Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Drunkard Kid]

Anyone else think the Moons Eye Plan is actually a good idea given how heinous humans are? Naruto's BS about stopping the cycle of hatred is just that: BS. As Obito once put it, Naruto is nothing more a naive, wishful child and, is it true, that for there to be winner there must be losers. This cause and effect if inescapable.

YMMV, but violating free will on a global scale to fit what one or two guys consider "fair" isn't my idea of reasonable alternative to dealing with a world that often sucks. Its a lazy cop out that circumvents personal and societal growth and evolution in order to create a stagnant daydream in an act that manages to be simultaneously masturbatory and rapacious. Even Pain's crackpot scheme didn't force people to act against their natures.

[The Drunkard Kid]

The issue with the Moon Eye plan, beside the innately subjective "escapism is bad" angle, is that the people that die in the process of executing won't actually be brought back - it'll just look like they've been brought back.

Also, that it doesn't give people the choice of being in the illusion or not.

Weeeelll, considering the revelation that Juubi is apparently God and that the Sharingan has retconvision in addition to Tsukiyomi and another dojutsu can ressurect entire villages when used by someone without functionally infinite chakra, its possible that it actually does resurrect the dead.

[Siriel]

Weeeelll, considering the revelation that Juubi is apparently God and that the Sharingan has retconvision in addition to Tsukiyomi and another dojutsu can ressurect entire villages when used by someone without functionally infinite chakra, its possible that it actually does resurrect the dead.

I suppose, but that wasn't mentioned.

[The Dog]

Weeeelll, considering the revelation that Juubi is apparently God and that the Sharingan has retconvision in addition to Tsukiyomi and another dojutsu can ressurect entire villages when used by someone without functionally infinite chakra, its possible that it actually does resurrect the dead.

And I seem to remember Obito mentioning that retcon-vision isn't all that Izanagi can do. Also, the Rikudou Sennin could apparently use the Rinnegan to warp reality. It's how he made the bijuu out of the Juubi's chakra after all.

[arp2008]

The issue with the Moon Eye plan, beside the innately subjective "escapism is bad" angle, is that the people that die in the process of executing won't actually be brought back - it'll just look like they've been brought back.

Also, that it doesn't give people the choice of being in the illusion or not.

The lack of a choice given to people is probably what makes the plan seem so villainous.

YMMV, but violating free will on a global scale to fit what one or two guys consider "fair" isn't my idea of reasonable alternative to dealing with a world that often sucks. Its a lazy cop out that circumvents personal and societal growth and evolution in order to create a stagnant daydream in an act that manages to be simultaneously masturbatory and rapacious. Even Pain's crackpot scheme didn't force people to act against their natures.

Think there is actually a solution to the quandary both Naruto and Obito are facing in that they want to make a world without vengeance and hate? Or is such a world impossible given the evils people are capable of? In the dream world, such a world is possible.

[SSJLuffy]

Right now I'm thinking Madara and Obito actually have a shot at winning. Maybe they will win... or at least think they achieved their goal and keep everybody trapped in the dream world for a short amount of time because Naruto magically breaks out and whoops ass.

Honestly, I'm just interested to see how this dream world would be. Would there be actually two different worlds? The real world where everybody actually is and the dream world inside everyone's mind? Since basically everybody would be under a genjutsu.... oh god I'm getting an Inception vibe right now.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Hm, this line of reasoning is slowly changing Tobito from an all out jerk ass mofo into a misguided "ends justify the means" fallen hero archetype.

Nifty.

He's still a asshole though. Just like Itachi was an asshole.

Think there is actually a solution to the quandary both Naruto and Obito are facing in that they want to make a world without vengeance and hate? Or is such a world impossible given the evils people are capable of? In the dream world, such a world is possible.

Hi Arp. Haven't seen you for a while.

And just think about the word's used to describe Madara and Obito's ultimate goal. Dream world, illusion, genjutsu etc. It's not freaking real. Mankind doesn't achieve peace or anything of real worth. It's just some douchebag who manages to conquer the world by removing free will from everybody else. Everyone will be given everything that they want and nobody will be able to achieve anything under their own power. Thus removing any sense of actual worth from everything.

And in Obito's case he's doing it for selfish.

"A tragic event happened in my life so I'm going to force my will on the entire world so that I can pretend that it didn't happen."

Yeah well, grow the fuck up Obito. Grow the fuck up.

[arp2008]

He's still a asshole though. Just like Itachi was an asshole.

Hi Arp. Haven't seen you for a while.

And just think about the word's used to describe Madara and Obito's ultimate goal. Dream world, illusion, genjutsu etc. It's not freaking real. Mankind doesn't achieve peace or anything of real worth. It's just some douchebag who manages to conquer the world by removing free will from everybody else. Everyone will be given everything that they want and nobody will be able to achieve anything under their own power. Thus removing any sense of actual worth from everything.

And in Obito's case he's doing it for selfish.

"A tragic event happened in my life so I'm going to force my will on the entire world so that I can pretend that it didn't happen."

Yeah well, grow the fuck up Obito. Grow the fuck up.

Hey! You then have to ask yourself, though, if peace is even possible without the moons eye plan? Sure, the motivation behind it may be selfish but it's result can't be ignored. And knowing how tragic lives can be and have been for damn near most if not all of these characters and for people in our own world here, perhaps free will is the price that needs to be paid for a world without misery and war and innumerable needless loss. At times I think people don't deserve any more than what the moons eye plan offers for, as history so clearly tells us time and time and again, peace itself is just an illusion in it's own right and cannot be maintained when seemingly achieved. While some live lofty and high, others live lowly, unsightly lives and may even despise the former. Again, that cause and effect relationship Naruto thinks he can break is an adamantine law of the universe that cannot be stopped.

[Hazard]

"A tragic event happened in my life so I'm going to force my will on the entire world so that I can pretend that it didn't happen."

Yeah well, grow the fuck up Obito. Grow the fuck up.

How Harsh. Also, you're understating Obito's realization. It's not as simple as that. The guy has truly given up on this world. Let's face it Naruto world sucks in many ways.

In light of that, creating a new one is not really such a bad idea. Fake as it may be.

Again, that cause and effect relationship Naruto thinks he can break is an adamantine law of the universe that cannot be stopped.

It's alright Heroes are above such laws.

It's why they can be heroes. Or maybe it's the other way around.

Meh, same difference.

[The Dog]

How Harsh. Also, you're understating Obito's realization. It's not as simple as that. The guy has truly given up on this world. Let's face it Naruto world sucks in many ways.

In light of that, creating a new one is not really such a bad idea. Fake as it may be.

Really, compared to Gaara, Obito's a whiny little girl.

Obito: "My friend killed my crush!"

Gaara: "Yeah, well my uncle, the only person who ever showed me love and kindness in a village that openly despised and hated me tried to kill me, told me he hated me, and told me my mother hated me and cursed me with her final breathes. My father then tried to have me assassinated several times."

Obito: "Oh..."

Gaara: "But wait, it gets better. Apparently my mother and uncle DID love me, but my father forced him to tell me that and try to kill me. For a test."

Obito: "Oh yeah..."

Gaara: "I'll admit, I went crazy for a bit. But I was a kid, alone and confused. Naruto eventually helped me realize I needed to man the fuck up and make my life better with my own two hands. And you know what? I did. I became Kazekage and those people who despised the fact I was alive? They love me and would sacrifice themselves for me."

Obito: "..."

Gaara: "That's what I thought."

[Hazard]

Really, compared to Gaara, Obito's a whiny little girl.

Comparing misery is incredibly silly.

There is always someone who has it worse than you.

That doesn't make your pain irrelevant or even lesser.

Edit:

I'll also point out that saying 'Kakashi killed Rin' is misleading when talking about Obito.

If it were that simple his attitude towards Kakashi would be very different. It's more 'What the hell is this world where my best friends kills my crush?'

[Siriel]

Yeah, Obito's train of thought isn't "Well the world screwed me over so I'll destroy it!!", it's "This is a world where really fucked up things happen. I'm going to stop that.".

So really, pointing out that some people have had it worse than him is just going to make him even more determined.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Hey! You then have to ask yourself, though, if peace is even possible without the moons eye plan?

What kind of peace are we talking about here? Eternal peace, peace so that nobody fights with anybody over anything, perfect peace that everybody agrees with is the best that there ever was etc etc. Of course stuff like that isn't possible. Peace can be achieved but not the kind of perfect fantasy peace that Obito wants. That's just the kind of world that everybody lives in and you've just got to deal with it.

Sure, the motivation behind it may be selfish but it's result can't be ignored. And knowing how tragic lives can be and have been for damn near most if not all of these characters and for people in our own world here, perhaps free will is the price that needs to be paid for a world without misery and war and innumerable needless loss. At times I think people don't deserve any more than what the moons eye plan offers for, as history so clearly tells us time and time and again, peace itself is just an illusion in it's own right and cannot be maintained when seemingly achieved. While some live lofty and high, others live lowly, unsightly lives and may even despise the former. Again, that cause and effect relationship Naruto thinks he can break is an adamantine law of the universe that cannot be stopped.

You know another adamantine law of the universe?

"Nothing lasts forever."

One way or another the illusion would be broken. I don't know how or why but it won't hold forever. When people wake up they'll be confused, scared and angry as all hell and nothing anywhere will have been achieved except for one old douchebag getting to stroke his ego for conquering the world.

Yes, the world kind of sucks. That's why people try to fight it in various ways all over the world. That's the important thing. That people keep fighting the unwinnable battle. That's more real that throwing everybody into a pretend-world of sugar-clouds and lollipops.

I'm not even sure how the hell the thing would work. Like, would everybody be asleep during it all or will they just walk around like mindles zombies?

How Harsh. Also, you're understating Obito's realization. It's not as simple as that. The guy has truly given up on this world. Let's face it Naruto world sucks in many ways.

In light of that, creating a new one is not really such a bad idea. Fake as it may be.

Considering that Obito's realisation has led to the deaths of oh so many people, an entire village losing their leaders and part of Sasuke's general descent into madness I very much feel like being harsh on Obito is fairly justified.

Hell, if we're harsh on Sasuke (which we are and we should be) we can be harsh on Obito.

[Hazard]

Considering that Obito's realisation has led to the deaths of oh so many people, an entire village losing their leaders and part of Sasuke's general descent into madness I very much feel like being harsh on Obito is fairly justified.

Hell, if we're harsh on Sasuke (which we are and we should be) we can be harsh on Obito.

Oh, he's done horrible things. No question there.

Just saying 'grow up' is harsh because it doesn't fit. We can't say it is a childish outburst like we could with Sasuke who lashed out in rage for a good part of the manga. However you can't with Obito because he isn't lashing out in rage(He was totally lashing out against the Mist nin though).

If anything he's more like a jaded old man. Not a full pessimist like Nagato. But you can't quite call it apathetic either.

Circumstantial nihilist maybe?

[Totoro Man]

comparing misery isn't incredibly silly-- it's pretty unfair, but I don't think it's silly. that it would imply it lacks common sense-- is a trivial and senseless thing to do. I can compare my misery to other people and think "well, damn! my life isn't so bad". your implication is that only a person lacking in sound judgement could attempt such a comparison-- and I think that's being unfair. sometimes comparing misery is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Gaara certainly had to endure far more traumatic events than Obito-- but he also had a larger support network. and this is also failing to account for the fact that Madara was also most certainly mind-screwing Obito to get him to see his POV.

Gaara's birth caused his Mom to die-- so he's gotta feel responsible for that.

Gaara had an incredibly powerful monster sealed inside of him that prevented him from sleeping

Gaara's father tried to get him killed several times

Gaara's uncle tried to kill him -- Gaara kills the only person who ever showed kindness to him (in self defense, but even so, the guilt would be there).

Gaara gets killed by Akatsuki for the tailed beast inside of him.

Gaara's father, in zombie form, trolls him for being weak-- and then tells him that his mother loved him but that he had to be tested

Gaara has to kill his zombie father after said revelation

Gaara nearly gets killed by Madara

when you start adding things up Gaara has technically gone through a lot more awful crap than Obito-- it leads you to the belief that Gaara has exceptional inner strength. sure, you could say "Obito is a pussy-- look at what Gaara went through!" but that's kinda unfair given that Gaara has always been one of the most stoicly bad-ass characters in this manga. I agree that, when compared to Gaara, Obito comes off like a irresponsible crybaby-- but that's fine by me. I think Obito's transformation from proto-Naruto into the Big Bad's henchman is -mostly- satisfactory.

Obito's lack of courage combined with his bitter conviction makes a certain amount of sense... it makes sense when considering his entire character arc. the 4th Hokage gently scolded him for always making up excuses for letting his emtions get the better of him. I think I'd buy Obito's transformation more if we got a better backstory as to why Kakashi killed Rin (assuming that's true). when he declares that he's going to change the ninja world so that people don't have to go through that again-- that certainly sets up a precedent for what he's trying to do now.

I think Obito's transformation was kinda half-hearted compared to the other transformations we've seen in the series. no attempt was made to explain why Kakashi killed Rin-- we already know he wouldn't do it because he wanted her dead: he promised to protect her. he wouldn't do it for some frivolous personal reason. we don't know anything about why it happened. that's not something you can just gloss over. for all we know Madara could have used a genjutsu on Obito to convince him that Kakashi killed her-- the fact that Kakashi has literally no idea why Obito chose the path that he did makes me wonder if Madara is actively deceiving Obito to get his cooperation. if Kakashi -REALLY- killed Rin in the way that was shown he wouldn't be acting the way that he's been acting up until very recently-- he would realize "yeah, I killed one of our comrades-- Obito must have found out". I'm not thrilled with this massive Rin-shaped plot-hole we having going.

it would be nice if there were at least SOME sort of attempt to explain why Kakashi killed Rin-- as it seems to fly in the face of his character arc up to this point!