Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[flashdisk]

Yet your main issue is with the plan.



See? You keep coming back to the plan. To know if it seems reasonable.

To you.

You are basing the emotional aspect purely on your subjective view of the plan. Because while the thought process has been explained time and time again, you keep coming back to how you need to know the plan to see if it is something you can agree to. Perhaps by putting on it the same positive spin you put on Nagato's plan.

That's if I based it only on the plan. But as I stated previously, I want Obito's relationship with Rin expanded upon. Because I don't feel what he felt, and I still want to know what those feelings are.

basing the emotional aspect purely on your subjective view of the plan

And there really isn't anything to base an emotional aspect on because I don't know much of what the plan is in the first place except is supposed to be genjutsu by Madara.

It really isn't. Because you are reading B when the manga says 23.

Really? So you know what Eternal Tsukiyomi is going to do? Do you know if Rin is going to rise up from her grave and jump for joy into Obito's arms? Do you know what will happen to people's memories and history itself in the genjutsu? Do you know how this everlasting peace is supposed to be done in a world supposedly populated by the same people that caused the conflicts in the first place?

The only description Tobi seems to be saying about this new world is that it's going to wipe away the old one.

No really. What Transient Guest said and what I am getting just now.

You really are doing it wrong at the emotional level.

I kind of feel bad now.

I didn't notice much of what Transient Guests assumptions, but I thought they were basically about trying to understand my statements.

[Hazard]

That's if I based it only on the plan. But as I stated previously, I want Obito's relationship with Rin expanded upon. Because I don't feel what he felt, and I still want to know what those feelings are.

Okay, I am not sure why so many keep doing this, but stop trying to put it all on Rin.

Think of it like this.

A man made a cool drawing.

Then water drops down from the roof because the pipes up there are bad, lands on his paper and wrecks his drawing.

The man then starts wrecking the room.

You think he is doing this out of grief for his lost picture.

He is actually trying to fix the pipes.

And there really isn't anything to base an emotional aspect on because I don't know much of what the plan is in the first place except is supposed to be genjutsu by Madara.

Really? So you know what Eternal Tsukiyomi is going to do? Do you know if Rin is going to rise up from her grave and jump for joy into Obito's arms? Do you know what will happen to people's memories and history itself in the genjutsu? Do you know how this everlasting peace is supposed to be done in a world supposedly populated by the same people that caused the conflicts in the first place?

The only description Tobi seems to be saying about this new world is that it's going to wipe away the old one.

See? You keep coming back to a mostly irrelevant aspect. You keep trying to base your decision on how you feel about something instead of how Tobi feels about something. That's not how you empathize with a character.

[flashdisk]

He think that the ninja world sucks, what with all the suffering, war, death and how everybody acts like it's actually an ok world. So he's going to fix this by creating a perfect world with the Moon's Eye Plan that Madara has devised.

Madara has told him that the plan will create a world without any of the bad stuff that make up the world as it is now. We don't know how much more Madara has told him or how much of it is true or how the plan would actually achieve this. That's what we're waiting to find out the further into the story we get.

Yes. I'm intently waiting for the information. In a way, I even want Madara to succeed in casting the genjutsu because I want to see the world that they're fighting for.

As for Obito's relationship with Rin. I think that we got a pretty good idea of what it was like through the flashback and Kakashi Gaiden. Just go reread those until you get it.

[/QUOTE]

I've been checking the past chapters. And I think it focused more on Obito's relationship with Kakkashi, not really much about his interactions with Rin. Rin gets captured early on.

[flashdisk]

Okay, I am not sure why so many keep doing this, but stop trying to put it all on Rin.

Think of it like this.

A man made a cool drawing.

Then water drops down from the roof because the pipes up there are bad, lands on his paper and wrecks his drawing.

The man then starts wrecking the room.

You think he is doing this out of grief for his lost picture.

He is actually trying to fix the pipes.

For a person who wants to change the world out of the kindness of his heart he sure focused too much on calling Kakkashi trash and saying that Rin's death was the reason for his delayed appearance.

But basically, I'm looking more into Rin because that's all the manga is giving me on Obito's way of thinking. That's the only memory/flashback shown to have triggered his decision to ally with Madara. There's no thought boxes that show his feelings or his logic. What was given all revolved on Rin's death.


And even then Obito's not trying to fix a leak he is replacing all the plumbing. That's not a conclusion one comes into lightly, if Rin wasn't the variable that caused him to choose such a solution then what was?

See? You keep coming back to an mostly irrelevant aspect. You keep trying to base your decision on how you feel about something instead of how Tobi feels about something. That's not how you empathize with a character.

No, actually I don't see it. And I don't see the goal/reason Tobi is fighting for as irrelevant as you seem to be stating. Your pretty far off. What decision did I make? Was stating that I wanted his relationship with Rin expanded upon the decision you're talking about? Was stating that I want more information on his goals that decision?

Well then that's the decision to try to understand more, I find nothing wrong with that. And I'd do it again.

As for what Tobi feels, I've stated this many times previously I want to feel at least a bit of what he feels. That's not pushing my emotions into the character that's me grasping the character's emotions.

And that's why I'd want his relationship with Rin expanded upon. Whatever his goals are, the emotions that caused it are entangled with his affection for the girl, and maybe others from Konoha.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Yes. I'm intently waiting for the information. In a way, I even want Madara to succeed in casting the genjutsu because I want to see the world that they're fighting for.

He probably will manage to pull it off but then Naruto will be able to break out of it somehow and everybody will praise him as the saviour of the ninja world and so on and blah.

I've been checking the past chapters. And I think it focused more on Obito's relationship with Kakkashi, not really much about his interactions with Rin. Rin gets captured early on.

That's what the silent chapter is for and the recent flashback was for.

[Hazard]

For a person who wants to change the world out of the kindness of his heart he sure focused too much on calling Kakkashi trash and saying that Rin's death was the reason for his delayed appearance.

Kakashi is trash and so is Obito from Obito's point of view. It is the nature of the world. Obito has said as much.

It is also why he said he is not going to blame Kakashi.

And yes. Rin is a reason.

Rin dying made him notice the problem, yet you can't seem to grasp that.

But basically, I'm looking more into Rin because that's all the manga is giving me on Obito's way of thinking. That's the only memory/flashback shown to have triggered his decision to ally with Madara. There's no thought boxes that show his feelings or his logic. What was given all revolved on Rin's death.

It isn't. It really isn't.

And even then Obito's not trying to fix a leak he is replacing all the plumbing. That's not a conclusion one comes into lightly, if Rin wasn't the variable that caused him to choose such a solution then what was?

Because the entire world is the root of the problem. Rin's death is a variable. It's not the only one. Madara. His circumstances. His strong force of will. All contributes. We have gone over this already.

See? It keeps coming back to this. It's not that you don't understand. It's that you don't want to, because you can't agree. You dismiss Obito's feelings and fail to empathize.

[flashdisk]

Kakashi is trash and so is Obito from Obito's point of view. It is the nature of the world. Obito has said as much.

It is also why he said he is not going to blame Kakashi.

And yes. Rin is a reason.

Rin dying made him notice the problem, yet you can't seem to grasp that.

And you still admitted Rin is the reason.

It isn't. It really isn't.

Is that all you have to say that? Where else in the manga has Obito tried show that the world he's building is better for society and civilization? Where has he shown that his actions are out of magnanimity or care for a better tomorrow?

Because the entire world is the root of the problem. Rin's death is a variable. It's not the only one. Madara. His circumstances. His strong force of will. All contributes. We have gone over this already.
See? It keeps coming back to this. It's not that you don't understand. It's that you don't want to, because you can't agree. You dismiss Obito's feelings and fail to empathize.

Nope. You keep sayin I dismiss Obito's feelings when I specificallly state I want it expanded upon. I don't see the validity of that reasoning.

As for Rin's death not being the only variable, didn't you just state this:

Rin dying made him notice the problem,.

It's still the variable that pushed him to make the conclusion to side with Madara. Saying the entire world is the root of the problem doesn't change the impact that Rin had on Obito's decision. The very circumstances he's in is because he went to try to save Rin. Madara hardly did anything to get Obito's alliance. And Obito's force of will was already there prior to Rin's death and because he wanted to see Rin.

Saying there are other variables doesn't negate Rin's impact on Obito's decision.

[Hazard]

And you still admitted Rin is the reason.

So?

Is that all you have to say that? Where else in the manga has Obito tried show that the world he's building is better for society and civilization? Where has he shown that his actions are out of magnanimity or care for a better tomorrow?

I'm sorry just what are you talking about? What manga are you reading for the matter?

The entire reason he is trying to change things is because he believes Madara's world is better. It is why he flashes back to the Zetsu talking about how awesome Madara's world is going to be.

Nope. You keep sayin I dismiss Obito's feelings when I specificallly state I want it expanded upon. I don't see the validity of that reasoning.

As for Rin's death not being the only variable, didn't you just state this:

You fixate on Obito's feelings for Rin. Those were already expanded upon as far as they needed to be expanded upon. This isn't some tragic love story. This isn't a heartbroken lover raging against the world.

You dismiss Obito's feelings because you can't get that.

It's still the variable that pushed him to make the conclusion to side with Madara. Saying the entire world is the root of the problem doesn't change the impact that Rin had on Obito's decision. The very circumstances he's in is because he went to try to save Rin. Madara hardly did anything to get Obito's alliance. And Obito's force of will was already there prior to Rin's death and because he wanted to see Rin.

Saying there are other variables doesn't negate Rin's impact on Obito's decision.

Duh. Never said otherwise. I state again and again that she is a reason.

But not how you are thinking of. You are putting the wrong emphasis on Rin's death.

You distort Obito's feelings and motivations, because you are failing to empathize with the character because you are imposing your own feelings on him.

You are failing at empathy.

[flashdisk]

He probably will manage to pull it off but then Naruto will be able to break out of it somehow and everybody will praise him as the saviour of the ninja world and so on and blah.

That's what the silent chapter is for and the recent flashback was for.

I've been checking those too. I still think the manga should expand more into who Rin was to Obito. There are still ways to find out more about their pasts. I'm hoping to see a memory of Rin in Madara's genjutsu. I want to know more about Rin, Obito etc.

[Totoro Man]

given how well Sasuke's descent into evil and Gaara's ascent into heroism were handled-- I do not begrudge people for being thoroughly unconvinced by Obito's transformation into one of the main villians of Naruto. I just think he bungled it with Obito. hopefully he'll flesh out Kakashi's reasons for shanking Rin later in the series.

[flashdisk]

So?

Then stop trying to make it seem Rin had less of an impact in Obito's decision.

I'm sorry just what are you talking about? What manga are you reading for the matter?

The entire reason he is trying to change things is because he believes Madara's world is better. It is why he flashes back to the Zetsu talking about how awesome Madara's world is going to be.

So I ask if Tobi/Obito has shown a desire to change the world for the betterment of humanity, to make a better world and you tell me there are flashback of Zetsu saying how awesome Madara's world is going to be. That's Zetsu talking about his belief in a better world. Where is Obito saying he's doing this out of compassion for the rest of humanity? That's not even Obito.

You fixate on Obito's feelings for Rin. Those were already expanded upon as far as they needed to be expanded upon. This isn't some tragic love story.

It is actually. Brotherly love, sibling love. Unrequited love. The love between friends. As for what gets expanded or told, I doubt that's up to us. What you want for future stories is up to you, but I have stated what I want and that hasn't changed.

You dismiss Obito's feelings because you can't get that.

As I stated previously, I don't think that's the case considering I'm the one curious about his emotions and thoughts.

Duh. Never said otherwise. I state again and again that she is a reason.

But not how you are thinking of. You are putting the wrong emphasis on Rin's death.

You distort Obito's feelings and motivations, because you are failing to empathize with the character because you are imposing your own feelings on him.

You are failing at empathy.

You just tried to negate Rin's impact in the statement below.

Okay, I am not sure why so many keep doing this, but stop trying to put it all on Rin.

Also, I don't think I'm failing at empathy at all. I doubt I have distorted anything. I have shown that Rin and her death tipped Obito to Madara's way of thinking. And that's why I want to know more about Rin in Obito's life.


I am even interested to know what Obito's family life is all about.

[Hazard]

given how well Sasuke's descent into evil and Gaara's ascent into heroism were handled-- I do not begrudge people for being thoroughly unconvinced by Obito's transformation into one of the main villians of Naruto. I just think he bungled it with Obito. hopefully he'll flesh out Kakashi's reasons for shanking Rin later in the series.

He didn't. In this case, I'm fully blaming the ones that can't seem to grasp it.

[Hazard]

Then stop trying to make it seem Rin had less of an impact in Obito's decision.

I give Rin's death the impact it deserves in Obito's decision.

You are giving it too much impact to the point of turning it into a single cause event.

So I ask if Tobi/Obito has shown a desire to change the world for the betterment of humanity, to make a better world and you tell me there are flashback of Zetsu saying how awesome Madara's world is going to be. That's Zetsu talking about his belief in a better world. Where is Obito saying he's doing this out of compassion for the rest of humanity? That's not even Obito.

Okay seriously, what?

Why do you think Obito is doing this? Did you miss the whole reason of his flashback chapters?

Did you just look at the pictures and didn't read at all? Wait, one of the chapters was pictures only so that can't have been the case.

In any case I am at loss as to how the concept of a Well-Intentioned Extremist escapes you in such an epic way.

It is actually. Brotherly love, sibling love. Unrequited love. The love between friends. As for what gets expanded or told, I doubt that's up to us. What you want for future stories is up to you, but I have stated what I want and that hasn't changed.

Tell me something if Rin came back to live right now, do you think Obito would stop doing what he is doing?

If Rin had died in a better world, a much better world, do you think Obito would be doing what he is doing?

If you think yes, you are failing. Horribly.

As I stated previously, I don't think that's the case considering I'm the one curious about his emotions and thoughts.

You aren't. You are curious at to what you would feel. You will then reason out Obito's feelings based on yours, which would fail because Obito and you are different people.

You just tried to negate Rin's impact in the statement below.

I didn't.

I don't think I'm failing at empathy at all. I doubt I have distorted anything.

But you have. As has been pointed out several times already, you are putting too much emphasis on what you feel as opposed to what Obito feels. You try to impose your feelings on him in an attempt to understand which is doomed to fail form the beginning because you aren't Obito.

Basically, you are self-insert writer. You can only understand versions of you, but cannot truly put yourself in someone else' shoes.

[Totoro Man]

Hazard-- I think you should probably take a break from defending Obito and trying to justify Kishimoto's handling of that character. you've handled it really well up to this point-- but when you start using words like "duh" and "you fail at empathy"... it might be time to take a step back and let it go.
stay classy, my friend.

flashdisk-- Hazard's position has always been that Rin was just one strand in a spider-web of motivations that led Obito to go down the path of super-dickery. there's no need to get antagonistic. granted, he's starting to get irrate-- but let's not have the situation escalate.

[Hazard]

Hazard-- I think you should probably take a break from defending Obito and trying to justify Kishimoto's handling of that character. you've handled it really well up to this point-- but when you start using words like "duh" and "you fail at empathy"... it might be time to take a step back and let it go.
stay classy, my friend.

I am less heated and more 'scratching my head looking at the screen' mixed in with some general amusement.

Basically it has reached the point where I have to make fun of it.

But fine, I'll tone it down.