Minorities and Other Issues in Comics Thread/Community III

[StoneGold]

Nobody cared when it was done for Alicia Masters in the FF movies. There wasn't much flack when Kingpin got turned into a brother.

Oh, yes there was. You've forgotten.

[StoneGold]

Thats because Sam as an actor is known for Fury BAdassery. His resume is loaded with that...he didnt have to bring it. Everybody already knows. (Not counting those who think Black men are never bad asses or can be deadly scary)

And to be honest (not racist) white badassery has always come off the back of a minority. A white hero aint a bad ass till he beats up some big black dude or foreigner. Its part of the myth.

ROCKY
RAMBO ( beat up a country of minorities)


You name the movie. Its been done to death. And Im not concerned with Blacks lightening their skin..its a sad commentary on how prejudice this and other nations still are..that dark skin is considered evil and unattractive.

But notice no one brings up Tanning. or Hair Straightening. Butt Implants. Removing a third of your stomach so a woman can look like a little girl. Which is a whole other psychological issue. MEN that want little girls..its the #1 complaint Asian women have about interracial dating.

Men straight up want them to giggle like little girls and wear girls clothing.

That may be overstating things just a tad. Just as an example, Chuck Norris. Was brought in as the white badass for Bruce Lee to beat the snot out of. Mostly beat up white people in his movies where he was the hero, Missing in Action aside.

Chuck Bronson not only killed just about every people on the face of the earth, he played about half of them as well. But he made his first bones killing Nazis.

Same with Lee Marvin. You literally do not get any more badass than Lee Marvin. Such a thing does not exist. Which is the real thing -- there are no more badass actors, period. Including Jackson. You get actors who play badasses, maybe. But then you get guys like Marvin, who not only embodied pure badassness, but fought in the trenches of Guadalcanal, was awarded the Purple Heart. Basically, fuck John Wayne. John Wayne was a fucking poser. Liberty Valance was the real fucking deal. Not to mention, dude was advocating for gay rights in the 60s.



Look at that mug. Guys like Marvin, Bronson, they don't let them be actors anymore. Not leads, anyway.




And just because you forgot... First Blood, all Rambo did was kill white people. Well, technically white person. Everyone else died from their own stupidity. But all he did was fight white people. He didn't win Vietnam single handedly until the second film. That, and you can't kill a country of minorities. Because then they are the majority.

[StoneGold]

this proves the fandom likes us negroes "in our place"....behind the white heroes

Not really? I mean, Fury was behind the white heroes. And there was a decent-sized freakout over Kingpin, somewhat less over Alicia, if only because you had a greater focus on Sue, what with Byrne and all.

And then you kind of have the opposite in FF2, I don't think anyone complained about Larry Fishburn as Silver Surfer. Well, I don't think I got too vocal about it, but I might have a little, but more because I always read Surfer in my head as more of a tenor. Almost feminine. No problem with a black actor doing it, just they got the wrong one.


And believe me, when Superman comes closer to hitting someone will bitch about Perry. It's just too early, and there's other stuff to bitch about.

That said, I can understand why they didn't, because it tilts things too heavily toward Iron Man, but War Machine probably could have been used on the team.

[wyokid]

I'm not saying I agree with him, but I understand what he's saying, and there's some truth to it. As in, black Nick Fury as leader of an elite unit in WWII... it doesn't really work. And that's the Nick Fury he wants to see. Wanting to see the Nick Fury created by Kirby and revolutionized by Steranko, instead of Hitch photoreferencing Jackson, doesn't necessarily make one racist. For that matter, neither do capitalizing White and Black, but somehow, they do tend to go together, but that's something else entirely. Basically, it's possible it's just Old Nerd argument -- this isn't my version of the character, what the hell? And that could be just because they cast, oh, let's say Nic Cage.

But Byrne has a weird history with it too. Still, it's also not like making racist comments outside of comics precludes one from being a legend for the material that was actually printed decades ago. In the unlikely event that Stan suddenly started ranting about, oh, let's say Gypsies (using them because a: I don't believe a lot of Roma post, and b: Stan went to the Gypsy origin a disproportionate amount, although there are other reasons for that), it doesn't make him not the guy who co-created Spider-Man, the FF, etc.

It was more of "how does he not know of Ultimate Fury", but you covered it quite nicely.

I'd love to see Nic Cage in the Marvel Cinematic Universe!

[StoneGold]

It was more of "how does he not know of Ultimate Fury", but you covered it quite nicely.

I'd love to see Nic Cage in the Marvel Cinematic Universe!

As Luke Cage, natch!

Seriously though, my personal thing? The movies tend to work best when the main hero has a decent resemblance for the guy in the book. Once you get past the main hero, you can play around with things a bit. Honestly, it's a little more awesome if guy looks like he does on the page. In the same way I'm not going to complain too loud that Jeff Bridges looks nothing like how Obadiah Stane looked in the comic, and really had a completely different relationship with Tony, I don't care if Heimdall is black, or if Hogun is a bit more Asian looking than Chuck Bronson, or Duncan as Kingpin (although different musical choice would have been better, just to keep from playing into black gangster stereotype), or whatever. Honestly, Jackson as Fury doesn't even figure into it, just because there's already Jackson as Fury in the Ultimate stuff.

Still, I have to admit, I liked it a little better when Ultimate Alliance used original Nick instead of Sam, just because he can get a little crazier. Ultimate Fury is a bit more composed. Nick Fury is immortal WWII sergeant turned secret agent. Which I don't think would have worked as well in the movie, to be honest. But video game, different beast.

[Blade X]

Yeah, but he's being presented as the same character from another set of comics.

And less lazy writing, so much as smart marketing. New characters don't gain traction in today's market. Use the name of an old one, especially if you can manage not to jettison the old one, so you have fewer people freaking out, you've got more of a chance. Because no way in hell would Miles Morales have gotten traction if he were Arachnid-Boy.

Although to make things clear, bad marketing to replace Ultimate Pete with a new, minority character to begin with. Because new minority characters tend not to sell. Worked, but going against prevailing logic.

The difference between Miles and Ultimate/movie Fury (or the difference between 616 Nick Fury JR and Ultimate/movie Fury), is that Miles is a brand new character who takes up the mantle/name of an existing character, while Ultimate/movie Fury is an old character with a race change. In my book, that's lazy writing.

[Blade X]

Nobody cared when it was done for Alicia Masters in the FF movies. There wasn't much flack when Kingpin got turned into a brother.

Nobody seems to give a rat's ass that a black actor will be playing Perry White.

It's only when you switch out major characters that anybody pitches a fit.

Not counting the Hiemdall net freakout.

At this point, Sam Jackson is a bigger cultural signifier of cool than Kurt Russel is.

I (and some others that I have spoken to) hated all of those changes. Again, it's lazy writing and smacks of half@$$ed/halfhearted effort of creating diversity. Notice that all of the white characters that you listed who had their race change are either villains,normal supporting characters,or 3rd string characters who can't support/carry their own comic.

[Blade X]

That is pretty much why I think they used him. He does have star power.

They most likely cast him because they used his likeness without his permission. If he wasn't cast, he might have sued them (and rightfully so) for using his likeness without his permission.

[StoneGold]

I (and some others that I have spoken to) hated all of those changes. Again, it's lazy writing and smacks of half@$$ed/halfhearted effort of creating diversity. Notice that all of the white characters that you listed who had their race change are either villains,normal supporting characters,or 3rd string characters who can't support/carry their own comic.

That's casting, not writing.

[Blade X]

Lost in all this iswhat Marvel is doing with "Classic" Nick right now.

A Garth Ennis Fury 6 issue mini chronicling his adventures in Indochina during the 50's.

The kind of realistic tale of soldiers that Ennis loves to do (he isnt a big fan of superheroes).

I wonder if that isnt the way forward to a compromise with the character.

Classic Nick gets to do Steve Canyon-esq period pieces/war stories and Sam L. Fury gets to run around in the present day Marvel universe.

IMO, even though it was a contrived and a predictable story, I think that Marcus Johnson/Nick Fury JR is the perfect compromise.

[Blade X]

That's casting, not writing.

But it happened first in the Ultimate comics. Which means it's the writing.

[StoneGold]

I'll ask the same thing I always do -- what makes writing lazy? Because it's a BS term. You want to say you don't like something, you want to give it more of an objective feel, so you call it lazy. But it's a bullshit term. Has no meaning. Can mean whatever the hell you want it to.

[Mecegirl]

They most likely cast him because they used his likeness without his permission. If he wasn't cast, he might have sued them (and rightfully so) for using his likeness without his permission.

That happened sometime ago actually. Blame Mr. Hitch. The original U. Fury did not look like Jackson but then he was changed to look like him in The Ultimates, it was then when Jackson contacted Marvel about a movie deal. That was in the early 2000's. But the fact that they decided to use his likeness in the comics in the first place speaks to his star power.

Jackson, 63, has been a fan of Fury since the character first appeared in 1963′s “Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos,” by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Of course, Nicholas Joseph Fury was then a white, cigar-chomping World War II hero with both eyes intact.

The character has undergone several incarnations since, not least of which is comic artist Bryan Hitch’s depiction in 2002′s “The Ultimates #1″: A bald, African American general modeled on Samuel L. Jackson.

“It was kind of weird,” Jackson said. “I just happened to be in a comic store, and I picked up the comic because I saw my face. And I was like, ‘Wait a minute, I’m not sure I remember giving somebody permission to use my image.’”

The comic itself even noted the likeness in a panel in which the Ultimates discuss who would portray them in a hypothetical movie. Fury answers, “Why, Mister Samuel L. Jackson, of course. That’s not even open to debate.”

Stunned, Jackson approached Marvel.

“They were kind of like, ‘Yeah, we are planning on making movies, and we do hope you’ll be a part of them,’” he recalls.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2012/...-nick-fury/#/0

[wyokid]

I can only imagine how Robert Downey Jr. reacted to that scene

[FanboyStranger]

There wasn't much flack when Kingpin got turned into a brother.

The thing about that is that I don't think there's a current actor who was more tailor-made to play the Kingpin than Duncan. There's big guys, to be sure, but there's no one else who actually have the chops and the charisma to flesh the Kingpin into the three-dimensional character he's been in DD over the past three decades. Maybe fat Brando in the late '70s could have pulled it off, but he would have really had to hit the gym to give the impression that he's a physical bad-ass as well as a mental one.

At this point, Sam Jackson is a bigger cultural signifier of cool than Kurt Russel is.

You shut your mouth. There's no one cooler than Kurt Russell.

I have absolutely no problem with Sam Jackson as Nick Fury. Sam's a very good actor who has been typecast for certain roles over the past decade, and I do think he embodies the idea of Nick Fury, if not the execution. (Because nothing is going to compare to Steranko Nick Fury.) The only qualm I have is that Ultimate Nick Fury just sort of appeared, morphed into Sam Jackson's likeness, and that morphing pretty much was the extent of character development. You just sort of associate Ultimate Fury with Sam Jackson, and kind of shorthand seems lazy to me. That said, Jackson's been great in the movies so far, so if the non-comic book reading public thinks of Nick Fury as Black, then cool. I just wish the actual comics would spend some more effort soldifying that.