Once Upon A Time (ABC)

[kalorama]

Hope the evil queen remembers soon so something can happen storywise.

There's all kinds of stuff that can (and almost certainly will) happen without the queen remembering.

[AdamYJ]

Huh. Somehow, I completely missed that juxtaposition.

Really? It's one of the first things I noticed. It's like that in Fables too. In that comic, Snow has seven children (though one of them turned out to be invisible). In general, I believe the rule will be that these characters can't completely escape their archetype. However, said archetypes can be twisted.

Another example would be Jiminy Cricket/Dr. Archie Hopper. In general, Jiminy Cricket would be known for being a sort of moral force, a source of wise counsel and Pinoccchio's self-appointed "conscience". In Storybrook, he's a psychiatrist, which certainly qualifies him as people's counsel. And he's certainly still a moral person and a man of integrity. However, now his situation is calling on him to make more hard choices. Things aren't changed (aside from no longer being an insect) as much as they're complicated.

In general, the big thing seems to be that these characters are who they would be if they were modernised, but also if they missed the boat on their happy ending. Snow White doesn't have her prince because he's lying in a coma. And when we see Geppetto's Storybrook counterpart in the pilot, he talks about how he and his wife were never blessed with children. So, that would mean no little Pinocchio. I kind of think that the solution to the curse may have something to do with helping these characters find "happy endings" in their Storybrook lives.

[kalorama]

I caught all the other ones and the general theme of parallelism. It was just that particular example of the kids standing in for dwarves that slipped by me.

[Jared]

I wasn't sure if I could want to watch a show about fairy tales, myself. But I gave it a shot, and so far, I like it and I don't even feel guilty like I did when I watched Desperate Housewives that first season.

And while I definitely think the fairy tell stuff is real, there is also a pretty clear sense of "what if" ambiguity in how the show is set up and how that part of it is presented.

I really didn't see any ambiguity at all. Joan of Arcadia had some ambiguity about whether she was really talking to God. Life on Mars had some ambiguity (no spoilers, please). The fantasy elements here are presented pretty straight. Hell, the fantasy world is the first one we see in the pilot. Hell, just the clock starting again when Emma decided to stay was a pretty big clue.

Whoever cut Ginnifer Goodwin's hair like that should be brought up on charges.

I like most the cast, but I'm not sold on the kid. Or the The Evil Queen when she's a actually the Evil Queen. She's fine as the mayor, but in the fantasy world her she should act bigger.

There was a giant at the queen's legion of doom meeting, I wonder how he'll translate to the real world. Just a big football player, perhaps? A local barroom tough?

I am bothered wondering why the Queen didn't just strike down, or inflict some curse upon Snow White at the wedding. It didn't seem like anyone there could stop her from doing whatever she wanted. Mind-wiping everyone, including herself, seems like a pretty dumb revenge plan, when she could have just cut a bitch.

I didn't really think of Snow's students standing in for the dwarves. Her class is bigger than seven, so where would the other kids come from?

I wonder if Mr. Gold actually remembers everything, or if he's just playing his new part well.

I'm curious how some characters actually survived their fairy tale stories. Maleficient's defeat in the 'Sleeping Beauty' story was referenced, so shouldn't she be dead? For that matter, doesn't the Evil Queen die at the end of Snow White?

[snarkbunny]

I'm curious how some characters actually survived their fairy tale stories. Maleficient's defeat in the 'Sleeping Beauty' story was referenced, so shouldn't she be dead? For that matter, doesn't the Evil Queen die at the end of Snow White?

Depends on which version of the fairy tale you read. In some of them Snow White just rides away with the prince and lives happily ever after, in some the Queen shows up to the wedding feast and they put the evil Queen in red hot iron shoes and the EQ is forced to dance to death.

[kalorama]

Emma’ is the proxy for the audience, hers are the eyes through which the audience sees what’s going on and, as of now, she’s not a believer. And there’s been nothing presented--within the realm in which her character exists and observes—that qualifies as objective proof that the fairy tell stuff is “real.” That, in and of itself, is a mechanism for maintaining audience ambiguity. Now, whether a particular viewer buys into her skepticism or rejects it is an individual choice, but within the show’s storytelling structure, a mechanism to allow viewers to remain skeptical definitely exists.

[snarkbunny]

Emma’ is the proxy for the audience, hers are the eyes through which the audience sees what’s going on and, as of now, she’s not a believer. And there’s been nothing presented--within the realm in which her character exists and observes—that qualifies as objective proof that the fairy tell stuff is “real.” That, in and of itself, is a mechanism for maintaining audience ambiguity. Now, whether a particular viewer buys into her skepticism or rejects it is an individual choice, but within the show’s storytelling structure, a mechanism to allow viewers to remain skeptical definitely exists.

Interesting point, kalorama. I would argue that to date, the audience has been in a third party point of view with an omniscient narrator, rather than Emma as proxy. I point to the multiplicity of scenes without Emma, where we are gaining access to information that Emma does not have.

From an ambiguity of whether or not the non-modern world is "real", I would say that TV series like "The Odyssey" did it much better than OUAT is doing, as did Lost, so I think that ambiguity on the "reality" is not intended as a major component.

[kalorama]

The fact that she’s not in every single scene doesn’t preclude her from being the eyes through which the audience relates to the story. The story is set up so that she’s an outsider in a “closed” environment, just as the audience is. As such, there will be things she’s not party to. But she’s still the doorway through which the audience was ushered into this town/world. And, in any case, nothing that’s happened outside her view (in the “real” world) has offered any objective proof that Henry’s story is true.

(And I thought Lost did a lousy job of it, so much so that, at least after the first season, it didn't even appear like they were even trying.)

[snarkbunny]

And, in any case, nothing that’s happened outside her view (in the “real” world) has offered any objective proof that Henry’s story is true.

(And I thought Lost did a lousy job of it, so much so that, at least after the first season, it didn't even appear like they were even trying.)

Well, I could argue that the clock starting to move was proof(Since there was pretty of reactions showing that the clock moving was surprising and unexpected), but I would agree that it's by no means conclusive.

I'll bow to your opinion on Lost, since I stopped watching it during the third season, but if you haven't seen it, I think the first two seasons of the Odyssey do an amazing job handling the type of ambiguity you are referring to.

[Jared]

in some the Queen shows up to the wedding feast and they put the evil Queen in red hot iron shoes and the EQ is forced to dance to death.

Holy shit!

[kalorama]

Well, I could argue that the clock starting to move was proof(Since there was pretty of reactions showing that the clock moving was surprising and unexpected), but I would agree that it's by no means conclusive.

The clock starting to move was surprising and unexpected (to the town's citizens), but it didn't really prove anything vis-a-vis Henry's story.

I'll bow to your opinion on Lost, since I stopped watching it during the third season, but if you haven't seen it, I think the first two seasons of the Odyssey do an amazing job handling the type of ambiguity you are referring to.

Well, I bailed not long into season 2 (although I did watch the stray ep here and there afterward), but even by the end of the first one, they seemed to be abandoning any pretense.

[kalorama]

Depends on which version of the fairy tale you read. In some of them Snow White just rides away with the prince and lives happily ever after, in some the Queen shows up to the wedding feast and they put the evil Queen in red hot iron shoes and the EQ is forced to dance to death.

There's an ABBA joke in there somewhere.

[boyhangover]

There's an ABBA joke in there somewhere.

Don't eat the crab dip! YAY-YAYEE!

[AdamYJ]

I like most the cast, but I'm not sold on the kid. Or the The Evil Queen when she's a actually the Evil Queen. She's fine as the mayor, but in the fantasy world her she should act bigger.

I don't know, her acting is pretty big already.

There was a giant at the queen's legion of doom meeting, I wonder how he'll translate to the real world. Just a big football player, perhaps? A local barroom tough?

One of the fun parts is speculating on how the archetypes of fairy tales fit into the archetypes of a small town setting. You can wonder who respective characters are. Like, I wonder who Jack would be. A trouble-making high school kid, maybe. Or you can wonder who the different people you'd find in a small town are. Like, who would be the local librarian? Mother Goose? Scheherazade? Maybe Rapunzel? (I always figured that one of the few things she could do in that tower was read).

I am bothered wondering why the Queen didn't just strike down, or inflict some curse upon Snow White at the wedding. It didn't seem like anyone there could stop her from doing whatever she wanted. Mind-wiping everyone, including herself, seems like a pretty dumb revenge plan, when she could have just cut a bitch.

I think it has more to do with also wanting the fresh start. She wants her own happy ending and figures she can't get it in the world they're in. Unfortunately, I don't think she's capable of really being happy.

I'm also wondering why, at the wedding, the Prince threw a sword at the queen. Seriously, it's a sword. They're more for swinging or thrusting, not throwing.

I didn't really think of Snow's students standing in for the dwarves. Her class is bigger than seven, so where would the other kids come from?

I don't think they're the actual dwarves. We already saw Grumpy as a rough blue-collar looking guy sitting in a jail cell in the pilot. I just think that nature abhors a vacuum

I'm curious how some characters actually survived their fairy tale stories. Maleficient's defeat in the 'Sleeping Beauty' story was referenced, so shouldn't she be dead? For that matter, doesn't the Evil Queen die at the end of Snow White?

I was wondering about that too. The thing is that in some stories, there are horrible punishments for villians, in others they just disappear. The evil witch/fairy/Maleficent didn't die in the original story of Briar Rose. She just disappears after casting the curse and isn't seen for the rest of the story. For a more obscure example, the witch from Jorinda and Joringel loses her powers from being touched by the red flower and then just kind of wanders off.

Holy shit!

It's hard to beat Grimm's Fairy Tales for creative punishments. Cinderella's stepmother and stepsisters had their eyes pecked out by her little bird friends. Another good one is being put in a barrel that's hammered full of nails and then rolled down a hill. Heck, Rumpelstiltskin punished himself by getting so angry that he rips himself in two.

[snarkbunny]

Holy shit!

Heck, the Goose Girl ends with the false princess being rolled to death in a spiked barrel (as referenced by Adam) I always liked the Red Riding Hood versions where the wolf wins with a tummy full of Granny and Red.