Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[The Drunkard Kid]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/581350.jpg/
Like that?

The cravat works well on him, but his normal form looks totally fae as well, if you know what I mean.

[The Dog]

Or that Muslims worship the same God and hold Jesus in extremely high regard as the second greatest prophet of God.

And during the Muslim apocalypse, Jesus, or Isa as the Qur'an calls him, descends from Heaven to join Al-Mahdi to battle Al-Dajjal, the Muslim Anti-Christ. He even gets to finish off Al-Dajjal in the valley of 'Ifiq'.

He then retires, gets married, and has a bunch of kids before dying and getting buried next to Muhammad.

So yeah, the Muslim religion holds Jesus in extremely high regard.

[flashdisk]

This just needs to be said. Christians really need to look at their Jewish ancestry a bit more. The development of a demonic/angelic hierarchy and it's forms and cosmology actually date back to the Babylonian exile and even earlier to their occupation in Kemet (Egypt.) Michael, Gabriel, seraphim, Ophanim, chalkydri... demons are all discussed in much broader detail in the book of Enoch, the Zohar and a host of other Jewish texts. There is a whole Jewish Hierarchy and mystical understanding of spirit beings that is left out when only modern roman catholic understanding of such things is discussed.

o

Well, for me personally, I'm not entirely devoid of knowledge of other perspectives on the angels, demons.

I've done a tiny bit of reading on the book of Enoch, him being thought the power of angels, how he became the angel Metatron for fighting of some egyptian sorcerors. The origin of the Watchers sometimes called the Grigori. I've also read of how some ancient teachers are said to have found ways to enter heaven.

But its not part of my system of belief. Just as the Deuteracanonicals aren't considered an essential part of the bible by some other Christian denominations and just as Islam doesn't consider the New Testament and Old Testament as essential as the Quran, many books such as the book of Enoch aren't included.

This does not mean I am not open to discuss them. And I do find the ideas and perspectives represented in their writings as fascinating.

I wouldn't describe trolls and stuff as fairies.* It depends a bit on which mythology you use, but in general I'm pretty sure they are their own type of beings.

*I don't like to spell it "faeries." That feels a bit too close to spelling magic as "magick."



Well, thing is, comparing them to anything from Abrahamic mythology doesn't really work. You really need to go all the way back to Norse mythology if you want to see some serious similarities.

Basically, youkai is a blanket term for basically any monsterous "supernatural being." They belong to the same basic type of creature as the kami - you could call them spirits, but that sorta suggests an incorporeal being, which isn't neccessarily the case in this type of mythology.

If you look at norse mythology, you might notice that the "gods", that is the Aesir and the Vanir, are just two prominent groups in a wider class of supernatural beings called "vættir", or wights. In fact, calling them gods isn't quite right because it gives the wrong impression, same way translating "kami" as "gods" isn't quite right because it includes beings who are not really that godly.

Following this line of thinking, I find that Japanese folklore is actually kinda similar to ours. There are being in Scandinavian/Germanic folklore who would fit right in with most typical youkai. For example, the näck (or neck, or nix) is a water creature who looks like an attractive man sitting in brooks playing the violin, causing passersby to drown by luring them into the water with his music. A female variant is the skogsrå (or huldra, in Norway) who resembles a woman but is really an inhuman spirit luring men deep into the woods.

Now compare that to the Japanese yuki-onna, for example.

Thing is, nobody around here would describe näcken as a "demon." He's in the same class of beings as trolls and fairies: oknytt, mystical creatures of nature who are dangerous to humans not out of malice but because they represent things that are dangerous in nature itself, like drowing in a brook or losing your way on a foggy night and stumbling into a bog. I tend to think of youkai sorta the same way.

Your mythology does seem to have similarities with those of the Japanese and related nations. If I'm not intruding, may I know if you are based in northern Europe?

In our folklore, fairies are kinda in-between - they're not quite the kind of really dangerous trixter beings you see in the Celtic traditions, but they're not quite harmless pixies either. They're mostly associated with fog and dancing on fields, and can curse humans with illness and misfortune if offended. Also, they can invite people to dance with them, but that's a very bad idea because apparently time runs faster in their realm so you'll get kind of a Twin Paradox problem once the fun is over.

I don't know if this was caused by cross pollination of ideas. But in the Philippines there are creatures known as dwende or dwarves. These creatures can either be helpful or harmful to humans. Some of these creatures are said to sometimes give a lot of good luck or prosperity to humans. But if you disturb their home, that can be in a form a mound of earth, they will exact vengeance on the perpetrator. That would include causing a part of that person to swell. There have also been stories of people's souls being taken by these creatures into their realm, even against their will. An example of this happening is when said creature falls in love with a human woman.

[Omegastorm]

Or that Muslims worship the same God and hold Jesus in extremely high regard as the second greatest prophet of God.

At least that lead to some hilariously soulcrushing political rants.

We haven't even talked much about Sufis and how they differ from the more literal minded brothers and sisters.

o

[Omegastorm]

Well, for me personally, I'm not entirely devoid of knowledge of other perspectives on the angels, demons.

I've done a tiny bit of reading on the book of Enoch, him being thought the power of angels, how he became the angel Metatron for fighting of some egyptian sorcerors. The origin of the Watchers sometimes called the Grigori. I've also read of how some ancient teachers are said to have found ways to enter heaven.

But its not part of my system of belief. Just as the Deuteracanonicals aren't considered an essential part of the bible by some other Christian denominations and just as Islam doesn't consider the New Testament and Old Testament as essential as the Quran, many books such as the book of Enoch aren't included.

This does not mean I am not open to discuss them. And I do find the ideas and perspectives represented in their writings as fascinating.

It's good to meet a Christian that is actually aware of their ancient Jewish roots. It's rare. The average Christian believes that their cosmology either started 200 or 2000 years ago. I tend to prefer the earlier legends because they tend to be closer to the sources of earlier faith practices like Zoroastrianism and reflect central tenets that can be found in other faith practices.

o

[flashdisk]

]It's good to meet a Christian that is actually aware of their ancient Jewish roots. It's rare. [/B]The average Christian believes that their cosmology either started 200 or 2000 years ago. I tend to prefer the earlier legends because they tend to be closer to the sources of earlier faith practices like Zoroastrianism and reflect central tenets that can be found in other faith practices.

o

I think this really depends on the social circles one lives in. Learning of things that came before and finding the relationships between different beliefs takes a bit of legwork, that many may be too busy or uninterested to do. I don't see anything wrong with that considering that they have to pay the bills and take care of their own.


But it was nice to have read a bit of other beliefs.









Now that we are in the subject of mythology, faeiries and other creatures of the supernatural. I'd like to introduce you all to some I find interesting.


The Tikbalang. A creature with a humanoid body but a horse head.

Tikbalangs are said to scare travelers and lead them astray. Tikbalangs play tricks on travelers such that they keep on returning to an arbitrary path no matter how far he goes or where he turns. Supposedly this is counteracted by wearing one's shirt inside out.[3] Another countermeasure is to ask permission out loud to pass by or, not to produce too much noise while in the woods in order not to offend or disturb the tikbalang.

A superstition popular with the Tagalog of Rizal Province is that Tikbalangs are benevolent guardians of elemental kingdoms. They are usually found standing at the foot of large trees looking around for anyone who dare to bestow malignancy on their kingdom's territory.

A common saying has it that rain from a clear sky means Kinasal na si Irene.(Filipino, "a tikbalang is getting married".)[3] This was most likely derived from a similar Spanish proverb that claimed a witch was getting married when there was rain on a sunny day.

According to traditional folklore, the tikbalang can also transform itself into human form or turn invisible to humans. They like to lead travelers astray.[1]

Tikbalang are generally associated with dark, sparsely populated, foliage-overgrown areas, with legends variously identifying their abode as being beneath bridges, in Bamboo or Banana groves, and atop Kalumpang[4] or Balete trees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikbalang

http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/tikbalang.html



The Kapre. It is a creature that lurks on top of large trees smoking some sort of cigar. It is a giant Just like the dwende I stated previously, the kapre is said to provide some good luck to those its in good terms with. There were some stories of the kapre walking on people's roofs during the night. Thus causing the sound of footsteps.

Kapres are said to dwell in big trees like acacias, mangoes, bamboo and banyan (known in the Philippines as balete). It is also mostly seen sitting under those trees. The Kapre is said to wear the indigenous Northern Philippine loincloth known as bahag, and according to some, often wears a belt which gives the kapre the ability to be invisible to humans. In some versions, the kapre is supposed to hold a magical white stone, a little smaller in size than a quail egg. Should any person happen to obtain this stone, the kapre could grant wishes.
[edit] Behavior

Kapres are not necessarily considered to be evil, unlike the manananggal. Kapres may make contact with people to offer friendship, or if it is attracted to a woman. If a Kapre befriends any human, especially because of love, the Kapre will consistently follow its "love interest" throughout life. Also, if one is a friend of the Kapre then that person has the ability to see it and if they were to sit on it then any other person could see it.

Kapres are also said to play pranks on people, frequently making travelers become disoriented and lose their way in the mountains or in the woods. They are also believe to have the ability to confuse people even in their own familiar surroundings; for instance, someone who forgets that they are in their own garden or home is said to have been tricked by a Kapre. Reports of experiencing Kapre enchantment include that of witnessing rustling tree branches, even if the wind is not strong. Some more examples would be hearing loud laughter coming from an unseen being, witnessing lots of smoke from the top of a tree, seeing big fiery eyes during night time from a tree, as well as actually seeing a Kapre walking in forested areas. It is also believed that abundant fireflies in woody areas are the embers from the Kapre's lit tobacco pipe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapre


Now there's the Manangal. Its usually depicted as human who's other half would sprout wings and split from the rest of its body. If my memory serves me right it is said to have its tongue lengthen. It would then use the tongue in some way(like a probscis) to devour unborn infants by puncturing the mothers womb by ripping through the belly button.

The manangal is said to be frightening creature with talon like claws and who emits a 'tik tik' sound. In some stories I've heard it is said that the sound grows softer as it comes closer and louder as it goes farther away. Hence people who think that the creature has left are fooled by the creature and leave themselves vulnerable to attack. In some stories the mananggal also uses a strange oil that prevents the body of the creature from being held.

I think I remember stories of the creature attacking a man riding a tricycle. There are other stories of the husband awakening to see the mananggal trying to feed on the unborn child in his wife's womb. He then grapples with the tongue and and slices it off with a machete.

It is said the way to finally defeat a manangal is to find its lower half and poison it with salt and some herbs. The upper half would then be unable to reconnect with it when the sun rises and it burns.

A manananggal is described as being a hideous, scary vampire-like creature (as opposed to an aswang), capable of severing its upper torso in order to fly into the night with huge bat-like wings to prey on unsuspecting, pregnant women in their homes; using an elongated proboscis-like tongue, it sucks the hearts of fetuses or the blood of an unsuspecting, sleeping victim. The severed lower torso is left standing, and it is said to be the more vulnerable of the two halves. Sprinkling salt or smearing crushed garlic or ash on top of the standing torso is fatal to the creature. The upper torso then would not be able to rejoin and will die at daybreak. The name of the creature originates from sinalalala used for a severed torso: manananggal comes from the Tagalog tanggal (cognate of Malay tanggal), which means "to remove" or "to separate". Manananggal then means "the one who separates itself" (in this case, separates itself from its lower body). It is a saying that a manananggal's attack can be avoided by death. The most prominent characteristic of a manananggal is its ability to dispatch its torso from its legs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manananggal

[The Ultimate One]

What does any of this have to do with Naruto?

[Siriel]

This is kind of a Naruto thread. I mean, I get that thread drifts are inevitable, but this is a tad extreme.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Very well.

I do hope that we'll return to the kage vs. Madara fight soon. And of course that they'll be the ones to beat him.

[master of read]

What does any of this have to do with Naruto?

thread thrifts happen. just something you gotta get use to. but yes, its gone on long enough.


to help us get back on track, killer bee, bust a rhyme, dawg.

[Siriel]

Very well.

I do hope that we'll return to the kage vs. Madara fight soon. And of course that they'll be the ones to beat him.

Sorry to say, they all got beaten offscreen.

But it was totally awesome.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Sorry to say, they all got beaten offscreen.

But it was totally awesome.

And Itachi has already bitch-slapped Kabuto into the ground.

He hasn't stopped the zombies because all the fighting is clearly helping to solidify the bonds of the alliance.

And that's how you help build peace. By hurting people.

[DattaBoy]

Does Kishimoto plan on ending the manga any time soon.
? I demand intricate back stories on the rest of the villages... I.e cloud, mist and rock

I mean at one point Kumo had like five jinkuri level fighters why did they not troll the rest of the ninja world?

Mist is just bloody but why? And who are the new seven swordsmen of the mist?

And I don't know anything about rock....

[Len Ikari145]

Does Kishimoto plan on ending the manga any time soon?

Everything that's happening right now is building up to the final endgame of the manga. Going by the pacing and story developments in the last few chapters, I personally think Naruto's going end sometime next year.

[DattaBoy]

So the chance of a Part 3 is kind of slim then?