Minorities and Other Issues in Comics Thread/Community III

[Vibranium]

It's an issue of GENRE.

The "Black guy dies" thing has LONG been a trope of horror films, even the people who MAKE these films have pointed out that it trope for a long time and only recently (within the last 15 years) have some film makers started going away from that.

Scream 2 was actually going to play with that trope by having the first two characters in the film to die be black, but at the end you were supposed to learn that the killers were also black, but the script leaked online so they changed it at the last moment.

really? I know Wes Craven wrote three or four different endings...I liked that Billys mom was involved

[Genki Sudo]

Has anyone said race if the overwhelming factor that hinders certain characters from succeeding? No. No-one has said that. Have I said race ISN'T the over-whelming factor? YES. Have others agreed? Hard to tell... I have seen plenty of posts doing everything to AVOID answering a simple yes or no question. Yes. I have seen posts saying "is anyone saying that?" (but again, when asked, no-one ACTUALLY says it's NOT the overwhelming factor). Which begs the question = why? Why is no poster willing to actually second the idea/or state their stance on the question: "is it or is it not the overwhelming factor"? You tell me; or better yet, just simply answer: do you think race is the predominant/over-whelming factor that hinders a character's chances of succeeding? It's honestly just a yes or no answer.

Yes, Milestone through DC put out Xombi last year but a a-list team and it was canned before it even came out due to it having a korean american lead. It was a book that could have either fit in with Vertigo or the current "Dark" line that DC is hyping up( that features a all white team btw that I'm told at some point will finally add minorities ), what really gets me is that the same people who champion Animal Man are the same folks( well most of them ) who looked down at Xombi for being a book that's not superhero fare..................just like Animal Man. But you know he's a semi well adjusted white male with a almost picture perfect white family( I even remember when people freaked out when someone suggested Vixen should join the cast for a bit )

Why is it, when discussing "minorities and other issues in comics" is black males the only thing posts seem to want to talk about the majority of the time?

I mentioned Xombi

I never said Marvel's three black characters is enough. I'm saying Marvel diversity (which, shockingly, houses more than just black males) is very good. And it is. Women. LGBT. Ethnicities. Nationalities. This is all diversity.

That is true but only one of those was the topic of this particular conversation

Also, why do you assume I'm privileged? Just because I don't like or imagine the word as one giant racist place? Just because I look at Marvel's diversity and applaud it? Is being positive and optimistic a privilege these days?

Optimistic no but when you also act like there's no problem and just all around aloofness points us in that direction

No-one hates Black Panther? Really? Some Storm fans would BEG to differ. I would assume all characters have fans that can't stand them (even obscure ones). Me? I can't stand Steve Rogers; and recently Traitorine and Beastocrite (just made that second one up right now, it's brilliant!). That said... where did I state fans hate Storm and Black Panther? The Storm part especially surprises me; considering what a massive fan I am of her.

The thing is that a lot of fans of Storm don't even "see her as black" hence why they flipped out when she married T'Challa and even a quick glance at any Storm thread in the x-boards usually end with "which random white guy should Storm have married instead". They don't want to take the time to read up on T'Challa or even listen to someone talk about him in a positive light, they mask their "how dare that black bastard remind me she's a woman of color!" with "he's a gary sue" or the often used "he sucks aaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!"

[Kieran_Frost]

It's an issue of GENRE.
The "Black guy dies" thing has LONG been a trope of horror films, even the people who MAKE these films have pointed out that it trope for a long time and only recently (within the last 15 years) have some film makers started going away from that.
Scream 2 was actually going to play with that trope by having the first two characters in the film to die be black, but at the end you were supposed to learn that the killers were also black, but the script leaked online so they changed it at the last moment.

REALLY? Was Mickey originally cast as a black actor; and they replaced him; or was it not Mickey? Was Gale's camera meant to be the original murder? Mickey's "motive" could easily have been given to the camera man/as a reporter she would have met him.

Would Unforgiven (1992) "count" as emulating the trope? Or does that not count, because a) Morgan Freeman is in it plenty BEFORE that happens and b) it wasn't so much "the black guy died first" as "the best friend died to motive the protagonist"?

[Kasper Cole]

REALLY? Was Mickey originally cast as a black actor; and they replaced him; or was it not Mickey? Was Gale's camera meant to be the original murder? Mickey's "motive" could easily have been given to the camera man/as a reporter she would have met him.

As I remember it the original killers were supposed to be Hallie, the cameraman and Mrs. Loomis. The one of the first people to die in the film were supposed to be the ex of one of the killers. That's also why the cameraman's departure in the film seemed so sudden.

Would Unforgiven (1992) "count" as emulating the trope? Or does that not count, because a) Morgan Freeman is in it plenty BEFORE that happens and b) it wasn't so much "the black guy died first" as "the best friend died to motive the protagonist"?

Well for one Unforgiven isn't a horror film.

I'd say it wouldn't count because it was a well developed character whose death had genuine meaning. That's why you rarely see anyone complain about that film.

Usually when people complain it's a case where the character is treated as a token and then suddenly killed off.

[wyokid]

IDK about you guys, but I have friends boycotting the new movie because Spider-Man isn't black.

[Vibranium]

Your friends are stupid

[Kieran_Frost]

Yes, Milestone through DC put out Xombi last year but a a-list team and it was canned before it even came out due to it having a korean american lead. It was a book that could have either fit in with Vertigo or the current "Dark" line that DC is hyping up( that features a all white team btw that I'm told at some point will finally add minorities ), what really gets me is that the same people who champion Animal Man are the same folks( well most of them ) who looked down at Xombi for being a book that's not superhero fare..................just like Animal Man. But you know he's a semi well adjusted white male with a almost picture perfect white family( I even remember when people freaked out when someone suggested Vixen should join the cast for a bit )
I mentioned Xombi

Ah, alas I am not a DC man; my knowledge is limited to 616 Marvel. Apologies. I have heard DC often has a lot more successfully issues promoting diversity than Marvel (or including it at all). But obviously I have no knowledge to agree or disagree in that field.

[ref. why is it black males is the only "diversity" that matters?] That is true but only one of those was the topic of this particular conversation

Yes and no. I've been accused of "thinking 3 black males if all that's needed" when I never said that. I said DIVERSITY is great at Marvel; which includes more than just black males. And this thread is called "minorities"; which again means women, LGBT, etc.

Optimistic no but when you also act like there's no problem and just all around aloofness points us in that direction

I never said race isn't an issue with some fandom (it is); I just don't think it's an overwhelming issue that stands in the way of a character of colour succeeding. I don't think Black Panther: Man Without Fear could be saved or cancelled due to the minority (and I do believe it is a small minority at that) of fans who just don't like black men.

The thing is that a lot of fans of Storm don't even "see her as black" hence why they flipped out when she married T'Challa and even a quick glance at any Storm thread in the x-boards usually end with "which random white guy should Storm have married instead". They don't want to take the time to read up on T'Challa or even listen to someone talk about him in a positive light, they mask their "how dare that black bastard remind me she's a woman of color!" with "he's a gary sue" or the often used "he sucks aaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!"

I think the reasons many Storm fans didn't like the marriage is far more complex than "it reminds them Storm is black." I do think Storm being black is a major reason the writer wanted her to marry T'Challa. If that makes sense? And while Claremont did lay the ground work of "Storm is all races"; I'm sure 99% of her fans do accept she is black. I was a huge fan of the marriage when it started (Storm got to be a Queen, AWESOME!!!) but the way it was handled... just disappointed me. And it's just gotten to the point it can't be salvaged. So I now hope it ends. That said I still very much enjoy T'Challa character (minus his treatment of Storm); and would happily support a new series. My dream: Storm divorces T'Challa, T'Challa gets a team book of science by Hickman. That would make me very happy.

[Kasper Cole]

IDK about you guys, but I have friends boycotting the new movie because Spider-Man isn't black.

[wyokid]

ROFL! To be fair, the new film still looks awful.

I love this one. I agree though that Cera as Shaft would be hilarious!

[Mecegirl]

IDK about you guys, but I have friends boycotting the new movie because Spider-Man isn't black.

I haven't heard of anyone else doing that.

[Froggy]

Genxorcist is pretty gd....y'all shud shek it out.

http://www.genxorcist.com/gx_cabal_12.html

Though 2 b honest d art nds sum improvement but we like d writing.

yeah the art isn't anything to write home about but the actual storylines have been pretty dope. The transition the main story went through had all kinds of cool stuff and great characters ALTHOUGH ALTHOUGH

my fav character isn't in there anymore

My bad gang, I was just like "really"

what'd I miss?

you always have something cool to say

[Kieran_Frost]

As I remember it the original killers were supposed to be Hallie, the cameraman and Mrs. Loomis. The one of the first people to die in the film were supposed to be the ex of one of the killers. That's also why the cameraman's departure in the film seemed so sudden.

I'd be PISS*D OFF if I was that actor; losing out because someone leaked the script! That does explain the cameraman's sudden "I'm leaving" bit. BOO!!!

Well for one Unforgiven isn't a horror film.
I'd say it wouldn't count because it was a well developed character whose death had genuine meaning. That's why you rarely see anyone complain about that film.
Usually when people complain it's a case where the character is treated as a token and then suddenly killed off.

unforgiven (1992) is AMAZING so I'm pleased it doesn't fall into that; and I see that it's not "who dies first" so much as "the random black guy, who had no real reason to be there BUT to die" issue. Is the issue in horror movies that men, in general, die first; since most horror movies it's a woman who is the "lead"?

Article on this: In the past this perception was because there were few black leads in big-budget films outside of those that focused specifically on race or used it to make a point. Historical moviemakers were generally writing to white audiences, so it was natural (at least in their opinion) for whites to get more screen time. And if the writers throw in a Token Minority to give the cast more believable racial balance, who do you think is going to die first, them or the folks who have a bigger role in the script?

As black actors became more common in significant roles, this trope found new ways to stay relevant. Films would take a Scary Black Man, turn him into The Big Guy, and kill him off to show how strong their monster is. In horror films, the afflicted main character might have a sassy Black Best Friend that gets killed off to show that this is no laughing matter.

[Froggy]

i'm not really interested in the debate Kieran but let's avoid using tvtropes in this

just a personal thing

[AgPhoenix]

IDK about you guys, but I have friends boycotting the new movie because Spider-Man isn't black.

Not happening here. I'm glad Glover didn't get the part, especially in the case that Amazing Spider Man sucks balls AND/or flops. Something like that could kill his career for years.

[Kasper Cole]

unforgiven (1992) is AMAZING so I'm pleased it doesn't fall into that; and I see that it's not "who dies first" so much as "the random black guy, who had no real reason to be there BUT to die" issue. Is the issue in horror movies that men, in general, die first; since most horror movies it's a woman who is the "lead"?

Pretty much...

Article on this: In the past this perception was because there were few black leads in big-budget films outside of those that focused specifically on race or used it to make a point. Historical moviemakers were generally writing to white audiences, so it was natural (at least in their opinion) for whites to get more screen time. And if the writers throw in a Token Minority to give the cast more believable racial balance, who do you think is going to die first, them or the folks who have a bigger role in the script?

As black actors became more common in significant roles, this trope found new ways to stay relevant. Films would take a Scary Black Man, turn him into The Big Guy, and kill him off to show how strong their monster is. In horror films, the afflicted main character might have a sassy Black Best Friend that gets killed off to show that this is no laughing matter.

As I said in my earlier post it IS getting better, but it's still a problem.

Even in those cases where they're attempted to use it as a means of showing the villain as a huge threat it doesn't have the intended effect because those characters are rarely development beyond being "scary black man" or "sassy black best friend".

Off the top of my head the ONLY instance I can think of where that worked was Deep Blue Sea. Sam Jackson was hands down the biggest star in that film and one of only two black characters and he shockingly died very early in the film and his death gave things more of a sense of danger. I'd say though effect had less to do with his race and more to do with the fact that he was the biggest star in the film and it was promoted as if HE was the star.

And even then the bigger question is why do the black characters HAVE to die. As I said before in most of those film scripts the characters could be ANY race, but they clearly write certain character to be black and die.

And for the record the white female lead that's a virgin is also a tired horror film trope that i'd like to either see go away or get tweaked.