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  1. #286
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Would you really consider shang the best empty handed martial artist? I ask this not for debate of who is the best but in his classic series Shang was always using weapons to great effect. Many of his classic battle with The Cat consisted of both of them using weapons. In a more recent team up where Wolverine goes to Shang for training, Shang tools Logan with weapons. My point is that when Shang picks up a weapon, he is an even more effective combatant.
    For me, if the playing field were even, with none of the other street level Marvel Universe fighters having any of their weapons or enhancements (i.e. Cap's shield, Daredevil's billy club, Danny's iron fist), Shang could beat them empty handed. Still, take that with a grain of salt. I haven't read all of Shang's appearances and am only going on an off-handed compliment that Black Widow gave Shang back during the Marvel Knights series and a gut feeling.

    Still, I do stand corrected in you saying that Shang is more effective in using weapons. I had forgotten that Shang's use of weapons had always been part of his character and shouldn't detract from him.
    "I am a man of peace."
    "A man of peace who fights like ten tigers."

  2. #287
    Mario Di Giacomo mdg1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Would you really consider shang the best empty handed martial artist? I ask this not for debate of who is the best but in his classic series Shang was always using weapons to great effect. Many of his classic battle with The Cat consisted of both of them using weapons. In a more recent team up where Wolverine goes to Shang for training, Shang tools Logan with weapons. My point is that when Shang picks up a weapon, he is an even more effective combatant.
    My concern (triggered by Avengers #2) is that Hickman will write Shang-Chi in such a way that whatever enhancements Stark gives him become a crutch. He has a tendency to fall in love with his own ideas, to the detriment of characterization.
    Mario Di Giacomo

  3. #288
    Senior Member taozen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    For me, if the playing field were even, with none of the other street level Marvel Universe fighters having any of their weapons or enhancements (i.e. Cap's shield, Daredevil's billy club, Danny's iron fist), Shang could beat them empty handed. Still, take that with a grain of salt. I haven't read all of Shang's appearances and am only going on an off-handed compliment that Black Widow gave Shang back during the Marvel Knights series and a gut feeling.

    Still, I do stand corrected in you saying that Shang is more effective in using weapons. I had forgotten that Shang's use of weapons had always been part of his character and shouldn't detract from him.
    I did not mean that Shang's use of weapons were a crutch but that he was even more bad@$$ with them.

  4. #289
    Senior Member NamorsTrident's Avatar
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    Not to derail the current discussion but I hope whatever tech Hickman/Stark gave Shang equals some kind of personal force field. That's the only thing I could think of that wouldn't totally take away from the character.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamorsTrident View Post
    Not to derail the current discussion but I hope whatever tech Hickman/Stark gave Shang equals some kind of personal force field. That's the only thing I could think of that wouldn't totally take away from the character.
    I'd have to disagree. A personal force field definitely takes away from the essence of Shang's character, because one crucial aspect of martial arts is defense. Shang can dodge/deflect bullets, and even use his chi to absorb overwhelming attacks (to a certain degree). Giving him a force field would be way too much of a crutch and is liable to make him known for being "the guy with the force field".

    We'll find out eventually, but in my opinion this is what Stark's "enhancements" for Shang should be: An incredibly lightweight outfit that also offers some protective properties, vibranium bracers for both defense and offense, and a variety of oriental weapons (katars, katana, dao, nunchucku, meteor hammer, etc) either crafted from vibranium or infused with technology.

  6. #291
    Senior Member taozen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    I'd have to disagree. A personal force field definitely takes away from the essence of Shang's character, because one crucial aspect of martial arts is defense. Shang can dodge/deflect bullets, and even use his chi to absorb overwhelming attacks (to a certain degree). Giving him a force field would be way too much of a crutch and is liable to make him known for being "the guy with the force field".

    We'll find out eventually, but in my opinion this is what Stark's "enhancements" for Shang should be: An incredibly lightweight outfit that also offers some protective properties, vibranium bracers for both defense and offense, and a variety of oriental weapons (katars, katana, dao, nunchucku, meteor hammer, etc) either crafted from vibranium or infused with technology.
    How can Shang dodge and/or deflect bullets if he is normal and does not have any powers? Just asking?

    I personally believe Shang needs something to bump him up to the next level in terms of popularity. So that we can see him more in comics. I do not mean tech but just move him away from being a Bruce Lee clone. He was always a espionage agent so maybe an update on that premise. I would personally go the way of what Fraction/Brubaker did for Iron Fist. Just put him in a world of martial art giants but give Shang his unique angle in that area.
    Last edited by taozen; 12-23-2012 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    How can Shang dodge and/or deflect bullets if he is normal and does not have any powers? Just asking?
    He's just that fast. Since the MOKF days, he's been able to dodge fire from automatic weapons and deflect bullets at close range using his bracers. Keep in mind comic book martial artists aren't "peak human" in the real world sense. Hell, Shang's tanked a punch from a Hulk-level alien. He ripped apart a Doombot with his bare hands and can easily kick down a reinforced steel door, or even through an aircraft hull.

    I personally believe Shang needs something to bump him up to the next level in terms of popularity. So that we can see him more in comics. I do not mean tech but just move him away from being a Bruce Lee clone. He was always a espionage agent so maybe an update on that premise. I would personally go the way of what Fraction/Brubaker did for Iron Fist. Just put him in a world of martial art giants but give Shang his unique angle in that area.
    You're right. Shang was always a cross of Bruce Lee and James Bond, and that's how I like him to be portrayed as well. Secret Avengers definitely did that idea some justice, but as long as he's on the Avengers proper, I think his martial arts badassery will need to take precedence over his super spy side.

  8. #293
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I did not mean that Shang's use of weapons were a crutch but that he was even more bad@$$ with them.
    Ha, sorry taozen, my mistake. My response was supposed to be something along those lines. Shang is a great hand to hand fighter, but him displaying skill with weapons would be cool. Still, I wouldn't want him to always use weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    He's just that fast. Since the MOKF days, he's been able to dodge fire from automatic weapons and deflect bullets at close range using his bracers. Keep in mind comic book martial artists aren't "peak human" in the real world sense. Hell, Shang's tanked a punch from a Hulk-level alien. He ripped apart a Doombot with his bare hands and can easily kick down a reinforced steel door, or even through an aircraft hull.
    True that. The earlier pages of this thread have pics of Shang's feats.

    You're right. Shang was always a cross of Bruce Lee and James Bond, and that's how I like him to be portrayed as well. Secret Avengers definitely did that idea some justice, but as long as he's on the Avengers proper, I think his martial arts badassery will need to take precedence over his super spy side.
    I'm leaning to taozen's side in terms of distancing Shang from Bruce Lee. While Bruce is a phenomenal martial arts figure, he's an old and worn out figure. People have become so familiar with Bruce over the decades that he's lost some of his luster. To a greater extent, the same could be said of Eastern philosophies. Indeed, while these particular teachings that were espoused by Bruce Lee and shows like Kung Fu seemed to be the solution to all of life's problems 40 years ago, they too have become cliche. Concepts like "be like water," "adapt and change," and "detach and let go" are familiar to many now. I dare say people are jaded with such concepts.

    Now, I'm not a cynic or anything. On the contrary, I still think that there's a lot of relevance left with Chinese martial arts and Eastern philosophy. I mentioned this in an earlier post, but our understanding of both these things has developed immensely over the years. I'd want Shang to be the guy who shows that these things still have meaning. Indeed, I think a calm and clear voice like Shang's is necessary in the critical, confusing, and complex place that is the Marvel Universe. That's why I'm excited about this mutual challenge going on between Tony and Shang. While Tony may show that technology can raise Shang's martial prowess and understanding to higher levels, I hope Shang shows Tony that there are some things that science can never truly comprehend.

    Advancing and rising of the spirit, baby .
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  9. #294
    Veteran Member Hypestyle's Avatar
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    has avengers #1 come out yet? how is shang introduced to the group?

  10. #295
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    He's just that fast. Since the MOKF days, he's been able to dodge fire from automatic weapons and deflect bullets at close range using his bracers. Keep in mind comic book martial artists aren't "peak human" in the real world sense. Hell, Shang's tanked a punch from a Hulk-level alien. He ripped apart a Doombot with his bare hands and can easily kick down a reinforced steel door, or even through an aircraft hull.
    Shang doing some of that superhuman stuff in those comics smacks of the writers upping Shang's "power" level in order to conviently (sp) suit the needs of the story. Unless it is stated or established that Shang's master of the mystical martial arts or that he can tap into a superhuman level of mystical chi energy (like Iron Fist and the new Power Man), then he shouldn't be kicking down steel doors,smashing Doombots with his bare hands,or kicking through an aircraft hull.

    You're right. Shang was always a cross of Bruce Lee and James Bond, and that's how I like him to be portrayed as well. Secret Avengers definitely did that idea some justice, but as long as he's on the Avengers proper, I think his martial arts badassery will need to take precedence over his super spy side.
    And this is one of the reasons why I think that it was a terrible idea to make Shang a member of the Avengers. Shang is not a "superhero" or costume crimefighter/vigilante (in the traditional sense). He's a spy/law enforcement agent. Shang works better as either an agent of SHIELD or MI-13.

  11. #296
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    has avengers #1 come out yet? how is shang introduced to the group?
    It came out a few weeks ago. Issue #2 came out last week. It wasn't shown how Shang joined the group in issue #1. I haven't read issue #2 yet, so I don't know if it is explained/shown how he joins the team in that issue.

  12. #297
    Mario Di Giacomo mdg1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
    It came out a few weeks ago. Issue #2 came out last week. It wasn't shown how Shang joined the group in issue #1. I haven't read issue #2 yet, so I don't know if it is explained/shown how he joins the team in that issue.
    I have. In brief:

    spoilers:
    Shang Chi is battling holographic opponents in Stark's lab.
    Tony talks about his skills, and suggests he can help Shang go beyond his current level by merging "tradition with technology"
    Shang says he doesn't need weapons beyond his hands. Tony gives him a "wanna bet?" grin.
    end of spoilers

    That's it. Irks me a bit, because it positions Stark as somewhat of a know-it-all.
    Mario Di Giacomo

  13. #298
    Senior Member Moriarty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    how is shang introduced to the group?
    it was only a few panels.




  14. #299
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdg1 View Post
    I have. In brief:

    That's it. Irks me a bit, because it positions Stark as somewhat of a know-it-all.
    It also makes Tony the Deus Ex Machina go to guy to make characters more powerful. This is bad superhero writing 101.

  15. #300
    Senior Member taozen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blade X View Post
    Shang doing some of that superhuman stuff in those comics smacks of the writers upping Shang's "power" level in order to conviently (sp) suit the needs of the story. Unless it is stated or established that Shang's master of the mystical martial arts or that he can tap into a superhuman level of mystical chi energy (like Iron Fist and the new Power Man), then he shouldn't be kicking down steel doors,smashing Doombots with his bare hands,or kicking through an aircraft hull.



    And this is one of the reasons why I think that it was a terrible idea to make Shang a member of the Avengers. Shang is not a "superhero" or costume crimefighter/vigilante (in the traditional sense). He's a spy/law enforcement agent. Shang works better as either an agent of SHIELD or MI-13.
    I agree with you on both points. If he is human then how is dodging bullets and deflecting them Wonder Woman style. Might as well give him his own version of super kung fu.

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