will clear up for you?

Again as I stated many times before, I want to feel a little bit of what they felt. Understanding with the mind is not much of a concern. My enjoyment comes from the emotions that the manga can share. I want to feel the feelings Obito had for just a little bit. It helps me like the character and enjoy the story.

Why is he making this if not to make a better world? What reason does he have then?

He's making a world for himself and dragging people along for the ride because he feels he's right and they're wrong. From where I stand, he's doing this out of pride. Is he being forced to 'save' those that don't want to be saved. If not, then I doubt he cares much about them, and I doubt he cares much about regardless of what world he's on.

It wouldn't. That's the thing. The guy is trying to change the world. That's his focus. Rin coming back won't change anything because the world would still be wrong.

Thats your view on the matter. For me, I want to see if there is still something left of the idealist from the Kakkashi Gaiden. And I want to see if there's more to his relationship with Rin.

Here is what you are missing. Both are important. Rin's death matter. She is the trigger.

But what is wrong is the world and that is what Obito is trying to change. Rin's death is a result of the world. Misery is a result of the world.

Obito is trying to change the world because he doesn't want the current world that allows things like Rin's death to happen.

Basically, trying to find more information in the relationship between the two to comprehend why Obito does what he does is meaningless.

Also, don't space so much. It is a pain to quote.

It does if I want to sense what he felt from Rin's loss. I'd say that's the most interesting part, because I don't see much to be gleaned from the idea of blaming the world for one's troubles. Rin and Obito's story is more about emotion than reasoning. I want to see if there's more. I don't think Obito's view of the world was created out of pure logic or reasoning, and I think it would be an interesting story to feel the love and loss that brought that about.

[Hazard]

Again as I stated many times before, I want to feel a little bit of what they felt. Understanding with the mind is not much of a concern. My enjoyment comes from the emotions that the manga can share. I want to feel the feelings Obito had. It helps me like the character and enjoy the story.

He's making a world for himself and dragging people along for the ride because he feels he's right and they're wrong. From where I stand, he's doing this out of pride. Is he being forced to 'save' those that don't want to be saved. If not, then I doubt he cares much about them, and I doubt he cares much about regardless of what world he's on.

Thats your view on the matter. For me, I want to see if there is still something left of the idealist from the Kakkashi Gaiden. And I want to see if there's more to his relationship with Rin.

It does if I want to sense what he felt from Rin's loss. I'd say that's the most interesting part, because I don't see much to be gleaned from the idea of blaming the world for one's troubles. Rin and Obito's story is more about emotion than reasoning. I want to see if there's more. I don't think Obito's view of the world was created out of pure logic or reasoning, and I think it would be an interesting story to feel the love and loss that brought that about.

Yeah, we are not getting anywhere. You are too focused on Rin (the trigger).

Let's leave it here.

And as friendly advice, do work on that empathy.

[The Transient Guest]

Again as I stated many times before, I want to feel a little bit of what they felt. Understanding with the mind is not much of a concern. My enjoyment comes from the emotions that the manga can share. I want to feel the feelings Obito had for just a little bit. It helps me like the character and enjoy the story.

You say you want to know how they felt, we explain how they felt, you say well that's not how I would feel and that means it's wrong.

How are we supposed to make any foreground when all you say is "well that's ME."

Any and every comment we make about his motivations are brushed aside because I wouldn't do that.

Because I don't see it that way.

You simply will not, can not, and do not see it any way but the way that makes most sense to you. We try to say that you shouldn't be superimposing your own mindset onto the situation because doing so means that you see the situation as ME and not as an observer.

Would you come to the same choices that Obito came to? No, you wouldn't. We get that.

Do you understand how he came to those decisions? No, you don't. We get that.

Does that make it bad writing, poor execution, and a terrible story? No, it doesn't. You don't get that.

[flashdisk]

You say you want to know how they felt, we explain how they felt, you say well that's not how I would feel and that means it's wrong.

How are we supposed to make any foreground when all you say is "well that's ME."

Any and every comment we make about his motivations are brushed aside because I wouldn't do that.

Because I don't see it that way.

You simply will not, can not, and do not see it any way but the way that makes most sense to you. We try to say that you shouldn't be superimposing your own mindset onto the situation because doing so means that you see the situation as ME and not as an observer.

Would you come to the same choices that Obito came to? No, you wouldn't. We get that.

Do you understand how he came to those decisions? No, you don't. We get that.


Does that make it bad writing, poor execution, and a terrible story? No, it doesn't. You don't get that.

And were you expecting your point of view to be raised as the one true answer and explanation to the manga? Also bear in mind I did not ask for your explanation, but I still complimented it:

Obito's motivations have to be expanded a bit. I really want to know why Obito loved Rin so much that he's willing to end the world. I also want to know why he threw away the love and care he had for others.


I'm also hoping for a more badass Obito. I don't think 'not caring' has enough passion in it to end the world.

Your post:

I got you covered dog...er....Hazmat.




Here, read this.

And I responded with this:

An interesting explanation. But it really isn't enough for me. I still remember from recent chapters that this was the Obito who would take the time to help an elderly lady cross the road, and I thought it showed a strong sense of compassion for others. And though I do think that Obito had a breaking point, I don't really feel the weight of his experience was enough to overcome that. I am not blind to how much he had trained for the one goal of protecting his friends only to see that squashed. But I don't feel that it was enough to merit his recent actions. And that's why I would still want it expanded upon.

In my opinion, the manga should be able to make the readers feel why the characters are doing what they're doing. I don't feel the manga has done enough of that in regards to Obito's fall. That's just how I feel about it.

I've even stated that its an opinion and my feelings about the manga; meaning it's not an absolute truth. And when you press on about your thougts; quoting my views, I respond to protect my own ideas and perceptions. So I think you should look back and realize you're the one brushing my thoughts and perceptions aside.


Quite frankly, you don't even seem to remember what I've stated. I"ve stated repeatedly what I wanted from the story but I haven't yet stated in this discussion about Obito "Poor writing" and "terrible story". You're the one who's saying that. Why would I ask more story if I stated that the manga had poor writing or terrible story as you seem to be implying? Does asking for development on Obito's fall equate to that? Or to asking for more development on his relationship with Rin.


I doubt that a person who's expressing hatred or disdain for a dish would ask for more servings.

[The Transient Guest]

I've even stated that its an opinion and my feelings about the manga; meaning it's not an absolute truth. And when you press on about your thougts; quoting my views, I respond to protect my own ideas and perceptions.

Which is fine and fun, it's good to have opposing views. Hell I'm hated and loved at the same time in classes because I'm the first person to stand up and tell the teacher they are wrong.

And the thing about perceptions....one person can watch a guy punch a baby and it's hilarious while the guy next to him finds it's morally wrong.

So I think you should look back and realize you're the one brushing my thoughts and perceptions aside.

Well of course I'm brushing your opinions aside. I do find them interesting, thought provoking and fun to debate.
Doesn't change the fact that I think you are wrong.

Quite frankly, you don't even seem to remember what I've stated. I"ve stated repeatedly what I wanted from the story

What's good enough for us, isn't good enough for you.

but I haven't yet stated in this discussion about Obito "Poor writing" and "terrible story". You're the one who's saying that. Why would I ask more story if I stated that the manga had poor writing or terrible story as you seem to be implying?

Well, when you are saying "this is poorly developed" and the like that means you don't like the writing. I'm just taking what I'm given and putting them together to make it "poor writing."

Does asking for development on Obito's fall equate to that? Or to asking for more development on his relationship with Rin.

See, you keep on asking for more. What's wrong with what we've been given?

Entire chapters of flashback has been devoted to this and some readers can get a lot out of what has been given. Others want more and when my side tries to work with what we've been given and we're met with "i need more" then it gets hard to argue because we're working with what is known and you're working with what you want to know.

And I'm not just saying that to you, Obito is a big source of disdain for a lot of readers it's just that right now for the purposes of this discussion you are a figurehead.

I doubt that a person who's expressing hatred or disdain for a dish would ask for more servings.

Patron at a place: This soup is terrible! You go back there, you make it my way!

Reader of a manga: This story is terrible! You go back there, you make it my way!

Edit: Either way, good fucking talk man. Good fucking talk.