Event: Marvel vs Jack Kirby: Legal Rights and Ethical Might

[Mark Evanier]

The decision to return the art was made while Kirby was in the process of suing Marvel.

ME: Jack Kirby never sued Marvel.

[Francis Dawson]

^ And here speaks someone who really knows their Kirby onions. Thanks for joining the discussion Mark.

[Mark Evanier]

And here speaks someone who really knows their Kirby onions. Thanks for joining the discussion Mark.

ME: I am actually not joining the discussion because there is much that I'm not able to discuss. Just correcting a few of the more obvious fictions I chanced to notice. I have not even read the entire thread.

[Francis Dawson]

Understood. Thanks for the interventions anyway.

[dr chimp]

ME: I am actually not joining the discussion because there is much that I'm not able to discuss. Just correcting a few of the more obvious fictions I chanced to notice. I have not even read the entire thread.

hi mark, does the court case mean the end of the issue or can we expect further developments? (obviously without any specifics)

[GavinR]

I just wish he would get more credit for his creations. I can't stand the fact that so many younger comic readers think that Stan Lee really did create all those Marvel characters on his own. The thing he DID create was "The Marvel Method" which was a way to make other people do the bulk of the initial work.

[Darrell D.]

Iron Man. Kirby drew the cover which had the initial costume but most of the work wa done by Don Heck who hasnt been acknowleged as a co creator, as well Ditko created the more recognizable second armour. As well Kirby may have created the hulk, but contrary to his claims, it wasnt he who made the concept of the hulk transforming due to anger/fear/anxiety it was Ditko.

Yeah, Iron Man is a tricky one, as he allegedly designed the original armor, but Ditko designed the first red and gold streamlined version.
And regardless, Kirby still designed the Hulk. He created the design, the concept, and the look, not Ditko.

[Darrell D.]

I just wish he would get more credit for his creations. I can't stand the fact that so many younger comic readers think that Stan Lee really did create all those Marvel characters on his own. The thing he DID create was "The Marvel Method" which was a way to make other people do the bulk of the initial work.

It seems to me 'the Marvel Method' was born out of necessity. There was no way that Stan could do full scripts for all the books, and Kirby was always an idea man, as well as a storyteller extraordinaire. The downside, for the story tellers, is they got the short end of the stick in terms of credit.
And, yeah, it would be nice to see creator credits on the books. Ditko's and Kirby's creations are always credited when they appear in DC books.

[Mark Evanier]

hi mark, does the court case mean the end of the issue or can we expect further developments? (obviously without any specifics)

ME: The decision was the decision of one judge. Other, higher courts can overrule and the Kirbys' lawyer is petitioning them to do so. How likely this is to happen is outside my area of expertise. I suspect it's also beyond the expertise of most folks, including some who've passed the bar, who insist they know exactly how it will go. They all seem to express different, contradictory opinions.

I don't know what to expect. I will just tell you that an awful lot of people on the Internet who are predicting why the Kirbys will win or why the Kirbys will lose are expressing theories that have nothing to do with anything that either side is asserting in the actual case.

[Darrell D.]

Hey, Mark, when can we expect the big Kirby Bio you are working on?
The King of Comics book was just wonderful, and thank you so much for it.

[Gryphon]

Yeah, Iron Man is a tricky one, as he allegedly designed the original armor, but Ditko designed the first red and gold streamlined version.
And regardless, Kirby still designed the Hulk. He created the design, the concept, and the look, not Ditko.

Well thats the thing, the hulk as Kirby created him was a SLIGHTLY different concept, since he transformed at night. The hulk as everyone knows him transforms due to anger/fear/anxiety and that was ditko.

[dr chimp]

ME: The decision was the decision of one judge. Other, higher courts can overrule and the Kirbys' lawyer is petitioning them to do so. How likely this is to happen is outside my area of expertise. I suspect it's also beyond the expertise of most folks, including some who've passed the bar, who insist they know exactly how it will go. They all seem to express different, contradictory opinions.

I don't know what to expect. I will just tell you that an awful lot of people on the Internet who are predicting why the Kirbys will win or why the Kirbys will lose are expressing theories that have nothing to do with anything that either side is asserting in the actual case.

thanks for the update. its all very complicated to follow.

(however i have been inspired to get a copy of the king of comics next payday)

[StoneGold]

ME: The decision was the decision of one judge. Other, higher courts can overrule and the Kirbys' lawyer is petitioning them to do so. How likely this is to happen is outside my area of expertise. I suspect it's also beyond the expertise of most folks, including some who've passed the bar, who insist they know exactly how it will go. They all seem to express different, contradictory opinions.

I don't know what to expect. I will just tell you that an awful lot of people on the Internet who are predicting why the Kirbys will win or why the Kirbys will lose are expressing theories that have nothing to do with anything that either side is asserting in the actual case.

I think I can accurately predict this much -- the only ones who get rich are the lawyers.

[The_Ronin]

Forthcoming event at the Center for Cartooning Studies, White River Junction, Vermont. Cartoonist Steve Bisette, who has called for a boycott of all Marvel product due to their treatment of Kirby (http://srbissette.com/?p=12761) will be joined by Oliver Goodenough from the Vermont Law School.

http://thepanelists.org/2011/10/kirby-in-vermont/

I completely agree with Bisette's stance and sincerely hope that Marvel reaches an agreement with Kirby's heirs that is at least equivalent to Stan Lee's 2005 settlement. The moral case for this is totally compelling. You should think so too, if you don't then shame on you. The thread on this board when the judge ruled in favour of Marvel was one of the most wretched things I've ever read.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...d.php?t=378489

Boycott Marvel. Make Mine Kirby.

I thought Kirby was dead.

[Iron Maiden]

The example of work-for-hire software programmers often arises in these discussions. I'm not at all knowledgeable in this area and I may be chastised for this but it seems to me that there are x number of highly skilled programmers who could collaborate on 'Windows' or 'Photoshop' but there is a very specific and unreplicable 'alchemy' in creatively midwifing a resonant fictional chracter. If said character subsequently goes on to generate millions or billions of pounds then it seems to me wholly reasonable that the creator should be substantially remunerated. So I don't think the comparison is apt.

It is in the respect that the work you produce while under their employment belongs to the company. Simple as that. My brother wrote a series of program for one of the largest steel producing companies and they were written specifically for the company. The company owned the programs but it's not like they were in the business of marketing software. But you have to sign papers saying that the ideas could not be used elsewhere in case he and said company parted ways. You might get bonus money or your union might allow for profit sharing. But it has to be in writing. The comic book company at that time would have hired and paid for the inkers, lettering, printing and distribution of the product. Artists were paid a page rate and that was that. If you want to share in the profits, that would have to be something specifically written in a contract and as you say no one had a contract. You simply were paid by the number of pages you produced.

Think about the film industry and how the unions had to negotiated specific contracts that allowed for an actor get paid residuals for a TV series. Or negotiate a film deal that has points clause. Could Jack Kirby have done this? I suppose he could have tried but more than likely he would not have been hired under those circumstances in that era. Jack Kirby would prowl the streets of NYC during the lean times of the 1950's trying to scrape up any work he could find. Was that fair? No but life isn't fair to a lot of people in the days before the profit potential for a simple, almost throwaway product like a comic book would turn into millions if not billions of dollars when you add in product licensing, films, etc.