Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Transient Guest]

I just don't see a trusted and admired leader ever doing that to his people and world at large so it's hard for me to answer that even in a hypothetical sense. But even when I consider it as a maybe scenario I just can't see everyone supporting a dream they can't wake up from.

And what's your opinion on just how the new dream world be? A shared thing like I mentioned? Split into individual? Madara-centric or personalized for each one?

Would you want to be in a world where the definition of perfect happiness is decided by someone you hate and diametrically oppose?

[arp2008]

I just don't see a trusted and admired leader ever doing that to his people and world at large so it's hard for me to answer that even in a hypothetical sense. But even when I consider it as a maybe scenario I just can't see everyone supporting a dream they can't wake up from.

And what's your opinion on just how the new dream world be? A shared thing like I mentioned? Split into individual? Madara-centric or personalized for each one?

Would you want to be in a world where the definition of perfect happiness is decided by someone you hate and diametrically oppose?

From what I gather from the manga, it'd be Madara's world and everyone is just living, or dreaming, in it.

Nope, such a world is terrible, markedly when it's very fabric of existence rests on the disposition of a villain. But, omitting the being created and controlled by a bad guy part of it, it's an idea I keep coming back to when seeing how awful human beings are and can be.

[Nik Hasta]

I can see why Obito's plan seemed logical to him. I genuinely can. He was struck with a realisation of how horrific the world was and decided to take steps to stop it.

Think about it, you're in any extremely emotionally fragile state and the man who is colloquially known as one of the most powerful and skillful men who ever existed says to you; "You know, we could do this and make it so everyone's dreams come true,"

On the heels of the stuff Obito had gone through, it makes perfect sense that he'd latch onto a chance like that. Saying he's being a pussy or whatever is disingenuous because he's doing exactly the opposite of running from his problems or not manning up. He's taking what he thinks is the best path to making a utopia. In the dreamworld, everyone who has died can be brought back, everyone who was sad or left destitute by war and conflict will be happy and safe. He has literally the ultimate "ends-justify-the-means," thing going on because he's trying to create paradise for everyone.

It's worth the deaths of hundreds or even thousands because it will mean rapture for billions.

The problem is, as Obito noted himself in his flashback, the further he committed to this path, the less he cared about the real world. To him it is transient and something that needs to be forgotten. Everyone he ever liked or cared about is dead or has been warped, from his perspective, by the circumstances of the world to a position where they are trying to stop him achieving paradise for everyone.

Now, I don't think this plan is moral or good at all. Mostly because I am a strong believer in the independence of people. Free Will and the ability to choose above our most basic drives is what makes a person a person to me. Yes the world can be a bit shitty, both our world and the world of Naruto, but that doesn't mean that mind-controlling everyone is the right answer.

[Hazard]

Sooo....all this back and forth about the moon eye plan good or bad...and no one points out that it's the lunatic VILLAINS who are claiming it's a good thing? WHY should the heroes believe them?

Nah. I"m not debating whether it is good or bad. I like people, and I like free will too much to think taking it away could be a good thing.

I'm merely debating the why of Obito's position because I feel it is being misunderstood.

okay, Hazard, perhaps the reason Kakashi killed Rin doesn't matter to you-- but I think it's a detail worth explaining. it doesn't make sense based on what we've seen presented about Kakashi in the story thus far. perhaps it doesn't matter to Obito-- but as a reader, I -expect- some kind of explanation.

Oh, I am curious.

But it doesn't matter in regards to Obito's motivation.

It will likely be explained before Obito and Kakashi's fight ends to give us a full picture of Kakashi. However as far as Obito goes the how and why of his motivation is already quite clear.

[Guy1]

So yeah, people suck. Everyone. Always have and will.

You're missing the point of being noble and pure if you think removing freewill is a good thing.

[Guy1]

Good point.

Why should anybody believe that the vindictive, arrogant, manipulative legendary villain wants to create actual world-peace? I mean, Obito probably wants that but he's Madara's bitch so what he wants doesn't really matter.

Thank you Dark.

[arp2008]

I can see why Obito's plan seemed logical to him. I genuinely can. He was struck with a realisation of how horrific the world was and decided to take steps to stop it.

Think about it, you're in any extremely emotionally fragile state and the man who is colloquially known as one of the most powerful and skillful men who ever existed says to you; "You know, we could do this and make it so everyone's dreams come true,"

On the heels of the stuff Obito had gone through, it makes perfect sense that he'd latch onto a chance like that. Saying he's being a pussy or whatever is disingenuous because he's doing exactly the opposite of running from his problems or not manning up. He's taking what he thinks is the best path to making a utopia. In the dreamworld, everyone who has died can be brought back, everyone who was sad or left destitute by war and conflict will be happy and safe. He has literally the ultimate "ends-justify-the-means," thing going on because he's trying to create paradise for everyone.

It's worth the deaths of hundreds or even thousands because it will mean rapture for billions.

The problem is, as Obito noted himself in his flashback, the further he committed to this path, the less he cared about the real world. To him it is transient and something that needs to be forgotten. Everyone he ever liked or cared about is dead or has been warped, from his perspective, by the circumstances of the world to a position where they are trying to stop him achieving paradise for everyone.

Now, I don't think this plan is moral or good at all. Mostly because I am a strong believer in the independence of people. Free Will and the ability to choose above our most basic drives is what makes a person a person to me. Yes the world can be a bit shitty, both our world and the world of Naruto, but that doesn't mean that mind-controlling everyone is the right answer.

No, it may not be the right answer but it is an answer, nonetheless.

On Obito, to me, his motivation for doing everything he has done is nothing short of laughable, even more so when there're tons of other characters who have suffered far more deep and personal tragedies. Kakashi is one who'd have been more justifiable doing what Obito is doing when considering what happened to his dad and why, exactly, it happened. Here, there is palpable motivation to hate the world and the people in it for, from Kakashi's view, what stake would he have a world that vilifies a hero to the point of suicide, made even worse by the fact that the one of people Kakashi's dad saved were among those who drove him suicide? But Obito? All he lost was a girl he had a crush on and chose to become an unforgivably evil bastard because of it? Didn't he have family? Didn't he even want to know WHY Kakashi would rikiri the girl he him promise to save through the chest? Did Obito not think there was a story there? WTF? Everything he's doing now is based on nothing but presumption and it's absolutely absurd and a remarkably ludicrous reason for becoming evil.

[Hazard]

Here, there is palpable motivation to hate the world and the people in it for, from Kakashi's view, what stake would he have a world that vilifies a hero to the point of suicide, made even worse by the fact that the one of people Kakashi's dad saved were among those who drove him suicide?

Okay seriously, what's so hard to get about this guy?

He doesn't hate the world.

Hell, he doesn't even hate Kakashi from what we have seen so far.

[arp2008]

Okay seriously, what's so hard to get about this guy?

He doesn't hate the world.

Hell, he doesn't even hate Kakashi from what we have seen so far.

So he's going to the lengths he's going just to see Rin again? Nothing more than that? Again, ridiculous and weak reason to explain his very sudden and dramatic change to a ruthless villain. As I said, there are far more characters with better reason to do what Obito is doing, Kakashi being one example.

[Hazard]

So he's going to the lengths he's going just to see Rin again? Nothing more than that? Again, ridiculous and weak reason to explain his very sudden and dramatic change to a ruthless villain. As I said, there are far more characters with better reason to do what Obito is doing, Kakashi being one example.

Nah. Not just for Rin. It plays a part. Her death was the trigger of his realization, however don't mistake it as 'revenge for', or 'I want to bring Rin back'. If it was that he would have killed Kakashi or used Edo Tensei the moment he heard about it.

It's for the World. Obito genuinely believes it is the way for a better world.

Do you need a reason to make the world better?

[arp2008]

Nah. Not just for Rin. It plays a part. Her death was the trigger of his realization, however don't mistake it as 'revenge for', or 'I want to bring Rin back'. If it was that he would have killed Kakashi or used Edo Tensei the moment he heard about it.

It's for the World. Obito genuinely believes it is the way for a better world.

Do you need a reason to make the world better?

For what though? Where did this sudden realization come from? Where did this all build up from that lead to Rin's death being his breaking point?

[Hazard]

For what though? Where did this sudden realization come from? Where did this all built up from that lead to Rin's death being his breaking point?

Would I reason? Sure, and there are plenty. What is Obito's, though?

"I am in Hell."

I am pretty sure it couldn't have been made clear.

He loses his eye. He fights on. He loses half of his body. He perseveres. He trains. He gets better.

He finds his best friend killing his crush.

How messed up is that? How does that stuff happen? What allows that to happen?

It is what Madara told him. The live in a cruel world. It's the realization that Madara was right about the world.

So if this is Hell, why not change that? It is simple enough.

[arp2008]

"I am in Hell."

I am pretty sure it couldn't have been made clear.

He loses his eye. He fights on. He loses half of his body. He perseveres. He trains. He gets better.

He finds his best friend killing his crush.

How messed up is that? How does that stuff happen? What allows that to happen?

It is what Madara told him. The live in a cruel world. It's the realization that Madara was right about the world.

So if this is Hell, why not change that? It is simple enough.

If he tried to find out perhaps he wouldn't be doing what he is now. If he tried to find he and Kakashi could have become the baddest team in Konoha. If he tried to find perhaps he would have emotionlessly attempt to destroy the village and murder his teacher one minute year old son among the other tons of still unjustifiable wickedness he's perpetrated.

[Hazard]

If he tried to find out perhaps he wouldn't be doing what he is now.

Again you miss the point.

How or why doesn't matter.

It happened. They live in a world that allows that to happen.

Whether Rin was secretly evil. Whether it was a mercy kill. Whether Kakashi was actually in a genjutsu.

It doesn't matter.

Because they still live in a world that allows friends to kill each other.

Unless Rin is actually alive. Which would be stupid. And contradictory.

[arp2008]

Again you miss the point.

How or why doesn't matter.

It happened. They live in a world that allows that to happen.

Whether Rin was secretly evil. Whether it was a mercy kill. Whether Kakashi was actually in a genjutsu.

It doesn't matter.

Because they still live in a world that allows friends to kill each other.

Unless Rin is actually alive. Which would be stupid. And contradictory.

It doesn't make any sense, though. There are too many reasons for Obito to have not become evil, and his reasons for doing so are tenuous at best. And how is trying to destroy Konoha or killing an infant supposed to relieve him of his hell, anyway, especially when he didn't care enough to kill the man directly culpable for putting him in hell in the first place?