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  1. #6616
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Oh man, I thought CM's absence would end the obtuseness for a bit.

    What the Delta Phi Hell is going on today?
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."


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  2. #6617
    for the lulz 7thangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post

    The idea of Obama being "The First gay President" is no different that people saying Bill Clinton was "The first Black President".


    .
    it's just as dumb. newsweek is still shit, while Sully is hit and miss as usual.

  3. #6618
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    A cover that's intentionally provocative to garner interest and sell more magazines.

    The idea of Obama being "The First gay President" is no different that people saying Bill Clinton was "The first Black President".



    Hell i'd love to just see a conversation between the two where they discussion the merits and faults of humanity. Jonn's would have one perspective considering his shape shifting and mind reading abilities while Icon's might be significantly different considering he lived as a black male during his time on the planet and a big chunk of that time was spent enslaved to one degree or another.
    this would be pretty cool and if done right could be a whole issue, just these two talking about their point of views on Earth and humans in general

    plus they both were in law enforcement before becoming superheroes

    or well worked within the law, J'onn being a cop on mars and icon being a lawyer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Oh man, I thought CM's absence would end the obtuseness for a bit.

    What the Delta Phi Hell is going on today?
    Kasper Cole and I are discussing the merits of Icon/Martian Manhunter crossover and the implications that could have
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  4. #6619
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    Kasper Cole and I are discussing the merits of Icon/Martian Manhunter crossover and the implications that could have
    Oh, well then carry on! :D
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."


    - Stanisław Jerzy Lec

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  5. #6620
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Oh, well then carry on! :D
    well like if Icon shows up in the Nu52 I really think him and J'onn's encounter would go down like this. I'd find it pretty cool if he was like a shadow operative or something

    I got a lot of hopes for the future man
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  6. #6621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    A cover that's intentionally provocative to garner interest and sell more magazines.

    The idea of Obama being "The First gay President" is no different that people saying Bill Clinton was "The first Black President".
    The title of gay president doesn't bother me so much as the halo as if he were an angel or something.

  7. #6622
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    But then what happens if the writer still wants a less racially diverse cast (even if the cast is diverse in many other ways)? Take Secret Avengers. Rick Remender had War Machine and Shang-Chi, but replaced them with Captain Britain, Human Torch and Venom. Was he wrong to do so? It's not like Rick Remender is against writing minorities, he did an incredible job with Doctor Voodoo: Avenger of the Supernatural... but what if the stories he wanted to tell required a cast of white heroes? Human Torch is very much linked to the first arc; and (from what is rumoured) Captain Britain and Otherworld will play a big role after AvsX. So was he wrong to remove the two racially minority males, if they didn't fit with the stories he wanted to tell? (Hawkeye was probably an editors mandate; which is why I haven't mentioned him).
    While I always find it disappointing to see the only minority characters on a team written out of a book, I don't think that a writer is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that the creators should, for the most part, be able to use whatever characters they want in a book.

    I do think teams should be diverse; but I don't think editorial mandates are the way to do it. Personally, if you just limit every hero to only being allowed on one team at any one time; it would stretch the writers to use more than just the obvious; which will increase diversity.
    I agree. Heck, this used to be the case back in the day, when writers and editors were (IMO) less creatively lazy.

  8. #6623
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    It's a double edged sword, though. How do you write a black male? For some say there must be an ebonics sound to the dialogue, some say don't make him seem "too black" and some just say he doesn't "feel black" at all. How do you win? If ever the character gets angry = "oh, typical... another angry black man." If the character is calm, peaceful = "oh, a 'magic negro', white men only feel comfortable writing a black male if he's none-threatening." If you ignore black culture in the character it's gets critised, and if all you do is focus on the cultural background = stop making them "the black one" and just let them be a hero. These are all comments I've seen on these boards. I do agree Hickman's quote is taken out of context, but the point I believe he was trying to make is writing a black character gets A LOT more scrutiny in how they sound, act, what they do... than writing probably any white hero. It comes with more pressure, more cross-examination... and if you screw up = you get labelled a racist. What writer wants that?
    That's a very valid point. As someone who has criticized some white writers for how they write black characters, I think that a possible middle ground solution is for writers to include multiple black characters with different personalities and beliefs. Another possible solution is to do what Kurt Busiek does, and write black characters the exact same way that white characters (personality wise) are written without their personality either being a racial trait or their sole and defining character trait.

    Though personally I always dislike the "they sound to black"/"they don't sound black enough" arguements. Just write the character, doing what YOU want them to do. There is no "mold" all black characters must fit into. Why must all black characters "sound black"? It's not like that's true to life. Why must the character be "connected" to black culture? Plenty don't in real life.
    I agree. This is why I liked TRIO #1, all 3 characters are not written in an ethnic/racial mode.

  9. #6624
    Elder Member Blade X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper Cole View Post
    The problem with that is that you're assuming that all things are equal.

    In certain film genres black characters are disproportionate killed off.

    When the very first details and trailers for First Class came out and Darwin was revealed as a character myself and others said they were going to find a way to kill off Darwin...A bunch of other posters were acting like we were being quick to judge or paranoid, but low and behold the mutant who's only power is NOT to die ended up dying in the film.

    Same goes for Chronicle, people saw that coming from a mile away.

    "The Black guy in the group dying" is a tired and racist film troupe and many are just sick and tired of seeing it. I'm so sick of it that if I get even a hint of that in a film trailer I wont support the film.

    As for First Class not not "Preaching about Civil Rights"...The film actually should have touched on it at least once. I don't think it should have a been a major plot point but it should have at least been mentioned seeing as how a major theme of the film (And the X-Men as a franchise) is the fight for equal rights for minority groups.
    Quoted for the ever lovin truth.

  10. #6625
    Forever Hooligan Genki Sudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    Kasper Cole and I are discussing the merits of Icon/Martian Manhunter crossover and the implications that could have
    And I enjoyed every post of it, except seeing as how Static was treated I am so jaded now I'd hope they never use another Milestone character. It was like that South Park episode where they accused Spielberg and Lucas of raping Indiana Jones
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  11. #6626
    Psychological violence Moose100's Avatar
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    That's just incorrect. It;s common knowledge that Prof X was modeled after MLK AND Malcom X. The X-men serve as an metaphor for hatred and bigotry.(Though if they are doing it well can be debated>) How one says this isn't under civil rights is beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelly_warrior_princess View Post
    No it wasn't built on civil rights. It was built on hatred & fear, thats not the same thing as being based on civil rights. See the civil rights was a specific thing, not a stand in term for any sort of bigotry whatsoever. Secondly, the civil rights movement was not about executing the people who were different & then interning those who they could capture by force. However thats was the exact plight of the native north americans, with the trail of tears.

    Oh & please don't make "privilege" statements, its such an appeal to motive. You don't know who i am, or what my ethnicity is. The fact remains that X-men was never about the civil rights movement & there is a more accurate time period to which one could make a connection.



    Look mate, i'm not going to write you a 30 page essay on the topic. In fact come to think about it, i'm not really saying anything that requires back up. If there is some specific piece of the stastement you need clarrification on, please tell me & i'll do my best to show you, but i'm not clarrifying my entire statement for you... It'd take 30 pages & i don't really think you are all that interested in self education.

  12. #6627
    Psychological violence Moose100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Has anyone said race if the overwhelming factor that hinders certain characters from succeeding? No. No-one has said that. Have I said race ISN'T the over-whelming factor? YES. Have others agreed? Hard to tell... I have seen plenty of posts doing everything to AVOID answering a simple yes or no question. Yes. I have seen posts saying "is anyone saying that?" (but again, when asked, no-one ACTUALLY says it's NOT the overwhelming factor). Which begs the question = why? Why is no poster willing to actually second the idea/or state their stance on the question: "is it or is it not the overwhelming factor"? You tell me; or better yet, just simply answer: do you think race is the predominant/over-whelming factor that hinders a character's chances of succeeding? It's honestly just a yes or no answer.


    Why is it, when discussing "minorities and other issues in comics" is black males the only thing posts seem to want to talk about the majority of the time? I never said Marvel's three black characters is enough. I'm saying Marvel diversity (which, shockingly, houses more than just black males) is very good. And it is. Women. LGBT. Ethnicities. Nationalities. This is all diversity.

    Also, why do you assume I'm privileged? Just because I don't like or imagine the word as one giant racist place? Just because I look at Marvel's diversity and applaud it? Is being positive and optimistic a privilege these days?


    No-one hates Black Panther? Really? Some Storm fans would BEG to differ. I would assume all characters have fans that can't stand them (even obscure ones). Me? I can't stand Steve Rogers; and recently Traitorine and Beastocrite (just made that second one up right now, it's brilliant!). That said... where did I state fans hate Storm and Black Panther? The Storm part especially surprises me; considering what a massive fan I am of her.
    Everything from you saying "I dont think the world is one giant racist place" to "why do you all talk about blacks so much" is something that we weren't talking about and that you brought into the conversation. All of these are indicators that you are insulated in a bubble of privilege and have little to no racial awareness at all. Secondly, stop moving the goal posts. If you want to talk about other minorities please do so. But here you are leaking your hostilities and biases into the conversation. Stay on topic will ya?

    Also the fact you make these statements tells me you don't think highly of those that exemplify racially aware lines of thought. I.e. you're painting the folks in this board with the same monolithic brush.

    You're the same dude who listed a bunch white characters and called it diversity. All of these things point to you being more of a privileged person. At the same time I won't let you twist peoples words around and be out and out dishonest.

    Man where is that ignore button...
    Last edited by Moose100; 05-13-2012 at 10:19 PM.

  13. #6628

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    Im glad for it. I mean a lot of BS statements have been made about minorities being huge homophobes...and its just an excuse to divide civil rights movements.

    And the X-men were heavily influenced..intentionally or not..by the civil rights movement..at the time..and it was clearly African Americans..who couldnt even eat at the same table or use the same public facilities as whites..

    but I agree Modern day X_men are as far removed from that as possible. I dont even think its a gay analogy anymore. Its the only way Isolating oneself..on an island and making one a power onto itself and hunting IE killing ones enemies preemptively is even remotely seen as feasible ideology.

    The X_men are Fascists.

    Fascism (play /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical education, and eugenics.
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  14. #6629
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    Oh I'm all for equal marriage, it's just...a halo? Really? They couldn't put a pin or something? There are already people who think the man is the messiah.

  15. #6630
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genki Sudo View Post
    And I enjoyed every post of it, except seeing as how Static was treated I am so jaded now I'd hope they never use another Milestone character. It was like that South Park episode where they accused Spielberg and Lucas of raping Indiana Jones
    Yeah I understand your hesitancy completely and while I think Cornell could do Icon some justice I have a feeling that an editorial monkeywrench might come along and screw it up, so I'm real wary

    like it was cool to see Fuji in superboy but it was just a shot of him as a NOWHERE goon so far and idk what the future will hold, or if i"ll see my favorite gaseous sumo wrestler ever again
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

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