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  1. #2401
    I'm not a sidekick Kasper Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    seriously...I love Rick Barry but the worst thing one can do with a crowd in full throat like that is to berate them

    and I'm usually the first one to criticize my fellow humans, but in this instance I am tempted to agree....the ownership there with the Warrios has done ZERO to make that team a contender again following their playoff run a few years back....they just let Baron Davis walk out the door
    Can't really fault them for letting Baron Davis walk.

    Baron had all the skill and talent to be an elite PG in the NBA but a combination of injuries, attitude problems, and lack of plain old hard work did him in.

  2. #2402
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    Rondo has been the best player for the Celtics since that championship run, including that postseason where he basically averaged a triple-double.
    Based on what? Rajon Rondo's offense is predicated on the effectiveness of Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. He's a major liability at the close of games because he is a poor outside shooter and a terrible free-throw shooter. Pierce is still Boston's best all-around player and the closer in most games. Rondo's greatest attribute is playing off these players.

    Here is the way I look at Rondo vs. someone like Chris Paul, using a previous NBA player as analogies:

    Rondo = a modern-day K.C. Jones (defensive-minded, pass-first complementary/role player)
    Paul = a modern-day Isiah Thomas (dynamic scorer and distributor, and equally adept at balancing both roles)

    In a vacuum with all things being equal, Jones could be a liability because of his limited skills on offense. In the context of Boston's teams in the 1960s, Jones was perfect to set up guys like Bill Russell, John Havlicek and Sam Jones.

    With Thomas, his skill level was such that not only could he be the main cog for a team but he had the ability to integrate that role into a team with other standout players. In a vacuum or in the context of a team, Thomas was equally effective with little to no drop-off and did it at a high level.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I am not downgrading Rose so much as pointing out that the "scoring point guard as leader" trend is overrated. I just don't see Paul, Williams, or even Rose leading their teams to a championship in the current NBA.
    Interesting, because Rondo hasn't come close to doing that. He was the fourth option on a Boston team that had three all-star caliber players in 2008. In fact, he was still the fourth-best player on the Celtics in 2010, when the team almost won the title. You have seen Boston now, with The Big 3 in their decline and leaning on Rondo more, and that team is 24-21 and fighting for a lower seed in the East.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I don't think it's fair to compare Johnson to these current scoring point guards (don't know enough about Frazier to comment). Johnson was a big guy. Thomas, yes, he was a scoring point guard - and a better defender and leader than Paul, Rose, or Williams.
    There is this perception that Magic Johnson was just this great passer, but he averaged 18 (1979-80), 18.6 (1981-82) and 18.3 points per game (1984-85) in the Lakers' first three championships. When Magic became the offensive focal point in 1986-87, he averaged 23.7 ppg in the Lakers' title run in 1986-87 and 19.6 ppg in the 1987-88 repeat. He also averaged 22.5, 22.3 and 19.4 ppg in his final three years before announcing his first retirement in 1991.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    Parker is a scoring guard, but he wasn't the leader when the Spurs won championships, and the Spurs aren't going to win a championship with their current team.
    Well, I see Boston clinging on to the seventh seed in the East with Rondo as supposedly the best player on the Celtics. I will take my chances with Tony Parker and San Antonio being in the Finals before the Celtics and Rondo.
    Last edited by Mic Murphy; 03-20-2012 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #2403
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    seriously...I love Rick Barry but the worst thing one can do with a crowd in full throat like that is to berate them

    and I'm usually the first one to criticize my fellow humans, but in this instance I am tempted to agree....the ownership there with the Warrios has done ZERO to make that team a contender again following their playoff run a few years back....they just let Baron Davis walk out the door
    Not the point.

    They were there to honor Chris Mullin.

    Besides, has that guy even owned the Warriors for a whole year yet?

    He is far from being the author of thier misery.

    So you ruin Mullin's ceremony to vent at a guy whose owned the team all of what 15 months (i really don't know)?

    Stay classy S-F.

  4. #2404
    I'm not a sidekick Kasper Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    Not the point.

    They were there to honor Chris Mullin.

    Besides, has that guy even owned the Warriors for a whole year yet?

    He is far from being the author of thier misery.

    So you ruin Mullin's ceremony to vent at a guy whose owned the team all of what 15 months (i really don't know)?

    Stay classy S-F.
    I don't know if I'd go as far as to say Mullin's ceremony was ruined. It's not like they were booing Chris and chanting stupid stuff while Chris was trying to talk. You're right though about them booing the wrong guy, but as I said the best thing to do in situations like that is ignore it. Sports fans in general aren't exactly classy individuals.

  5. #2405
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    Interesting, because Rondo hasn't come close to doing that. He was the fourth option on a Boston team that had three all-star caliber players in 2008. In fact, he was still the fourth-best player on the Celtics in 2010, when the team almost won the title. You have seen Boston now, with The Big 3 in their decline and leaning on Rondo more, and that team is 24-21 and fighting for a lower seed in the East.
    I'd say Rondo's play during the postseason without Garnett beats anything by the others. He almost led the Celtics to victory against the Magic, who would make the championship that year, and he was the major advantage that the Celtics had against the Bulls in that legendary first round.

    And to be fair, the Celtics this season have suffered a lot of injuries. Rondo himself didn't play for a stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    There is this perception that Magic Johnson was just this great passer, but he averaged 18 (1979-80), 18.6 (1981-82) and 18.3 points per game (1984-85) in the Lakers' first three championships. When Magic became the offensive focal point in 1986-87, he averaged 23.7 ppg in the Lakers' title in 1986-87 and 19.6 ppg in the 1987-88 repeat. He also averaged 22.5, 22.3 and 19.4 ppg in his final three years before announcing his first retirement in 1991.
    I didn't say Magic wasn't a scorer. I said he's a big guy, as in bigger than any of the point guards we're talking about. Magic could play center. That's why I don't get this comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    Well, I see Boston clinging on to the seventh seed in the East with Rondo as supposedly the best player on the Celtics. I think I would take my chances with Tony Parker and San Antonio being in the Finals before the Celtics and Rondo.
    I wouldn't. I predict the Celtics will move up a seed or two and lose in the second round. I also see the Spurs losing in the second round.
    Last edited by jesse_custer; 03-20-2012 at 12:46 PM.

  6. #2406
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    if it was Philly, they would have been throwing batteries
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    Not the point.

    They were there to honor Chris Mullin.

    Besides, has that guy even owned the Warriors for a whole year yet?

    He is far from being the author of thier misery.

    So you ruin Mullin's ceremony to vent at a guy whose owned the team all of what 15 months (i really don't know)?

    Stay classy S-F.
    they play in Oakland
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  8. #2408
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I'd say Rondo's play during the postseason without Garnett beats anything by the others. He almost led the Celtics to victory against the Magic, who would make the championship that year, and he was the major advantage that the Celtics had against the Bulls in that legendary first round.
    That would be the Boston team without Kevin Garnett barely beating a 41-41 Chicago team in the first round and losing to Orlando in the second round. Also, I recall in that Boston-Chicago series a rookie Derrick Rose was more than a handful for Rajon Rondo and Ben Gordon chewing up the Celtics.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I'd I didn't say Magic wasn't a scorer. I said he's a big guy, as in bigger than any of the point guards we're talking about. Magic could play center. That's why I don't get this comparison.
    You keep moving the goal posts. You said "scoring point guards were overrated," and I pulled out Magic Johnson. Now, you're wanting to dismiss Magic because of his size. I mention Tony Parker, who was a scoring point guard, and then you said he needs to be dismissed because he wasn't the leader of his team.

    All this, defending a complementary player whose main job description has been playing off three former perennial all-stars. A complementary player, I might add, WHO IS NOT THE LEADER OF HIS TEAM.

    BTW, another scoring point guard whose team won the NBA title was Gus Williams (1978-79, Seatlle).

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    "(I wouldn't) take my chances with Tony Parker and San Antonio being in the Finals before the Celtics and Rondo."
    San Antonio and Tony Parker have a much better chance of being in the NBA Finals than Boston supposedly being led by Rondo. Last I recalled, Boston was barely hanging on to a playoff spot with an aging Big 3 relying more on Rondo and San Antonio was second in the Western Conference.
    Last edited by Mic Murphy; 03-20-2012 at 12:54 PM.

  9. #2409
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    You keep moving the goal posts. You said "scoring point guards were overrated," and I pulled out Magic Johnson. Now, you're wanting to dismiss Magic because of his size. I mention Tony Parker, who was a scoring point guard, and then you said he needs to be dismissed because he wasn't the leader of his team.

    All this, defending a complementary player whose main job description has been playing off three former perennial all-stars. A complementary player, I might add, WHO IS NOT THE LEADER OF HIS TEAM.

    BTW, another scoring point guard whose team won the NBA title was Gus Williams (1978-79, Seatlle).
    I'm not moving the goal posts. I was having a discussion with Aubergine about the viewpoint that current scoring point guards can/will lead their teams to championships. You quoted this from that discussion: "That is, people routinely associate championships with scoring point guards as leaders, despite the fact that this hasn't happened and probably won't with teams like the Heat and the Thunder around." Taken alone, I can see why you brought up Magic and Thomas, but I wasn't saying that a scoring point guard had never led a team to a championship. I was talking about the current trend of scoring point guards. I just think my comment must be taken in this context:

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    As of right now, it's very speculative that you can win a title with Paul or Williams leading the team. This is less the case with Rose, but the problem is that Rose can't outplay Lebron James - size matters. This is why I think the scoring point guard is an overrated trend. That is, people routinely associate championships with scoring point guards as leaders, despite the fact that this hasn't happened and probably won't with teams like the Heat and the Thunder around.
    I apologize if my argument was or still is unclear, but I'm not moving the goal posts. I acknowledge that Magic and Thomas were scoring point guards and leaders. I just don't think Paul, Williams, or Rose are going to go down in history like Magic and Thomas. I am not sold on the current "scoring point guard = championship!" argument. That's why I like Rondo more - he knows his place as a true point guard. Not only that, but he has put up some freakish numbers that WILL be remembered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    San Antonio and Tony Parker have a much better chance of being in the NBA Finals than Boston supposedly being led by Rondo. Last I recalled, Boston was barely hanging on to a playoff spot with an aging Big 3 relying more on Rondo and San Antonio was second in the Western Conference.
    I don't think San Antonio's record is convincing enough. If they ended up playing the Mavericks, for instance, I think they'd lose.

  10. #2410
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    Th spurs just whooped on the heavily favored thunder..... Tony had a monster game.

  11. #2411
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I'm not moving the goal posts. I was having a discussion with Aubergine about the viewpoint that current scoring point guards can/will lead their teams to championships. You quoted this from that discussion: "That is, people routinely associate championships with scoring point guards as leaders, despite the fact that this hasn't happened and probably won't with teams like the Heat and the Thunder around."
    It depends on what your definition of a "leader" is. I am assuming you're talking in the context of, "The team's best offensive option and/or best overall player is a point guard."

    The issue is going to be the same with all teams, and that's namely the personnel with and around the player and how well those players mesh. Yeah, a team can win a championship with the likes of Chris Paul, Derrick Rose and Deron Williams as the centerpiece of a team -- all three of them are exceptional scorers, very unselfish players who can get other players involved and seem to be coachable players. But the question is going to be is what is around them (which really is no different than any other player, to a certain degree). Paul and Williams in particular have shown their production will be the same on a good team or a losing team.

    The argument about Rajon Rondo is that not only is his team success dependent on the other players around him, but the effectiveness of his play is dependent upon other players. You also cannot ignore the fact that Rondo's effectiveness has been playing off three perennial all-star players and then Rondo chipping in. Paul, Rose and Williams have shown that they can be the focal point on teams that have and can make the playoffs. Moreover, Rondo has never shown a skill set that you would want him to be anything more than a complementary player on a playoff-caliber team.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I just don't think Paul, Williams, or Rose are going to go down in history like Magic and Thomas. I am not sold on the current "scoring point guard = championship!" argument. That's why I like Rondo more - he knows his place as a true point guard.
    The argument is not whether Paul, Rose and Williams are as good as Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas, but whether they have the physical skills and the intangibles to have a championship team built around their talents as the best or second-best player. There is nothing in their play or makeup to suggest otherwise, and they have shown their production will not be negatively affected when other quality players are added to their teams.

    Chicago's biggest problem is that it lacks a quality shooting guard to give Rose help on the perimeter. If Atlanta had not grossly overpaid Joe Johnson, he would have been the perfect free agent to have added in the summer of 2010. Instead, Chicago had a spare part in Keith Bogans playing shooting guard and it allowed Miami to gang up on Rose in the East finals. Now, the team has a way-past-his-prime Rip Hamilton (that is, when he plays) at the position.

    Williams is on a bad team in New Jersey, but he showed in Utah that when paired with a borderline all-star level player (Carlos Boozer) and some quality complementary players those teams can do well. Those Jazz teams from 2006 through 2010 typically were 50-game winners and played in the 2006 Western Conference finals.

    Paul put up an MVP-worthy season in 2007-08 when he led New Orleans to 56 wins and 49 wins in 2008-09. David West and Tyson Chandler in particular thrived and blossomed playing with Paul. We've also seen how the Clippers have become a playoff-caliber team with adding Paul to play alongside Blake Griffin.

    So I'm not seeing the argument that states or implies that a championship caliber team cannot be built around these three. There is nothing about their skill sets or approaches that revealed that Paul, Rose and Williams are difficult players around whom to build a championship contender with them as the best or second-best player on the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I don't think San Antonio's record is convincing enough. If they ended up playing the Mavericks, for instance, I think they'd lose.
    That wasn't my point, though. My point is that San Antonio has a much better shot this year of being in the NBA Finals than Boston, which is relying more on Rajon Rondo to make up for The Big 3's declines and as a result the Celtics are clinging to a low playoff seed. The other point is we have seen what a team will be like if Rondo is expected to carry more than the complementary role he's had over the past few years.
    Last edited by Mic Murphy; 03-20-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  12. #2412
    The King is always around BYC's Avatar
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    Rajon Rondo has shown signs of being soft as well. His play late in games is usually very bad. He avoids driving, he avoids handling the ball, and he certainly avoids shooting. All of these things seem to occur from his terrible free throw shooting. He also has a tendency to alter his shots and body movement when he is taking a shot late to avoid being fouled. Derrick Rose appears to be in his head as every time they match up, Rondo has a bad game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BYC View Post
    Rajon Rondo has shown signs of being soft as well. His play late in games is usually very bad. He avoids driving, he avoids handling the ball, and he certainly avoids shooting. All of these things seem to occur from his terrible free throw shooting. He also has a tendency to alter his shots and body movement when he is taking a shot late to avoid being fouled. Derrick Rose appears to be in his head as every time they match up, Rondo has a bad game.
    I also believe Rajon Rondo's value among NBA executives is lower than what some people think it is, despite his name brand status. Teams are aware that a team of several solid to good scorers is needed around him to make him effective, and despite some of the arguments made on this board in his favor Rondo hasn't shown that he can be acquired for a featured player. A straight-up trade for Chris Paul or Pau Gasol was asking too much for Rondo, IMO.

    It's even more unrealistic when Boston didn't seem like it wanted to move one of its Big 3 with an expiring contract (Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen) in such a deal, even though the team knows it is going to need to do a rebuilding effort soon. Boston should have aimed lower for a promising young player and offered an expiring contract along with Rondo (for instance, John Wall for Rondo + Allen) and hoped a team bit on it.
    Last edited by Mic Murphy; 03-20-2012 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #2414
    The King is always around BYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Murphy View Post
    I also believe Rajon Rondo's value among NBA executives is lower than what some people think it is, despite his name brand status. Teams are aware that a team of several solid to good scorers are needed around him to make him effective, and despite some of the arguments made on this board in his favor Rondo hasn't shown that he can be acquired for a featured player. A straight-up trade for Chris Paul or Pau Gasol was asking too much for Rondo, IMO.

    It's even more unrealistic when Boston didn't seem like it wanted to move one of its Big 3 with an expiring contract (Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen) in such a deal, even though the team knows it is going to need to do a rebuilding effort soon. Boston should have aimed lower for a promising young player and offered an expiring contract along with Rondo (for instance, John Wall for Rondo + Allen) and hoped a team bit on it.
    I think the problem is nobody wants to play for the Celtics. I was thinking Rondo + a body = Josh Smith, but Smith probably wouldn't sign there. Rondo + a body = Brandon Jenning + a body, but will Jennings sign? Rondo + Allen = Jameer Nelson + Ryan Anderson, but Orlando loves Anderson too much (which is silly, should trade him now before his career year stops), or some draft picks with a 3rd team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BYC View Post
    I think the problem is nobody wants to play for the Celtics. I was thinking Rondo + a body = Josh Smith, but Smith probably wouldn't sign there. Rondo + a body = Brandon Jenning + a body, but will Jennings sign? Rondo + Allen = Jameer Nelson + Ryan Anderson, but Orlando loves Anderson too much (which is silly, should trade him now before his career year stops), or some draft picks with a 3rd team.
    Something like New Orleans' Eric Gordon and Jarrett Jack for Rajon Rondo + Ray Allen's expiring contract would be realistic. Gordon is 23, a scorer in the mode of Paul Pierce and once his deal expires in 2012-13 Boston could match or exceed any offer he gets in free agency. Jack is more than capable of running the show for a short time.

    Another realistic consideration would be Toronto's DeMar DeRozan and Jose Calderon for Rondo + Allen's expiring contract. DeRozan is a very versatile young athlete. Calderon has been among the league leaders in assists the past few years and while he will make $10 million in 2012-13, it's the final year of his contract.

    Another realistic trade would be Utah's Devin Harris, Paul Milsap and one of Utah's lottery picks for Rondo + Allen's expiring contract. With Derrick Favors on board, you have to figure that Milsap will be the odd man out as Favors continues to develop. Harris has been a disappointment this season, but he can be a quality point guard when his head is screwed on straight.
    Last edited by Mic Murphy; 03-20-2012 at 03:56 PM.

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