Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion IV

[Hazard]

Ha I got the last post in the other thread!

Also, I wanted to answer this post earlier but forgot about it:

A bit of fun now that we're at the 4th ninja world war's endgame:

Let's Rank the Konoha 11(plus sasuke!) in order of strongest to weakest!

I'll split my list into tiers too.

Top Tier:
Naruto
Sasuke

DAMN Tier:
Neji
Shikamaru
Choji
Rock Lee

Mid Tier:
Shino
Sakura
Hinata
Sai

Bottom Tier:
Ino
Kiba
Tenten

Naruto and Sasuke being on the top is a given. After that I'd say

Chouji (Butterfly Mode is crazy strong)
Lee (This depends on how good he has gotten at opening the gates on the fly, if he is at least half as good as Gai he should be here though)
Sakura (Yes, I am putting her here. Good striking power, poison, speed, medical skills, etc.)
Neji (He hasn't shown much, but he is a jounin, wish he could have a full fights scene though)
Sai (the guy is surprisingly versatile for someone whose only trick is using ink animals)
Shikamaru
Hinata
Shino(honestly, these thee are interchangeable. Shikamaru would probably win in a fight against Hinata and lose against Shino, but it doesn't mean much)
Kiba
Tenten (the sorrow of not having screen time)

Ino (Variable)

Ino is an odd one. She is skilled enough to use Chouji's body to fight Asuma (granted he may not have been going all out), she can hit hard enough to knock out a White Zetsu, etc. She's not really weak. What makes her hard to place though is that how useful she is varies depending on the opponent or situation.

For example, against Kinkaku she is infinitely more useful that Sakura could ever be.

Edit: Actually, thinking about it, Sai may even be above Neji.

[Holy Spirit]

Meh. I'll just keep calling them bijuu and be happy with it.

...so you're saying that you can't see anything called a demon as benevolent?

Sorta.... but the other way around.

I can't see anything benevolent as being a demon because being evil is what makes a demon, a demon. They can look like anything... be smart, cunning or stupid, big/small, old/young the only real common thread is a being of pure evil.

In other words for me demon = evil spirit. If it's not evil then it's not a demon. If the word is to have any meaning then there must be some quality attached to it and for me that quality is evil.


The same way..... the author calling a hammer a sword bothers some people.

[The Dog]

after the time skip, she becomes a beast of a ninja and a damn impressive medic. she makes some mistakes, (one in particular) but overall, her character has evolved from her early whiny bitch days.

Please don't say that, you're making her sound useful. We all know she's still pretty much completely useless after the Rescue Kazekage arc, except for defeating cannon fodder enemies and requiring someone to rescue her from any named ninja...

Which is still above her pre-timeskip days. But really, that's not that hard.

And she doesn't even have a character arc, but a character circle. She starts her character arc wanting to grow and be able to stand beside Sasuke and Naruto like an equal, instead of being behind them staring at their backs.

She ends her character arc... deciding she's going to stand behind Naruto and Sasuke staring at their backs. Which makes all her training and character growth...

...wait for it...

...wait for it...

Completely meaningless, considering she ended up right where she started.

[Len Ikari145]

Sorta.... but the other way around.

I can't see anything benevolent as being a demon because being evil is what makes a demon, a demon. They can look like anything... be smart, cunning or stupid, big/small, old/young the only real common thread is a being of pure evil.

In other words for me demon = evil spirit. If it's not evil then it's not a demon. If the word is to have any meaning then there must be some quality attached to it and for me that quality is evil.


The same way..... the author calling a hammer a sword bothers some people.

So, by your definition, you wouldn't consider Chrono from Chrono Crusade or Dante from Devil May Cry to be "true demons" since they're protagonists with good morals and fight for the side of justice, despite being denizens of Hell (or in Dante's case, being a partial spawn of a denizen of Hell who also "fought the good fight")?

Is this more or less accurate (not trying to mock ya, I actually wanna see if I have your perception down)?

[master of read]

Please don't say that, you're making her sound useful. We all know she's still pretty much completely useless after the Rescue Kazekage arc, except for defeating cannon fodder enemies and requiring someone to rescue her from any named ninja...

Which is still above her pre-timeskip days. But really, that's not that hard.

And she doesn't even have a character arc, but a character circle. She starts her character arc wanting to grow and be able to stand beside Sasuke and Naruto like an equal, instead of being behind them staring at their backs.

She ends her character arc... deciding she's going to stand behind Naruto and Sasuke staring at their backs. Which makes all her training and character growth...

...wait for it...

...wait for it...

Completely meaningless, considering she ended up right where she started.

say what you want about her but she's still better than her days in part 1.

[The Dog]

say what you want about her but she's still better than her days in part 1.

I agree, but that's really not saying much, considering her entire combat repertoire pretty much consisted of 'hold kunai at a low-ready position and hope opponent impales him/herself on it', 'stand back and watch Kakashi, Naruto, and Sasuke do all the work', and of course 'get trapped and require a useful character to save her'.

Though that last one was only seen during the second part of the Chunin exams and the Gaara fight toward the end of the "Sand/Sound Invasion" arc.

[master of read]

Sorta.... but the other way around.

I can't see anything benevolent as being a demon because being evil is what makes a demon, a demon. They can look like anything... be smart, cunning or stupid, big/small, old/young the only real common thread is a being of pure evil.

In other words for me demon = evil spirit. If it's not evil then it's not a demon. If the word is to have any meaning then there must be some quality attached to it and for me that quality is evil.


The same way..... the author calling a hammer a sword bothers some people.

so you're saying that a demon, regardless of his deeds or intentions, are by their very nature pure evil?

make sure you dont tell YYH kurama's mom that.

[Holy Spirit]

So, by your definition, you wouldn't consider Chrono from Chrono Crusade or Dante from Devil May Cry to be "true demons" since they're protagonists with good morals and fight for the side of justice, despite being denizens of Hell (or in Dante's case, being a partial spawn of a denizen of Hell who also "fought the good fight")?

Is this more or less accurate (not trying to mock ya, I actually wanna see if I have your perception down)?

The main difference I see is in choice. Or rather.... the ability to choose.

Evil aliens, humans, and other such beings may be heartless and cruel but they choose to be that way. They may never be good but at least it's possible. What sets a demon apart is that they are evil just by the very nature of what they are. They are made of it, they can't be anything else because they are literally a spirit of pure evil. It's like asking fire to be cold.


So.... to your examples. Is Chrono a real demon?.... No. I'm not a fan of his look but at the end of the day.... he's a demon in name only. A pretender. A real demon you... wouldn't want to meet.

Dante is.... tricky. I've never played the games but from what I understand he is half human, yes? If so..... I would attribute any goodness in him to his human side. In other words... he may very well be a half demon but the human side gives him the power to resist his other side.

[Holy Spirit]

so you're saying that a demon, regardless of his deeds or intentions, are by their very nature pure evil?

make sure you dont tell YYH kurama's mom that.

I'm saying it's their nature that makes them evil, so there won't be any good deeds or intentions in the first place. At least, not for it's own sake.

I'm not saying they won't do good things to earn your trust to set you up for a fall down the road..... pretending to be good. But ultimately it's to either destroy you or gain something.

[Hazard]

Dante is.... tricky. I've never played the games but from what I understand he is half human, yes? If so..... I would attribute any goodness in him to his human side. In other words... he may very well be a half demon but the human side gives him the power to resist his other side.

Dante's dad, Sparda, on the other hand is a full demon and he kind of saved the world.

And honestly, even getting a bit into religion and myth the back-story of a lot of demons is them choosing to be evil, rather than being evil by nature.

[Holy Spirit]

Dante's dad, Sparda, on the other hand is a full demon and he kind of saved the world.

Then I would put him in the same boat as Chrono.

And honestly, even getting a bit into religion and myth the back-story of a lot of demons is them choosing to be evil, rather than being evil by nature.

What do you think a demon is?

[Len Ikari145]

The main difference I see is in choice. Or rather.... the ability to choose.

Evil aliens, humans, and other such beings may be heartless and cruel but they choose to be that way. They may never be good but at least it's possible. What sets a demon apart is that they are evil just by the very nature of what they are. They are made of it, they can't be anything else because they are literally a spirit of pure evil. It's like asking fire to be cold.


So.... to your examples. Is Chrono a real demon?.... No. I'm not a fan of his look but at the end of the day.... he's a demon in name only. A pretender. A real demon you... wouldn't want to meet.

Dante is.... tricky. I've never played the games but from what I understand he is half human, yes? If so..... I would attribute any goodness in him to his human side. In other words... he may very well be a half demon but the human side gives him the power to resist his other side.

Yeah, but when you attribute that philosophy to Judeo-Christian terms, it doesn't hold well. For example, Angels are supposed to be purity incarnate and supposedly incapable of emotions like hate, jealousy, or any malignant intentions.

Until we get to Samael, Lucifer and a few other Angels mentioned in the Bible who betrayed God and hold scorn for humanity, thus were cast out Heaven and became Devils (or in Lucifer's case, THE Devil). Then you realize that anything with a soul(and thus a will) doesn't conform to one side or another. Hell, when you consider that most demons spoken of in religion are either fallen angels or humans whose sins were too great, you realize just how muddled the concept of a demon really is.

To me, the difference between an evil human and a demon is that a human has several opportunities to change his/her life way of life for better or worse depending on innumerable variables(upbringing, environment, company, etc) while a demon, who's born to Hell, doesn't have the same kind of chance, thus only knows how to do evil (especially when you're being ruled over by the Prince of Darkness himself). The same can be said of Angels, in that they were created in Heaven by God, thus only know how to do good (but doesn't mean they are incapable of feeling or doing anything that opposes their nature).

So, to me, Good, Evil, or the middleground, is all about choice, no matter who or what you are. The main differences between humans and the aforementioned ethereal beings, is that we're born in a world where we experience the elements of both realms.

Dante's dad, Sparda, on the other hand is a full demon and he kind of saved the world.

And honestly, even getting a bit into religion and myth the back-story of a lot of demons is them choosing to be evil, rather than being evil by nature.

Chrono was also a pure devil who wanted to protect the world and cared about humans(he was essentially the demon equivalent of Vash and Kenshin, though not quite as pacifistic). Heck, he fell in love with one...twice.

[master of read]

I'm saying it's their nature that makes them evil, so there won't be any good deeds or intentions in the first place. At least, not for it's own sake.

I'm not saying they won't do good things to earn your trust to set you up for a fall down the road..... pretending to be good. But ultimately it's to either destroy you or gain something.

and why should their nature matter if they are evil or not? kurama was a murderous thief who hid in a pregnant human to regain his strength. in the end, he loved that woman like his real mother and would do whatever it took to make her happy. and he really has nothing to gain from doing it. he just loves her.

so you cant make such a blanket statement saying all demons are evil and if they aren't evil, they aren't demons. the most famous example of this is sensui and we know what happened to him.

[Len Ikari145]

and why should their nature matter if they are evil or not? kurama was a murderous thief who hid in a pregnant human to regain his strength. in the end, he loved that woman like his real mother and would do whatever it took to make her happy. and he really has nothing to gain from doing it. he just loves her.

so you cant make such a blanket statement saying all demons are evil and if they aren't evil, they aren't demons. the most famous example of this is sensui and we know what happened to him.

Ain't it funny how a Naruto discussion has somehow erupted into a huge philosophical debate about the nature of demons?

[Hazard]

What do you think a demon is?

Huh? Never really thought about defining the word. So lets see...

If I say it is something always evil by nature it wouldn't feel right.

If it say it is something always good by nature it wouldn't feel right.

If I say it is something that has to have been an angel it wouldn't feel right.

If I say it is something that never has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

If I say it is something that always has to come from Hell it wouldn't feel right.

So I guess, I am open about this. If the author wants to call something demon I am likely to just roll with it.

Edit: Wait, I got it. A demon is something like a human.

Edit2: Wait no, a demon may be wholly unlike a human and I'd still be fine with it.