Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[master of read]

See... if he was a real demon he wouldn't be able to feel love for her in the first place.

Uh oh.... I'm starting to do that circle thing again.

Sure I can.... and do.

Look, I know it's fiction and if the writer wants a demon to be good he can make a demon good.

If he wants to call a hammer a sword then..... a hammer is now a sword regardless of what it actually is. He's the writer.

But I don't have to like or accept it, and I don't. So.... likewise I no longer accept the tailed beasts as demons. I'll just think of them as.... I don't know, bit beasts or something. *shrug*




Also.... I want to apologize for any thread derail this may have caused. My bad.

so unless a demon is a utterly and totally evil, we cant call it a demon because it flies in the face of some silly preconception that they are totally evil beings?

yeah and black people live only to rape white women, do drugs, commit crimes, and genetically the most inferior race on the planet.

[Holy Spirit]

Not to mention that it's said that God in the Bible believes that Satan is capable of being redeemed and awaits for him to ask for forgivenss, so yeah, even the Lord of Darkness may not be 100% evil (more like 99.999999999%).

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo now that you mention it. I do vaguely remember hearing something like that. Although.... I believe the devil says "no". So...... yeah.

But still, I will have to remember to look into this......


Musn't. Let. Laziness. Prevail!

[Hazard]

Uh, Evil Angels *are* demons, though. That's how demons came to be.

The muddled part is that you said that demons are evil by nature, meaning that they are born that way and were NEVER capable of anything else. But since most demons are born of beings that already have free will, and thus *choose* to be that way, you can't say that "by nature, they are evil." That's the contradiction that I'm arguing against you on, no one is born absolutely good or evil as the Bible(and life experience) teaches us. Not to mention that it's said that God in the Bible believes that Satan is capable of being redeemed and awaits for him to ask for forgivenss, so yeah, even the Lord of Darkness may not be 100% evil (more like 99.999999999%).

Adding a bit to this, even in the Bible, demon (who are jerks mind you) encounters still have stuff like "And this guy was totally killing this female's husbands because he loved her". Yes love. Imagine that. And the whole legion encounter is essentially Legion going "Please, please don't sent me back to Hell." and Jesus giving him permission to take over the pigs (granted the pigs then rampaged and drowned but whatever).

That's not even getting into the New Testament's entire thing being loving your enemies and reaching out to people that might as well be public enemy number one (like tax collectors, I hate those guys, and taxes. Damn taxes).

Also.... I want to apologize for any thread derail this may have caused. My bad.

Meh, don't worry about it.

[Len Ikari145]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooo now that you mention it. I do vaguely remember hearing something like that. Although.... I believe the devil says "no". So...... yeah.

Yeeeeah, but considering God knows us better than we know ourselves(y'know, considering he created and knows EVERYTHING), I'd at least consider it.

I wouldn't hold my breath about it myself, but hey, it's there and part of being religious (in my case: Christian) is holding to the belief that anyone can be capable of redemption if they want it enough and that the chance is always there for them to take.

[Ebon Phantom]

Madara's words about the Bijuus being slaves to those with blessed eyes is hopefully a hint by Kishi that he hasn't forgotten the Byakugan and that maybe it'll play some sort of role with the Sharingan and Rinnegan.

[Hazard]

Madara's words about the Bijuus being slaves to those with blessed eyes is hopefully a hint by Kishi that he hasn't forgotten the Byakugan and that maybe it'll play some sort of role with the Sharingan and Rinnegan.

I actually laughed a little.

Honestly, given the type of guy Madara seems to be, I would assume he is talking about his eyes. That said, it would be nice if the other eyes got involved as well

[master of read]

I actually laughed a little.

Honestly, given the type of guy Madara seems to be, I would assume he is talking about his eyes. That said, it would be nice if the other eyes got involved as well

me too. the byakugan isnt getting any more attention than it is now.

[Holy Spirit]

so unless a demon is a utterly and totally evil, we cant call it a demon because it flies in the face of some silly preconception that they are totally evil beings?

Who is we? I'm talking about me. You're asking me what I think. I'm not calling it a demon unless I actually think it's a demon.

The author can call them jelly beans for all I care.... doesn't mean I see it that way.

yeah and black people live only to rape white women, do drugs, commit crimes, and genetically the most inferior race on the planet.

Oh, come now.

[Len Ikari145]

Madara's words about the Bijuus being slaves to those with blessed eyes is hopefully a hint by Kishi that he hasn't forgotten the Byakugan and that maybe it'll play some sort of role with the Sharingan and Rinnegan.

I hope that's the case. I imagine that the ability will relate to shutting down/neutralizing the Bijuu's chakra(if we considering the Jyuken as an extension of the Byakugan).

[Nik Hasta]

If I may interject; where is the is assumption that demons are fallen angels coming from?

The majority of this idea is taken from Milton's rather famous Paradise Lost and actually has very little scriptural backing.

The most we get is a reference in Luke that Lucifer "fell like lightning from Heaven," but that's no implication of an angelic origin, as we can see from the book of Job; Lucifer is more than capable of visiting Heaven as and when he wishes to so that could just as easily be in reference to God ejecting him from the premises.

Beyond Luke, we get a couple of passages in Ezekiel that could be read in that way if you choose to interpret it so but are much more likely referring to the fall of man which is a more pertinent issue to the intended readers of the Bible.

So... no, as far as the Christian definition goes, demons are not definitively fallen angels by any stretch of the imagination.

To comment on Holy Spirit's black and white view of the world, well that's what you get when you follow a doctrine that explicitly teaches and reinforces the idea...

Well... as long as you ignore that rather central bit to the Christian faith. Y'know, that bit about how redemption is really important and that God apparently loves the world and all living things without reservation so there is certainly a case to be made that divine redemption would not be beyond the purview of a demon, origins and malign purposes not withstanding.

And that said I personally think that a black and white view is a dangerous, uninformed and quite frankly out-dated method of viewing the world but that'd be one of the many reasons I departed the Christian faith and that's neither here nor there.

...

So, how about them Bijuu, eh?

[flashdisk]

Wow. This discussion is like a race car. Is this the new Naruto thread?


Anyway, I think different religions, nations, ethnicities have different definitions, terms and ideas for certain things.

So when translating one into another they're not going to totally match.

In Catholicism(or my limited understanding of its ideas), a demon is defined as a fallen angel. An angel that has turned evil. There isn't a middle ground, because if it was good it would be an angel and if its evil it's called a demon. I don't think these spirits suddenly changed into different species, at least in the way we understand them.

Demons are fallen angels under the command of Satan, those who are still free after the Gen. 6 affair. Satan is called the Prince, or Ruler, of all demons in Matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15. Demons are also called the ministers, or ambassadors of Satan, Luke 4:35; 9:1,42; John 10:21. Satan is brilliant, an administrative genius. He has an excellent organization, mentioned in Eph. 6:10-12 (READ) The Bible also makes a distinction between demon possession and demon influence.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php



The idea of demons being fallen angels is an interpretation from the book of revalations chapter 12. I think its verse 7.

"Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, who fought back with his angels. But the dragon was defeated and he and his angels were not allowed to stay in heaven any longer. The huge dragon was thrown out-that ancient serpent, named the devil, or satan, taht decieved the whole world. He was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with hin

Revalations chapter 12, verse four. But I think there are other interesting tidbits in the whole chapter 12.




I think that's why it's pointed out in some scriptures that 'man will judge the angels'. Or something like that. It doesn't mean those angels that didn't fall. It means the angels that did.

Well that's for one religion anyway. Hence the current creatures in many anime and manga don't really fit the concepts, terms of catholic religion.

Some believe that one day even the worse demons can be redeemed, hence becoming angels again. I think its by some other religions that I have forgotten(Oh its the Unification Church). From my understanding, the reason why some religions believe that demons won't be redeemed is because they did so out of full understanding of the consequence of their actions. Also there was Saint Gregory of Nyssa who theorized that there might be some sort of universal reconciliation.

I'll add more ideas from different religions as well. Or maybe add some more info after doing a bit more research.

[Hazard]

So you're Catholic too?

If so, you gain 100 cool points.

Because us Catholics are awesome.

[Holy Spirit]

That's not even getting into the New Testament's entire thing being loving your enemies and reaching out to people that might as well be public enemy number one (like tax collectors, I hate those guys, and taxes. Damn taxes).

That's really what it's all about. I just want to be clear that I don't put humans and demons in the same ballpark at all.

Yeeeeah, but considering God knows us better than we know ourselves(y'know, considering he created and knows EVERYTHING), I'd at least consider it.

Food for thought.

I wouldn't hold my breath about it myself, but hey, it's there and part of being religious (in my case: Christian) is holding to the belief that anyone can be capable of redemption if they want it enough and that the chance is always there for them to take.

Wooooo Hooo! Christian!!! *High Fives*


Edit:Ok... now I'm done with the derailing for sure...... unless somebody responds to me.

[Nik Hasta]

In Catholicism(or my limited understanding of its ideas), a demon is defined as a fallen angel.

Looking at the quotes listed in your post, there is no reference in them to demons being fallen angels. So if Catholicism is preaching that as truth, they're not basing it on the bible.

[flashdisk]

Looking at the quotes listed in your post, there is no reference in them to demons being fallen angels. So if Catholicism is preaching that as truth, they're not basing it on the bible.

The dragon in revalation is actually stated to be 'Satan'. And is linked with the following verses.

Demons are fallen angels under the command of Satan, those who are still free after the Gen. 6 affair. Satan is called the Prince, or Ruler, of all demons in Matthew 9:34; 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15. Demons are also called the ministers, or ambassadors of Satan, Luke 4:35; 9:1,42; John 10:21. Satan is brilliant, an administrative genius. He has an excellent organization, mentioned in Eph. 6:10-12 (

http://www.catholic.org/saints/angel.php

Also, making statements such as

So if Catholicism is preaching that as truth, they're not basing it on the bible.

is a big assumption considering I am just a novice on the topics.

That also reminds me to take into consideration the documents written by what many consider 'saints'.

So you're Catholic too?

If so, you gain 100 cool points.

Because us Catholics are awesome.

Yes, I am Catholic.