NBA 2011-12 Season Thread

[Vibranium]

as a Knicks fan, I would have sooner seen them not make the playoffs this year then get run out the way they did

[kalorama]

Talent-wise, Lin-Fields-Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler is as good a starting 5 as any team bar Miami & OKC can put out, talent-wise. Assuming you get a few more good seasons out of Stat and Chandler, the main priority has to be finding a way to get them all to gel next season.

That's a pretty tall order, given how poorly they mesh and the fact that this deep into their careers, getting any of them to significantly change their ways is going to be tough. It's not like with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce, where all they really had to sacrifice were minutes and shots. The fundamental nature of Stoudemire, Anthony, and Chandler's games just don't fit well together.

[Libaax]

Carmelo is getting old, Amare is getting old

the Knicks haven't had an "excellent" starting 5 in almost a decade now


blow it up, for real, and start over

Haha you must be joking, Carmelo is the same as Lebron aka in his prime years of 27 and soon 28. Amare is 30 this year. He is not 36,37 like KG,Ray Allen.

Amare might be on the decline because of injures but he is as old as Wade and not getting old. He will be old in basketball years in 4-5 years and not getting there now.

[Libaax]

That's a pretty tall order, given how poorly they mesh and the fact that this deep into their careers, getting any of them to significantly change their ways is going to be tough. It's not like with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce, where all they really had to sacrifice were minutes and shots. The fundamental nature of Stoudemire, Anthony, and Chandler's games just don't fit well together.

First of i dont believe Amare is great superstar,hall of famer like KG,Allen,Pierce was in their prime. He has shown he could feed on Nash passes in Suns, he hasnt shown he can dominate offensively in NYC.

Carmelo is elite,superstar player in skills and more impressive than Amare. Even if he had two other great superstars like him it doesnt look like he can sacrifice minutes,shots.

There has be less ego to gel to a strong team. It would be too good,too normal if more stars could do like KG,Allen,Pierce did in Boston.

[jesse_custer]

Actually, I thought Stoudemire showed he could dominate with the Knicks before Anthony came along.

[Libaax]

Actually, I thought Stoudemire showed he could dominate with the Knicks before Anthony came along.

I meant he didnt carry a team on his own to playoffs like the big 3 in Boston did for years in their career. Im not saying he cant dominate, improve in Knicks but he hasnt been as great Garnett has been in his career. I dont think so far he can be compared to a power forward like that overall.

[kalorama]

First of i dont believe Amare is great superstar,hall of famer like KG,Allen,Pierce was in their prime. He has shown he could feed on Nash passes in Suns, he hasnt shown he can dominate offensively in NYC.

Carmelo is elite,superstar player in skills and more impressive than Amare. Even if he had two other great superstars like him it doesnt look like he can sacrifice minutes,shots.

There has be less ego to gel to a strong team. It would be too good,too normal if more stars could do like KG,Allen,Pierce did in Boston.

I never said Amare was a HoFer. But since you brought it up, based on his career to date, neither is Carmelo Anthony. Until he proves otherwise, Melo is basically Vince Carter 2.0, an extremely talented one-on-one offensive player who does little to make the guys around him better and whose impact on his team's ability to win always fall short of his impact on the stat sheet. And while less ego would certainly be a step in the right direction (A) that still wouldn't solve the fundamental mismatch in the skill sets of their 3 best/highest paid players and (B) the one who most needs to check his ego is Anthony, and he has never shown the slightest proclivity towards doing that.

[Libaax]

I never said Amare was a HoFer. But since you brought it up, based on his career to date, neither is Carmelo Anthony. Until he proves otherwise, Melo is basically Vince Carter 2.0, an extremely talented one-on-one offensive player who does little to make the guys around him better and whose impact on his team's ability to win always fall short of his impact on the stat sheet. And while less ego would certainly be a step in the right direction (A) that still wouldn't solve the fundamental mismatch in the skill sets of their 3 best/highest paid players and (B) the one who most needs to check his ego is Anthony, and he has never shown the slightest proclivity towards doing that.

It took time for Carmelo to grow how great he is right now offensively even if he is one on one offensive player. Put in him with better team set he would be more effective.

I meant right now Carmelo is one of the elite offensively player in the league, he hasnt been that in all of the first 7,8 seasons of his career. His ego is in the way of helping his team being better. I meant offensively he is more dangerous, dominating than Amare. Didnt he was a leader who makes his team better. He needs a team build around more than say Wade,Lebron type players.

[kalorama]

I meant he didnt carry a team on his own to playoffs like the big 3 in Boston did for years in their career. Im not saying he cant dominate, improve in Knicks but he hasnt been as great Garnett has been in his career. I dont think so far he can be compared to a power forward like that overall.

Pierce and Allen shouldn't get much credit for "carrying teams on their own into the playoffs." Prior to the Big 3 project, Boston had limited playoff success with Pierce, and their best years were when he was paired with Antoine Walker in his prime. On his own, Pierce didn't much carry the Celtics anywhere (which is why they got Garnett and Allen). And Allen was never a first rank franchise player. He was in the NBA for 10 years before he got traded to the Celtics and only appeared in the playoffs 4 times (although I believe there was a year or two where his team made it in and he didn't play because of injury). And on two of those Milwaukee Bucks teams, he wasn't even the leading scorer (Glenn Robinson was). He also played with other all-star caliber players in Robinson, Sam Cassell, and Rashard Lewis, so it's not like he was flying solo. Now Garnett definitely did some heavy liting in getting some really under-talented TWolves teams into the playoffs year after year.

[kalorama]

It took time for Carmelo to grow how great he is right now offensively even if he is one on one offensive player. Put in him with better team set he would be more effective.

I meant right now Carmelo is one of the elite offensively player in the league, he hasnt been that in all of the first 7,8 seasons of his career. His ego is in the way of helping his team being better. I meant offensively he is more dangerous, dominating than Amare. Didnt he was a leader who makes his team better. He needs a team build around more than say Wade,Lebron type players.

It's not like he just recently learned how the score at a high level. It's basically the only thing he does well and he's been doing it at a high volume since day 1. Anthony has been a 20+ ppg scorer every season he's been in the NBA and averaged 27 ppg his just his 3rd season. He's not doing anything now that he hasn't been doing for years.

[Libaax]

Pierce and Allen shouldn't get much credit for "carrying teams on their own into the playoffs." Prior to the Big 3 project, Boston had limited playoff success with Pierce, and their best years were when he was paired with Antoine Walker in his prime. On his own, Pierce didn't much carry the Celtics anywhere (which is why they got Garnett and Allen). And Allen was never a first rank franchise player. He was in the NBA for 10 years before he got traded to the Celtics and only appeared in the playoffs 4 times (although I believe there was a year or two where his team made it in and he didn't play because of injury). And on two of those Milwaukee Bucks teams, he wasn't even the leading scorer (Glenn Robinson was). He also played with other all-star caliber players in Robinson, Sam Cassell, and Rashard Lewis, so it's not like he was flying solo. Now Garnett definitely did some heavy liting in getting some really under-talented TWolves teams into the playoffs year after year.

Heh i just saw one of those mid 2000s when Spurs won the title 2003 or 2005 where Allen in Seattle beat them a game or two on his own. I saw with my own eyes him shooting them to death. He carried that weak team to win against great team that was much better. Carrying a weak playoff team doesnt mean winning the championship because then you have many role good role players or one or two other stars.

Sure he didnt do as much heavy lifting as Garnett but he is all time shooter, 20+ career scorer that carried atleast one weak team.

Im dont know much about Pierce since he isnt a fav player of mine i back researched like Allen and KG. He is though all time leader scorer in great historical team like Celtics not like he was second string star to Antoine Walker.

No matter how bad team they were in, they did alot themselves to be one of the best in their positions of all time.

Allen was never first rank franchise player haha, you might as well call KG as not special for missing playoffs for years in Minnesota. There is a reason why they sacrificed their scoring, to go Boston, hall of fame numbers wasnt good enough in weaker team they were the biggest stars.

Ray Allen all time best 3 point shooter or Rasheed Lewis ? The guy that never became anything. Every big star has player with other star caliber. Wade had Shaq!

My point was Amare doesnt have the status KG did in his prime and he isnt one of the best in NBA right now like Carmelo is no matter his ego, not fitting easily in a team.

[Libaax]

It's not like he just recently learned how the score at a high level. It's basically the only thing he does well and he's been doing it at a high volume since day 1. Anthony has been a 20+ ppg scorer every season he's been in the NBA and averaged 27 ppg his just his 3rd season. He's not doing anything now that he hasn't been doing for years.

He has become more even in his scoring, since that third season with 28 ppg, he went down to 25,22 and since 2009,2010,2011 he is 28-26 ppg.

He cant improve more than that. He just needs more even team, better team defense. He can lead a team to title like Dirk who doesnt defend well or rebound and only scores big. Dallas has better defense, better role players.

Knicks isnt anywhere that level, Carmelo isnt bringing them down. Their PG is Baron Davis and unproven Lin. Decent scoring bench, great defender in Chandler but many other positions lacking.

[C-Cool]

He has become more even in his scoring, since that third season with 28 ppg, he went down to 25,22 and since 2009,2010,2011 he is 28-26 ppg.

He cant improve more than that. He just needs more even team, better team defense. He can lead a team to title like Dirk who doesnt defend well or rebound and only scores big. Dallas has better defense, better role players.

Knicks isnt anywhere that level, Carmelo isnt bringing them down. Their PG is Baron Davis and unproven Lin. Decent scoring bench, great defender in Chandler but many other positions lacking.

Scratch out Baron Davis. I saw that knee (or what's left of it). He's never, ever going to be the same. And that's from his previous playing level (which wasn't that high, especially compared to what he was).

So they have an unproven Lin (hope he plays well, even role player well), and... Mike Bibby.

I'm not saying they need to draft a PG but, Mike Bibby.

[kalorama]

He has become more even in his scoring, since that third season with 28 ppg, he went down to 25,22 and since 2009,2010,2011 he is 28-26 ppg.

He cant improve more than that. He just needs more even team, better team defense. He can lead a team to title like Dirk who doesn't defend well or rebound and only scores big. Dallas has better defense, better role players.

He had all that his second to last season in Denver when they got Billups and made it to the WCF. What happened? He came back the next season and torpedoed the team's chemistry by making googly eyes with the Knicks and forcing a trade. And I never said he needed to "improve" on his scoring. What he needs to improve on is being a selfish me-firster, something he hasn't ever shown the slightest interest in. And there's no comparison between Dirk and Anthony. Dirk is a big-time scorer, but he's also a team player. Anthony isn't and never has been.

Knicks isnt anywhere that level, Carmelo isnt bringing them down. Their PG is Baron Davis and unproven Lin. Decent scoring bench, great defender in Chandler but many other positions lacking.

There's no question that Carmelo did bring the Knicks down. They were playing well last season before the trade, so well that people were talking about Stoudemire as a dark horse MVP candidate. After the trade their chemistry fell apart and has never recovered. You can deride Amare all you like, but they were a better team with him as the lead player before Anthony than they have been since Anthony got there. A title contending team? No. But they were better than the mess they've had since Anthony big footed his way into town

[kalorama]

Heh i just saw one of those mid 2000s when Spurs won the title 2003 or 2005 where Allen in Seattle beat them a game or two on his own. I saw with my own eyes him shooting them to death. He carried that weak team to win against great team that was much better. Carrying a weak playoff team doesnt mean winning the championship because then you have many role good role players or one or two other stars.

Sure he didnt do as much heavy lifting as Garnett but he is all time shooter, 20+ career scorer that carried atleast one weak team.

No one said anything about winning a championship. But carrying a team to the playoffs (which is what you said) is not the same thing as a shooter getting hot in a couple of playoff games. Ray Allen is certainly capable of the latter, but none of those teams he played on got to the playoffs solely, or even primarily, because of his efforts. He was part of a collection of talent, including other all-star caliber players. The idea that he ever did anything single-handedly is just not true. None of those teams would have gotten anywhere near the playoffs if he hadn't had other quality guys around him.

EDIT: And the Sonics ended up losing that playoff series against the Spurs, which further speaks to my point.