Once Upon A Time (ABC)

[Pro]

Threatening to kill someone isn't the same as doing the deed.

And willing to kill isn't the same as doing the deed either ...
But when someone kidnaps two women and waves a gun at their heads and threatens to kill them if they don't do as he says it's a pretty good bet that the guy is willing to kill.

Were you trying to say he's a good guy?
Because that would be stupid.

[maczero]

And willing to kill isn't the same as doing the deed either ...
But when someone kidnaps two women and waves a gun at their heads and threatens to kill them if they don't do as he says it's a pretty good bet that the guy is willing to kill.

Were you trying to say he's a good guy?
Because that would be stupid.

No. What I'm saying is we don't know for sure he would've killed Snow or Emma if she didn't help him. For a lot of people it's a lot easier to threaten than to actually pull the trigger. Particularly if your victim is helpless.

[Richard Bishop]

But is he a good side character? From what i understood he did some sleazy jobs for the queen in the past.
And in this episode he helped her again to gain wealth so his daughter wouldn't live in poverty.
And in the real world he was willing to kidnap and kill.
He's more a villain than a hero.

I don't look at "Fairyland" Jefferson as a villain. Sure, he helped Regina with a few "jobs", but being an accessory to someone else's wrongdoing does not necessarily make one a villain, depending on the circumstances under which he may have been persuaded to assist her.

In Storybrooke, I look at him as a man longing to return to the world in which he and his daughter were together and happy. Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that...

[Vibranium]

still doesn't make it ok....dude is clearly disturbed

[Pro]

No. What I'm saying is we don't know for sure he would've killed Snow or Emma if she didn't help them. For a lot of people it's a lot easier to threaten than to actually pull the trigger. Particularly if your victim is helpless.

Threatening helpless victims doesn't make him a good guy. Which was the point i was making.

Sure, he helped Regina with a few "jobs", but being an accessory to someone else's wrongdoing does not necessarily make one a villain, depending on the circumstances under which he may have been persuaded to assist her.

He is still responsible for his own actions unless he was tricked into helping her. Didn't get that impression though.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that...

Tons of bad people use that argument to excuse making immoral decisions.

Seemed to me he was shown as someone with an shady past in which he worked for the obvious baddie of the show and then after turning his back on his old life fell for the money again and was betrayed in the process. And then in Storybrook was portrayed as a psychopath whose obsessions led him to kidnap and threaten to kill two women.
Now really does that strike you as someone who'd deserve a happy ending in a faery tale?
Which was my point when people wondered why he didn't get a happy ending in Faerytale land.

[Richard Bishop]

Seemed to me he was shown as someone with an shady past in which he worked for the obvious baddie of the show and then after turning his back on his old life fell for the money again and was betrayed in the process. And then in Storybrook was portrayed as a psychopath whose obsessions led him to kidnap and threaten to kill two women.
Now really does that strike you as someone who'd deserve a happy ending in a faery tale?
Which was my point when people wondered why he didn't get a happy ending in Faerytale land.

Maybe I don't see this as a "black/white" issue but rather one with shades of gray. Good people do bad things all the time, while bad people do have moments where they perform acts of good. Why does he, or any of the characters for that matter, have to fall into "good" or "bad" buckets?

Look at it like this. We know that Snow White was a thief, having stolen from James. Under the assumption that most rational people believe that stealing is wrong, is Snow White a good person or a bad person?

If you answer "bad person", then how can we root for her, in either world, to have a happy ending? If you answer "good person", then you are either saying that stealing is not wrong or that her thievery was somehow justified due to the situation in which she found herself, and if you argue the latter, how is that any different than Jefferson's case?

[Pro]

Why does he, or any of the characters for that matter, have to fall into "good" or "bad" buckets?

The whole premise of the show is based on the evil queen cursing everyone because she couldn't get her happy ending in faerytale land because she's wicked.
The whole series has been about how morality decides your fate in Faerytale land and how this is not the case in the real world.
I thought this was well established for quite a while now. Being wicked gets you screwed over in faerytale land.

[maczero]

Threatening helpless victims doesn't make him a good guy. Which was the point i was making.

I never said he was a "good guy". I just pointed out we had no proof that he was "willing" to kill them. Which is what you did say. Like I said several times, threatening someone isn't the same as doing the deed. He's a kidnapper, stalker and willing to use threats & intimidation to get what he wants but I don't think he would've killed Snow if Emma didn't help him. Maybe you think he would have but there's no proof either way.

[Pro]

there's no proof either way.

Fine.
Me personally? When a deranged person with a shady past waves a gun at two women he kidnapped you bet i'm going to assume he is willing to pull the trigger unless i have a damn good reason to assume otherwise.

[christinereed]

He's got a point. In fairy tales it's only the good guys that get the happy ending. The bad guys get punished.

I thought about this. So far, it seems like only Snow got a happily ever after. Is hers the only one that counts for the curse? I don't know. About the only other one I could think of is Geppetto. He seemed pretty happy in the scenes from fairy tale world, and he had a young boy by his side. I think James may have helped his former fiancee heal her love from Midas' touch. But, Belle is taken from her "beast" (and never returned, based on Gold still blaming the father for her death). Dreamy loses his love and becomes Grumpy. Cinderella pledges her first born to Rumplestilskin and ends up losing her prince.

Not very many happy endings.

But, I think Regina's main concern is that Snow suffer. So, Snow and the people around her have to be miserable, or maybe stuck and hopeless for Regina to feel like she's getting her revenge.

And if we're talking about who did what to whom, remember Red ate her love interest. ;-)

[90'sCartoonMan]

This episode was trippy. Looking forward to seeing the Queen of Hearts' true identity. I liked Emma confessing to Jefferson that she wants to believe, then sucker punching him when his guard is down. She tells herself she was just pretending, but she wasn't.

Not that I really miss him or anything, but what happened to Jimminey Cricket? He was in all of the early episodes, then once his own episode aired, we havent seen him since, just odd

Yeah, isn't he credited as a main character?

[dupersuper]

still doesn't make it ok....dude is clearly disturbed

Well, he's not called The Sane Hatter...

[kalorama]

I thought this was well established for quite a while now. Being wicked gets you screwed over in faerytale land.

I don't see that it's nearly that cut and dried. Neither Snow White nor Prince Charming, as far as we know, were "wicked" in fairyland, but they both got royally (so to speak) screwed over (more than once). I think the real theme of the show is that all actions--good and bad--carry consequences and that the nature of those consequences don't fall neatly into good/bad or black/white. There's a cost, not just to magic, but to making choices of any kind.

[Forseti]

Well, that was an interesting episode. The final scene must've been spoilers:

the little magic Mr. Gold was going to work.

end of spoilers If there ever was any doubt he's playing all sides, there can't be any now.

[christinereed]

The girl that played Snow was perfectly cast. I was glad to get this backstory on Snow and Regina.