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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theozilla View Post
    Aya's turning was very well built over the show and her fall all the more poignant.
    I don't think it was well built up at all. The push and pull of the feelings between her and Razer was well built up, but the "scorned woman turns evil" twist was heavy-handed, stereotypical, and pissed away a lot of the dramatic tension and character development that had gone into building their relationship.

  2. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    I don't think it was well built up at all. The push and pull of the feelings between her and Razer was well built up, but the "scorned woman turns evil" twist was heavy-handed, stereotypical, and pissed away a lot of the dramatic tension and character development that had gone into building their relationship.
    It wasn't simply being a "scorned woman" that made her turn, it was the inexperience Aya had with processing emotions and being unable to compartmentalize all the new feelings she was experiencing, her conversation with Hal highlighted. And her sympathy for the Manhunters was foreshadowed from the very beginning of the second season when the Guardians ordered her to be disassembled simply going beyond her programming and was further built up over the season. Aya has extreme intellectual maturity but a child like emotional maturity.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theozilla View Post
    Aya has extreme intellectual maturity but a child like emotional maturity.
    So do most teenaged girls, but they don't turn evil (at least not mass-murderously evil) when their boyfriends dump them. I know they tried to lay the groundwork for it, but the actual payoff still felt forced and cliched.

    As for the Manhunters, sShe tried to get them to actualize their potential and develop as sentient beings; to become something more than machines. Once she saw they were incapable of that, she flat-out rejected them. So the idea of her taking up their cause is hardly a natural outcome to her storyline.
    Last edited by kalorama; 02-03-2013 at 12:01 AM.

  4. #349
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    Has Aya actually become evil? I seriously hope she doesn't devolve into a cliched, universe conquering villain.
    Thus do I write the first chapter of my new scripture. And the first verse is "Let it all burn."

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  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    So do most teenaged girls, but they don't turn evil (at least not mass-murderously evil) when their boyfriends dump them. I know they tried to lay the groundwork for it, but the actual payoff still felt forced and cliched.

    As for the Manhunters, sShe tried to get them to actualize their potential and develop as sentient beings; to become something more than machines. Once she saw they were incapable of that, she flat-out rejected them. So the idea of her taking up their cause is hardly a natural outcome to her storyline.
    Aya's ability to deal with emotions is even more immature than an teenager, she literally has only begun experiencing emotions for the first time in her life. Aya rejected the Manhunters because her view at that time viewed emotions as a positive (and even then she was still peeved by Razer's robot disparaging remarks) but she still pitied them. Because Aya literally could not process the contradiction of emotions Razer caused for and the pain they caused, and Hal's advice on compartmentalization just further cemented her growing view of the illogical contradictions caused by emotions, thus pushing her to come to Manhunters conclusion of emotions being unnecessary and chaotic.

  6. #351

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackphoenix View Post
    Razer, you idiot! If he hadn't broken Aya's heart (and mine along with it! *sniff*),.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    Yeah that didn't make me a fan of Razer.
    Why is Razer at fault here? His tact was bad, but he did raise a legitimate point.

  7. #352
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Looking at Aya's situation I can see how some would view it as a "Woman In Refrigerators" moment. For one she's the only female member of Hal's group. She had a romantic subplot with Razer. She ended up being evil because the dude broke her heart. This kind of thing would have been overlooked had the show bothered to bring in more female members.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  8. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    Why is Razer at fault here? His tact was bad, but he did raise a legitimate point.
    Depends on which point you mean. The one about shutting out everything else to focus on the mission. Or the one about how he couldn't love her because she was just a machine (despite the fact that he already told her he loved her)? Because, given the outcome, you can't really consider one without considering the other.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theozilla View Post
    Aya's ability to deal with emotions is even more immature than an teenager, she literally has only begun experiencing emotions for the first time in her life. Aya rejected the Manhunters because her view at that time viewed emotions as a positive (and even then she was still peeved by Razer's robot disparaging remarks) but she still pitied them. Because Aya literally could not process the contradiction of emotions Razer caused for and the pain they caused, and Hal's advice on compartmentalization just further cemented her growing view of the illogical contradictions caused by emotions, thus pushing her to come to Manhunters conclusion of emotions being unnecessary and chaotic.
    Yeah, I understand all the in-story rationales. I just don't find them particularly convincing or compellingly executed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    Looking at Aya's situation I can see how some would view it as a "Woman In Refrigerators" moment. For one she's the only female member of Hal's group. She had a romantic subplot with Razer. She ended up being evil because the dude broke her heart. This kind of thing would have been overlooked had the show bothered to bring in more female members.
    I don't view it as a "women in refrigerators" moment. In fact, I find the whole WIF meme to be wildly overblown and reactionary. I just think it's a weak spot in the generally solid writing on the show and an incongruous character turn for the sake of plot convenience.
    Last edited by kalorama; 02-03-2013 at 11:29 AM.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Yeah, I understand all the in-story rationales. I just don't find them particularly convincing or compellingly executed.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point then.

  11. #356

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Depends on which point you mean. The one about shutting out everything else to focus on the mission. Or the one about how he couldn't love her because she was just a machine (despite the fact that he already told her he loved her)? Because, given the outcome, you can't really consider one without considering the other.
    Leaning more on the latter, really. He was disturbed by that discovery back in episode nine, but it was never brought up again. It would make sense for him to be falling in love with the "re-incarnation", and his act of self-discovery and telling Aya the truth is justified. Not everyone that says "I love you" truly means it.

    Granted, the whole "you're just a machine" was cruel. But I see most people are vilifying him because of the rejection alone AND its unexpected outcome. If anything I cut Aya less slack for her rampage than others do. She says there's nothing emotional about it, but she's obviously upset and angry.

  12. #357
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post

    I don't view it as a "women in refrigerators" moment. In fact, I find the whole WIF meme to be wildly overblown and reactionary. I just think it's a weak spot in the generally solid writing on the show and an incongruous character turn for the sake of plot convenience.
    Agreed in that turning evil because some angsty dick broke her heart did felt like lazy storytelling.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    Leaning more on the latter, really. He was disturbed by that discovery back in episode nine, but it was never brought up again. It would make sense for him to be falling in love with the "re-incarnation", and his act of self-discovery and telling Aya the truth is justified. Not everyone that says "I love you" truly means it.
    Yeah. but, as you noted, he figured out the reasons for his attraction to Aya a while ago, and yet he continued to be attracted to her. You'd think if it was just her resemblance to his dead love, then figuring that out would have cooled his jets some. The fact that he continued to have feelings for her even after the realization suggests that there's more to it than simple transference.

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    Granted, the whole "you're just a machine" was cruel. But I see most people are vilifying him because of the rejection alone AND its unexpected outcome. If anything I cut Aya less slack for her rampage than others do. She says there's nothing emotional about it, but she's obviously upset and angry.
    Which is exactly why the whole thing feels like a scorned-woman's-revenge plot from a Lifetime movie.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post


    Which is exactly why the whole thing feels like a scorned-woman's-revenge plot from a Lifetime movie.
    She could have made a nice Pink Lantern candidate.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Which is exactly why the whole thing feels like a scorned-woman's-revenge plot from a Lifetime movie.
    But it is not simply scorn if you recall she questioned to Razer right before she “shut down”. She asked what to do when emotions were keeping you from focusing well. And then she looked around the Interceptor at not JUST Razer, but also Kilowog and Hal.

    She didn’t shut down her emotions just because she was in pain. She did it because she was in pain AND she knew it was interfering with her efficacy as a teammate. That’s why she asked Razer how to fix it. Because she wanted to do her best to help her team. Because she has no idea how to compartmentalize and because she knew that the only way she could save her team would be to escape her pain she shut off her emotions. So yes, love is the main factor, but it's her love for everyone.

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