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  1. #76
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    He also reveals that Snow White's unborn daughter, Emma, will return when she is 28 years old to rescue them, thus beginning the final battle with the Queen.
    The final battle if we get to see it should either begin at the end of first season/beginning of the second season.

  2. #77
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    The pilot didn't make me think that at all. That may well be what happens, but the pilot didn't give any definitive indication of that.
    The early fairy tale world story made it seem very much like they would get a final battle against the Queen. They would win as the good guys does in fairy tale story. Snow Queen said something like in the actual story!

    Its sort like Terminator, Emma is John Connor she is destined to help them win the legendary war/battles/troubles with the evil Queen.
    Their dream is not for Emma to make them remember and they live happily ever after in some lame real world town. The Queen is fairy tale villain. She will try finish them.

    They painted up what the series will be about if it survives long enough for the Queen,Snow etc remember who they are.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    The early fairy tale world story made it seem very much like they would get a final battle against the Queen.
    Sure, but there was nothing to suggest that the entire show would be dedicated to depicting the final battle, which is what you seem to be talking about. Your complaints seem predicated on the expectation that they led us to believe they were going to jump right into the battle with the Queen in present day. I saw nothing to suggest that was ever going to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    Its sort like Terminator, Emma is John Connor she is destined to help them win the legendary war/battles/troubles with the evil Queen.
    And over the course of 4 feature films and two seasons of a TV show spread out over more than 25 years . . . we still haven't been show that final battle that Connor was supposed to win. So why would you think they'd jump into the final battle between Snow White and the Queen in the first episode of the show.
    Last edited by kalorama; 10-26-2011 at 03:09 PM.

  4. #79
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Sure, but there was nothing to suggest that the entire show would be dedicated to depicting the final battle, which is what you seem to be talking about. Your complaints seem predicated on the expectation that they led us to believe they were going to jump right into the battle with the Queen in present day. I saw nothing to suggest that was ever going to be the case.
    No no my complaints is like someone else said in earlier pages, if they prolong how long the characters will be forgetting who they are. If they dont know who they are in many eps its not fantastic story but too mundane story. Like other fantasy shows they can prolong the mystery too long.

    I want fairy tale intrigue and not jump right in the battle,wars in season one. I want to watch people know they are fairy tale living in modern world and trying to get back their legendary life.
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  5. #80
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snarkbunny View Post
    Which is why I prefer fairy tales like Six Swans or East of the Sun, West of the Moon where the protagonist fixes the problem.
    Thank you for the links. I tried to add them to my favorites but couldn't do it for some reason.

    Anyway, "Six Swans" is good. I know it better under the Grimm title of "Twelve Brothers" or the title "The Three Ravens" which was used on Jim Henson's The Storyteller. Haven't read "East of the Sun, West of the Moon" yet. I look forward to doing that in the future.

    I was mainly joking when I said what I said. Anyway, I do think it's interesting how some feminists sometimes come down on many well-known fairy tales for having weak female protagonists when those same protagonists are also often the only named characters in the story. For male characters, there's often just a string of nameless princes (which is where the joke that one guy named Prince Charming married Snow White, Briar Rose and Cinderella came from).

    Anyway, if you like stories where the girl protagonist saves the day, may I suggest a book titled Tatterhood and other Tales edited by Ethel Johnston Phelps.

    And how is that not waiting to be rescued? They are still stuck in a passive role. Would you want to be a princess stuck in a tower? I don't and heck, even in Tangled, they had to make Rapunzel more active to make her interesting.
    I think there's a big difference between choosing to be in a passive role and being in one because you don't know you're in one. I also think there's something of a metaphor in here. The idea that there are fantastical people under our noses but that they're hidden by a combination of authority figures keeping them restricted and the ignorance of the fantastic people themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax
    I didnt say Fables owned the characters but lets not be naive to think they didnt see Fables and think do similar as its the only contemporary hit story with fairy tale characters in modern setting. Specially the same channel who tried to make Fables tv show......
    I gave my theories for how this show came about earlier in the thread, and I continue to stand by them. Particularly my view that theory #3 was the most likely.

    I think maybe the reason I'm backing this show so much is because I'd really like to see someone do a similar concept to Fables and make me like it more. I used to read Fables, but after a while I realized I wasn't crazy about it. It was interesting in the beginning, but as more and more characters got created and cemented into place, I found that I wasn't really having that much fun reading it. Particularly since I realized that the only character that I really like all that much was Flycatcher.

    I didnt say the series will suck but first ep was weak writing since it was too slow before near the end. They have to use the fairy tale characters better, the war better. To survive cancellation. Emma walking around alone in town with people who dont remember who they are is not what the premise is like. It has to become much more fairy tale.

    If this first ep was good than anything is good.....
    You see, maybe it's just me and my tenuous relationship with the objective standard, but I did not see anything that stood out to me as bad writing.
    Last edited by AdamYJ; 10-26-2011 at 05:23 PM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    He was also in "The Full Monty."
    Don't forget Ravenous.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    Thank you for the links. I tried to add them to my favorites but couldn't do it for some reason.
    Go to the top level link of Sur La Lune, it's one of my favourite fairy tale sites on the Internet. You can also get lots of fairy tale collections on Project Gutenberg as well.

    I've read Tatterhood, et, but you misunderstand. I like protagonists that do stuff, and it doesn't matter if they are male or female, I want them to rescue themselves, not be rescued by someone who appears at the end of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    Anyway, I do think it's interesting how some feminists sometimes come down on many well-known fairy tales for having weak female protagonists when those same protagonists are also often the only named characters in the story.
    It's not whether they are named or not, it's what they do (or in the stories you mention don't do). Yes, everyone looks up to and wants to emulate someone who is stuck sleeping due to a curse. Flip the tale around, if the sleeper is a guy named Handsome Hans, he still wouldn't be interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    For male characters, there's often just a string of nameless princes (which is where the joke that one guy named Prince Charming married Snow White, Briar Rose and Cinderella came from).
    You mean beside the huge number of fairy tales that star male characters (who do stuff and win the day frequently by wit and intelligence)? Let's see there are the various Jack stories, the Simon stories, Tom Thumb, King Thrushbeard, The Twelve Dancing Princesses, Stone Soup, Bearskin, the Frog Prince, the guy with the tinderbox and the dogs, etc. that doesn't get into Sinbad, Aladdin or the other Arabian stories either.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    I think there's a big difference between choosing to be in a passive role and being in one because you don't know you're in one.
    I don't, but either way, they still are doing nothing interesting that would inspire me to care about them because they are boring.

    By the way, try Castle Waiting by Linda Medley if you haven't already. It may be more to your taste, if Fables isn't your cup of tea.
    Last edited by snarkbunny; 10-26-2011 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #83
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snarkbunny View Post
    Go to the top level link of Sur La Lune, it's one of my favourite fairy tale sites on the Internet. You can also get lots of fairy tale collections on Project Gutenberg as well.
    Thank you.

    I've read Tatterhood, et, but you misunderstand. I like protagonists that do stuff, and it doesn't matter if they are male or female, I want them to rescue themselves, not be rescued by someone who appears at the end of the story.

    It's not whether they are named or not, it's what they do (or in the stories you mention don't do). Yes, everyone looks up to and wants to emulate someone who is stuck sleeping due to a curse. Flip the tale around, if the sleeper is a guy named Handsome Hans, he still wouldn't be interesting.
    I know. I just thought it was an interesting point.

    By this same line of thought, there are some tales that really don't have any interesting, active characters, aren't there? Snow White, for one. No one in the story of Briar Rose really does anything interesting, either. I like Briar Rose for its high fantasy content with the 100-year sleep and the forest of briars and all that, but there's not much else to it.

    You mean beside the huge number of fairy tales that star male characters (who do stuff and win the day frequently by wit and intelligence)? Let's see there are the various Jack stories, the Simon stories, Tom Thumb, King Thrushbeard, The Twelve Dancing Princesses, Stone Soup, Bearskin, the Frog Prince, the guy with the tinderbox and the dogs, etc. that doesn't get into Sinbad, Aladdin or the other Arabian stories either.
    I was talking mainly from the position of viewing the most popular of the European folk tales. The reason being that, those are the stories that are likely going to be worked into this show. Shows like this tend to play on the familiarity of the audience. They're not likely to throw in a "King Thrushbeard", though I wish they would. And to the average Joe and Jane TVwatcher, "fairy tale" is often synonomous with "princess story" (thanks to the fine folks at the Disney corporation).

    I know a lot of the ones you mention. Jack and the Beanstalk is a favorite since I was, like, six. Though I hate some versions because they make it seem like Jack can't do anything for himself (one version had a fairy tell him that she was the one who made him want to climb the beanstalk ). The Grimm stories are good. Don't know who Simon is. The Arabian stories . . . I really don't have much experience with. I've read the Arabian Nights, but all it impressed on me is that the book had a strange structure. Were they folk tales or literary stories, or what? I need to get a book of Arab Folktales before I even know what to do with that culture.

    I don't, but either way, they still are doing nothing interesting that would inspire me to care about them because they are boring.
    I think it's too early to judge this show quite yet. Let's give it an episode or two.

    By the way, try Castle Waiting by Linda Medley if you haven't already. It may be more to your taste, if Fables isn't your cup of tea.
    I've heard of that. I'll have to check and see if any local libraries have it. I'm trying to save some money.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    By this same line of thought, there are some tales that really don't have any interesting, active characters, aren't there? Snow White, for one. No one in the story of Briar Rose really does anything interesting, either. I like Briar Rose for its high fantasy content with the 100-year sleep and the forest of briars and all that, but there's not much else to it.
    Quite a few are like that, but their point was to teach, not entertain. I find Sleeping Beauty to be rather creepy, especially when you go back to the original tales where she was raped while sleeping and it's the child suckling that wakes her.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    Though I hate some versions because they make it seem like Jack can't do anything for himself (one version had a fairy tell him that she was the one who made him want to climb the beanstalk ). .
    Which is oddly the same complaint some feminists make about Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    Don't know who Simon is. The Arabian stories . . . I really don't have much experience with. I've read the Arabian Nights, but all it impressed on me is that the book had a strange structure. Were they folk tales or literary stories, or what? I need to get a book of Arab Folktales before I even know what to do with that culture.
    Simon is a common name is a lot of stories, along with Ivan in Russian tales, or Hans or Peter. For example, I learned this one with the hero's name being Simon, not Dummling.

    Try the Andrew Lang Fairy Books He has put a lot of the Arabian tales in more classic European style. Most Arabian nights books try to capture the feel of oral storytelling. They are folk tales. 1001 nights is 1001 nights of stories with the first 1000 nights ending on a cliffhanger.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    No no my complaints is like someone else said in earlier pages, if they prolong how long the characters will be forgetting who they are. If they dont know who they are in many eps its not fantastic story but too mundane story. Like other fantasy shows they can prolong the mystery too long.

    I want fairy tale intrigue and not jump right in the battle,wars in season one. I want to watch people know they are fairy tale living in modern world and trying to get back their legendary life.
    So, basically, you want Fables. Well, this isn't that, and I haven't seen anything to suggest it will be.

  11. #86
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    We're going to see fairie tale intrigue through the season by way of flashbacks. I know we get to see Snow and Prince Charming meet for the first time.

  12. #87
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snarkbunny View Post
    Quite a few are like that, but their point was to teach, not entertain. I find Sleeping Beauty to be rather creepy, especially when you go back to the original tales where she was raped while sleeping and it's the child suckling that wakes her.
    Yeah, they also come from a time period and culture when it was easier and made more sense to believe in the hand of fate and a divine plan than to really count on the protagonist to take charge and get themself out of a scrape.

    And yes, Sleeping Beauty is creepy in its earlier incarnations. However, folk tales are reasonably changeable, which is what makes them so great.

    Which is oddly the same complaint some feminists make about Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella.
    Yes, but the difference is that Jack and the Beanstalk is my favorite folk tale. I have very little problem with being a hypocrite.

    Simon is a common name is a lot of stories, along with Ivan in Russian tales, or Hans or Peter. For example, I learned this one with the hero's name being Simon, not Dummling.
    The name Simon sounds English to me, but I would have thought "Jack" would have been the go-to English name for a fairy tale hero.

    Try the Andrew Lang Fairy Books He has put a lot of the Arabian tales in more classic European style. Most Arabian nights books try to capture the feel of oral storytelling. They are folk tales. 1001 nights is 1001 nights of stories with the first 1000 nights ending on a cliffhanger.
    Thanks. I'll look into those. However, what I really want to get is this one. That's because I already own most of the Pantheon library.

    I have nothing against literary fairy tales. I've read a good number of them. However, my approach to folk tales and literary tales is different. Especially because I generally don't use literary tales for storytelling in the group I'm in. I could, but there's considerably less elbow room for interpretation. Ever since I heard about this show and Grimm, I've actually been on a bit of a tour through the less famous stories in Grimm's Fairy Tales. The reason being that I knew I was going to be seeing a number of famous name characters already through these shows.

    Oh, and thanks for the Castle Waiting reccomendation. It looks like it's available at a library nearby. Truth be told, the comic I'm really waiting for with bated breath is this one. It's Henson. It's folk tales. It's comics. It's hard to lose with that one.

    This has actually been a lot of fun. I don't even get to talk to my storytelling associates about this stuff at this kind of length.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    Yes, but the difference is that Jack and the Beanstalk is my favorite folk tale. I have very little problem with being a hypocrite.
    As long as you realize that I'm going to point it out and laugh at you, that works. You are of course welcome to do so at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    This has actually been a lot of fun. I don't even get to talk to my storytelling associates about this stuff at this kind of length.
    It has been fun. See you for Round 2 after Episode 2?

  14. #89
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    So, basically, you want Fables. Well, this isn't that, and I haven't seen anything to suggest it will be.
    Hehe tell that to the people who has done the series and who has shown in the previews they will do exactly that in two eps or so. They will show flashbacks of fairy tale intrigue. Fables doesnt own the idea of intrigue, of good guys vs bad guys.....

    I geussed what will happen from the pilot. I dont want Fables because im not a fan of that comic anymore. I want potentially more interesting series over few seasons. Fables had more impressive art,covers than stories to me.

    Get past the Fables similarity because i have.
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    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post

    I think maybe the reason I'm backing this show so much is because I'd really like to see someone do a similar concept to Fables and make me like it more. I used to read Fables, but after a while I realized I wasn't crazy about it. It was interesting in the beginning, but as more and more characters got created and cemented into place, I found that I wasn't really having that much fun reading it. Particularly since I realized that the only character that I really like all that much was Flycatcher.


    This i agree completly with you, i want a similar concept that makes me like it too. I stopped reading Fables long ago. The writing was not good enough for my fairy tale interest.

    Thats why i was worried about how slow the pilot was. Because i want this to be good series long enough for it to become interesting storywise.
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