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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by satchmo the dragon View Post
    no that's been done a million times.
    Well, once at least.

    It also turned him into a hot naked chick which was.... weird.

  2. #512
    MXAAGVNIEETRO were right The Black Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey W View Post
    It sucked for two arcs while Austen had it. Busiek's run (I believe) sold well and so did Geoff Johns. As I said, I didn't mind blowing it up for fun and it looks like the toys are now being returned to the box, but I wish it hadn't taken so long.
    Yeah, "sucked" is a bit strong for anything Johns' run. Well, not counting anything with Janet.

    I think it's silly to pit Busiek vs Bendis. Both men did great things for Avengers. Busiek was a godsend after HR. Bendis saved the Avengers from a return to mediocrity, which was a serious danger under both Johns and Austen.
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  3. #513
    Choke LeonardEugenius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    You're bringing up memories of the Crossing now. Bad, bad, bad.

    Also, Ultron did this in the first arc of Mighty Avengers.
    Ah I forgot about that part of the Mighty Avengers. That was resolved all too quickly. I'm talking hardcore, slaughter machine. Speaking of the Mighty Avengers, those first couple of issues or however long they did the thought bubbles along with the speech bubbles were painful.

  4. #514
    Half Man, Half Amazing hysang's Avatar
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    They need to do a Busiek and go back to the classic core members in the team. Lose the New Avengers book and have Luke Cage, Jessica Jones and Baby Cage go off into comic book limbo or to the Defenders.

    Avengers Assemble is on the right track, but would be better with a different writer and a better artist.

  5. #515
    Half Man, Half Amazing hysang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey W View Post
    There is some truth to the statement that New Avengers with Cap, Iron Man, Spider-Man, and Wolverine was bound to do well since that is basically all of Marvel's solo characters minus Hulk and DD (Thor was dead at the time).

    But Bendis deserves a lot of the credit. I haven't enjoyed his Avengers, but it certainly sells.
    He doesn't really deserve as much credit as he gets. He has so-so or interesting ideas, but horribly plotted execution. And he can't seem to keep his own continuity straight.

  6. #516
    Veteran Member matthewaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corey W View Post
    That and Sony has the X-Men and Fox teh FF, so if Marvel was going to do a movie it wouldn't be them.

    I agree completely with the point that a lot of the frustration towards Bendis is by fans who assumed Disassembled would be short lived and didn't realize it would be years before the core members of the team started floating around the MU again.

    I din't love Disassembled, but I didn't hate it. I did LOVE the first arc of NA and enjoyed all of the arcs up through Civil War. That is when I got bored. And, it is true, my frustration grew that there was no place to read about Hawkeye (dead at the start of Civil War--then came back as a ninja killer named Clint Barton), the Scarlet Witch (lost), the Vision (dead), Cap (dead), Iron Man (villain), Thor (dead--although he might have come back right around then), etc. At the end of Civil War, it was pretty rough to be a classic Avengers fan. And, at least for me, that is when my frustration with the Bendis-Avengers books boiled over.

    Up until then, I thought that Bendis made it seem natural. The intiial meeting of the NA consciously mirrored the original Avengers meeting. A point that Cap unecessarily drove home with a sledge hammer by mentioning it out loud in the book. It also mirrored the original concept of the biggest stars all on one team. And over time the Bendis team has all become friends. Realistically, Wolvie is no worse of a fit than Moon Knight (Engelhart), Namor (Stern) or the Hulk (Lee), and he hasn't tried to kill the team as Swordsman did so that is plus. And Sandman went bad again suggesting that he might not have been ready. I can live with Wolvie. I just missed "my Avengers."

    Honestly, I think his run has been fun and good if you like his writing and have no fondness for the classic Avengers roster. If you do have a fondness for the classic roster, then it has been a tough 8 years.

    That said, I don't dislike Bendis. I don't know the guy at all and all of the other creators seem to like him. So I assume he is a good guy. He obviously loves comic books and much of his work is outstanding. If he never writes another good comic, Daredevil, Powers, Ultimate Spidey, and Alias is a pretty good resume.
    That point I can understand. However I really liked Iron Man's transition on Civil War and that was when I started reading Iron Man. I also liked Bucky as cap, though Brubaker was the reason I started reading. It was interesting at first seing Hawkeye's path, though it went nowhere but anyway. Sure change is rough but all those things are hapened so as to shake the status quo and so everyone will care about the characters.
    And I willl again say that I liked NA, though Bendis in Avengers sucks.
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  7. #517
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hysang View Post
    He doesn't really deserve as much credit as he gets. He has so-so or interesting ideas, but horribly plotted execution. And he can't seem to keep his own continuity straight.
    Yes, but he was at the right place, at the right time, and he didn't fumble. I'm far from being a Bendis supporter, but when Marvel gave him lemons, he made lemonade, a lot of it. The guy certainly deserves credit for that.
    Look, my point of view and experience more or less matches Corey W's. Bendis is not the first Avengers run I didn't like. Far from it. Englehart was never my favorite writer, so his initial Avg's run (which I only read after he'd left the book) and his WCA run, while having a lot of enjoyable stories (Time, Time and Again, for exemple) did always leave me wanting for the next writer to come along. HATED Shooters second run (yeah, that's right), found it really boring, and Hank was always a favorite, so there may be some bias there (I liked quite a lot his first run). After Simonson left (#300), for me, the book seemed to drag up until Harras and Epting came aboard. Found Byrn'e run boring (although I was loving him in WCA), Nicieza's (one of my all-time favorites) issues were basically fill-in, and, although moderately enjoyable, were just that and never moved along the story, and Hama seemed to have some good ideas, but just didn't click with me. Of course, It helped that I was loving WCA throuout all this, so I was having my Avengers fix. Austen goes down for me as the absolute worst Avengers run (yes, even worst than Bendis'), and While I didn't like much Disassembled, I could see that it's purpose was to clean house, so I gave it a pass. Although Wolverine's membership stuck (and still sticks) my craw, I liked the first arc. After that it was a little lukewarm up until Civil War. I could see that Bendis was never going to be one of my favorite Avengers writers, but I could stand him a little bit until the next came along. After Civil War (which, I'll admit, had, IMHO, some of Bendis best Avengers related work), I started to get really frustrated and fed up. Bendis' Mighty "Avengery" book was anything but, his New Avengers had nothing in common with an Avengers team, and yet another event was comming along centered on these (at this point, for me, of course) tottaly unlikable characters. So, for me, Bendis greatest "sin" as an Avengers writer was not dumping the classic members, writing boring stories, or even bringing in Wolverine, it was staying on too long. He really should have left after Seige. It was the perfect jumping off point for him, but he chose to remain, and it's been way too long eight plus years for the Avengers fan. I'm happy someone else will have a chance soon.

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  8. #518
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Nomads1, I think we can all agree that Austen's was the worst. I mean that from an objective point of view. Bendis has supporters. I have yet to see someone defend the Austen run.

  9. #519
    Avengers Assemble! Telos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Nomads1, I think we can all agree that Austen's was the worst. I mean that from an objective point of view. Bendis has supporters. I have yet to see someone defend the Austen run.
    I actually defended it in the "Controversial Avengers Opinions" thread. It was by no means a good run, but I think its reputation is far worse than it deserves. It was very flawed, but Bendis has done a lot more to sour me than Austen ever did.

    Edit: Actually, I'm not going to link it. I found the post, but I was really too light on it. I think I posted it when I was quite new to the Avengers. It's embarrassing to read in hindsight

    Long story short, here are the reasons I think Austen was a better writer than Bendis:
    • Austen came up with semi-original ideas rather than recycling the same ones (e.g. Austen came up with New Invaders, Bendis did this)
    • Austen left his mark on the franchise by introducing a new character rather than getting rid of most of the existing team (i.e. he didn't write Disassembled)
    • The stories were well-paced in terms of setup, conflict and resolution. There weren't any long periods of decompression with sudden endings.
    • The character voices were unique as opposed to Bendis's "everybody sounds like a snarky teenager" style
    • There was balance between character usage - nobody was wallpaper, everyone had at least a few lines.

    Yes, Austen's characterizations were often extremely flawed. The same applies to Bendis. Yes, Austen's dialogue was awful, soap-opera-inspired drivel. Same applies to Bendis. Austen had Hawkeye making out with Wasp. Bendis had him change into a ninja costume and execute an unarmed Skrull.

    Finally, Austen's run is skippable. Hate it? That's fine, no major status quo changes happen anyway. Move along. Bendis's run, on the other hand, lasted eight years and became Marvel's flagship title. Hate it? Tough shit, it's now the high-selling core of the Marvel Universe.
    Last edited by Telos; 05-07-2012 at 07:12 AM.

  10. #520
    Senior Member Lascoden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telos View Post
    I actually defended it in the "Controversial Avengers Opinions" thread. It was by no means a good run, but I think its reputation is far worse than it deserves. It was very flawed, but Bendis has done a lot more to sour me than Austen ever did.

    Edit: Actually, I'm not going to link it. I found the post, but I was really too light on it. I think I posted it when I was quite new to the Avengers. It's embarrassing to read in hindsight
    Yeah, I was the same way with Bendis. I came into Avengers with Secret Invasion, and actually thought that it was really good. By the end of the event, I just got really sick on his writing style.

    I suppose it could be possible that Austen gets more flak then he deserves. But, after you read his story about an evil Superman raping a woman to death, it's had to remain objective with the rest of his work.

  11. #521
    Prostitution Whores! Talisman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeismoney View Post
    But it never had the level of respect that it has now with Avengers being on the X Men level. Like it or not Avenger was not an easy sale until BMB as it is never out of the top 25.
    Yes, actually, it did. Sure, X-Men was a bigger sell, but when you had Roger Stern on the Avengers and Englehart on WCA, they were on par with what was going on with the X-books, and to a certain degree, were just as good as Byrne's FF that was going on at the same time.
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  12. #522
    Avengers Assemble! Telos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lascoden View Post
    Yeah, I was the same way with Bendis. I came into Avengers with Secret Invasion, and actually thought that it was really good. By the end of the event, I just got really sick on his writing style.

    I suppose it could be possible that Austen gets more flak then he deserves. But, after you read his story about an evil Superman raping a woman to death, it's had to remain objective with the rest of his work.
    I came onto Marvel with Avengers Disassembled and House of M when I was 10 or 11. I liked the art, but both of those stories really confused me at the time, and there were a bunch of things that bugged me throughout. In hindsight I can see it was clearly the dialogue that got to me.

    His Avengers work is the only Austen stuff I've read, but I've heard how bad some of his other runs have been. I'm actually tempted to buy his X-Men run purely for comedy value.

  13. #523
    Half Man, Half Amazing hysang's Avatar
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    Bendis was terrible from the beginning. Sorry, it's true.

  14. #524
    Veteran Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telos View Post
    I came onto Marvel with Avengers Disassembled and House of M when I was 10 or 11. I liked the art, but both of those stories really confused me at the time, and there were a bunch of things that bugged me throughout. In hindsight I can see it was clearly the dialogue that got to me.

    His Avengers work is the only Austen stuff I've read, but I've heard how bad some of his other runs have been. I'm actually tempted to buy his X-Men run purely for comedy value.
    I do get some good laughs out of Austen's X-Men, but I don't loathe it as much as others do. Maybe because Morrison's view of the X-Men at the time really didn't click with me, so Austen's run became an option, an alternative. Plus, depite also despising Nurse Annie and what he did with Polaris, Havok was always one of my favorites, and he, and quite a few other X-Men I liked were getting the spotlight. I also liked Juggernaught's redemption. In the end, However, X-Treme X-men was my favorite X-Men title of that period, even after Larrocaleft and we were left with the totally inadequate art od Igor Korday.
    I will say I liked Austen's Exiles, though.

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  15. #525
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    Yes, but he was at the right place, at the right time, and he didn't fumble. I'm far from being a Bendis supporter, but when Marvel gave him lemons, he made lemonade, a lot of it. The guy certainly deserves credit for that.
    Look, my point of view and experience more or less matches Corey W's. Bendis is not the first Avengers run I didn't like. Far from it. Englehart was never my favorite writer, so his initial Avg's run (which I only read after he'd left the book) and his WCA run, while having a lot of enjoyable stories (Time, Time and Again, for exemple) did always leave me wanting for the next writer to come along. HATED Shooters second run (yeah, that's right), found it really boring, and Hank was always a favorite, so there may be some bias there (I liked quite a lot his first run). After Simonson left (#300), for me, the book seemed to drag up until Harras and Epting came aboard. Found Byrn'e run boring (although I was loving him in WCA), Nicieza's (one of my all-time favorites) issues were basically fill-in, and, although moderately enjoyable, were just that and never moved along the story, and Hama seemed to have some good ideas, but just didn't click with me. Of course, It helped that I was loving WCA throuout all this, so I was having my Avengers fix. Austen goes down for me as the absolute worst Avengers run (yes, even worst than Bendis'), and While I didn't like much Disassembled, I could see that it's purpose was to clean house, so I gave it a pass. Although Wolverine's membership stuck (and still sticks) my craw, I liked the first arc. After that it was a little lukewarm up until Civil War. I could see that Bendis was never going to be one of my favorite Avengers writers, but I could stand him a little bit until the next came along. After Civil War (which, I'll admit, had, IMHO, some of Bendis best Avengers related work), I started to get really frustrated and fed up. Bendis' Mighty "Avengery" book was anything but, his New Avengers had nothing in common with an Avengers team, and yet another event was comming along centered on these (at this point, for me, of course) tottaly unlikable characters. So, for me, Bendis greatest "sin" as an Avengers writer was not dumping the classic members, writing boring stories, or even bringing in Wolverine, it was staying on too long. He really should have left after Seige. It was the perfect jumping off point for him, but he chose to remain, and it's been way too long eight plus years for the Avengers fan. I'm happy someone else will have a chance soon.

    Peace
    As much as I love Bendis, I agree with you 100% that he stayed on the title for far too long.

    His work on the current New Avengers and Avengers has been underwhelming and reeks of creative burnout (it has happened to all the best writers that stay too long on a title).
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