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  1. #106
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Pshyconeurosis

    Pathological trends in an individual's personality which leads to immature and distorted attitudes of the self and their surroundings. As a result, when faced with stress, they experience severe anxiety and resort to the use of neurotic defense mechanisms.


    Dissociative Reaction










    Classified as a type of hysteria (exhibits some type of physical illness with no physical cause (ie. hysterical blindness)). Includes amnesia, fugue, multiple personality, and somnambulism (sleepwalking).

    The person blocks off a part of their life from conscious recognition. They can retreat even further by going away in a fugue state, where they abandon their current life and establishes a new one somewhere else, completely forgetting the previous life for days or even years). Typically the person has an egocentric, immature personality who is forced within an unpleasant situation from which they see no escape.

    In the case of Multiple Personality, the person manifests two or more distinct personas. The person may change from one personality to another at periods varying from a few minutes to several years, and cannot remember in one what happened in the other. Sometimes, however, there can be a Co-Conscious personality where one personality can be dominant and function consciously, while the other functions subconsciously. The subconscious personality knows about the conscious one, but not the other way around, and it makes itself known in roundabout ways.

    Multiple personality is generally the result of a deep seated conflict between contradictory impulses where a resolution is achieved through a separation of the conflicting sides.

    In the Killing Joke and other stories, the Joker does not seem to remember his past, giving a differing account each time he tells it.

    In "Going Sane" The Joker seems to be having a fugue state (forgetting his life as the Joker and becoming Joseph Kerr). He is also demonstrating co-conscious personality where J.Kerr becomes the dominant personality and the Joker persona is the subconscious personality. One can wonder whether the J.Kerr persona was ever real, just another fabricated personality by the Joker, or if this persona is normally hiding in the Joker's subconscious.




    So to summarize the Joker has:

    Antisocial/Narcissistic (Personality Disorder)
    Dissociative (Neurotic Disorder)
    Schizoaffective (Psychotic Disorder)

    In other words: Hat Trick!


    But what does it all mean?

    The predisposing factors of mania are primarily genetic. The average age when mania starts to develop is about 44 (the majority of cases occur in a range of 25-65) Schizophrenia can also be genetic, but genetic schizophrenia tends to shows up in late adolescence/early adulthood, while schizophrenia caused by trauma occurs later in life. Later onsets of mania and schizophrenia could explain why Joker seems to have gotten crazier with time.

    There is a seeming incongruity with his dissociative disorder in that the main dynamics of multiple personality is an exaggeration of conflict between the conforming and non-conforming personalities (as seen in Two-face and Ventriloquist). But all of Joker's personalities are non-conforming. So what the flip? I can think of two possibilities:

    a). As in "Going Sane", the Joker has a co-conscious personality and his conforming personality is always in the subconscious, so we never see it. One could ponder whether his obsession with Batman could be the subconscious personality's way of trying to put the dominant personality in the path of someone who can stop him.

    b). The Joker was a sociopath prior to becoming "The Joker". Because Sociopaths don't have moral conflicts, all of his personalities reflect this.
    What triggered the splits in personality in the first place then? If, having Narcissistic PD, he already subconsciously thinks he is fundamentally flawed, then ending up disfigured to the point where he'd be a social outcast could have caused the complete meltdown of his persona. His evolving personalities might be an attempt to create someone he thinks is acceptable (working within the framework of his craziness), but that never happens, so he is constantly changing.

    What do you think?

  2. #107
    Super Amalgamated! Alan2099's Avatar
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    In "Going Sane" The Joker seems to be having a fugue state (forgetting his life as the Joker and becoming Joseph Kerr). He is also demonstrating co-conscious personality where J.Kerr becomes the dominant personality and the Joker persona is the subconscious personality. One can wonder whether the J.Kerr persona was ever real, just another fabricated personality by the Joker, or if this persona is normally hiding in the Joker's subconscious.
    In an issue of JLA, the Spectre traveled deep into the Joker's mind or soul (I forget which. Maybe both.) and hidden deep in it was a version of him that if it wasn't Joe Kerr, was a character very much like him. I think it's safe to say that even if he's just a manufactured personality, he's still apart of who Joker is.
    Highly Evolved Creature Totally Orientated on Revenge.

  3. #108
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    In an issue of JLA, the Spectre traveled deep into the Joker's mind or soul (I forget which. Maybe both.) and hidden deep in it was a version of him that if it wasn't Joe Kerr, was a character very much like him. I think it's safe to say that even if he's just a manufactured personality, he's still apart of who Joker is.
    Yeah this one:








    We also find out what the Joker likes to eat.


  4. #109
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    I figured while I was at it, I would list what I think the other batvillians' mental illnesses are.


    The Sociopaths


    Scarecrow
    Clayface (Basil Karlo)
    Black Mask
    Hugo Strange (*Pre-crisis)
    Simon Hurt
    Dr. Death
    Hush


    The Neurotics

    Two-face - Dissociative disorder - appears to be the co-conscious type as there is no huge personality difference between Two-face and Harvey Dent when the coin lands one way or the other. The only difference is what choice is made. It seems Two-face and Harvey Dent have alternated between who is the dominant personality in the past. The coin may act as a way for the subconscious personality to exert influence on the conscious one.

    Ventriloquist - Dissociative disorder - Multiple Personality. Unlike Two-face, Wesker demonstrates two distinct personalities occurring at once.


    The Riddler - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - Edward's seems to be rooted in unrealistic aspirations - where a person feels the need to compete with others, setting unrealistic goals for themselves. When they fail they develop an inferiority complex which leads to overcompensation and a compulsive need to triumph over others. In Eddy's case by trying to outsmart Batman and the authorities by leaving riddles.

    Hugo Strange (*Post-crisis) -Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - Hugo develops an obsession to become Batman. This is similar to Riddler's cause, except Hugo's way of trying to deal with his inferiority complex is to become someone he thinks is the ideal.

    Harley Quinn - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - the obsessive need to maintain a relationship. Harley seems to demonstrate dissonant cognition - when holding conflicting ideas simultaneously causes emotional turmoil. In Harley's case, wanting desperately to maintain a relationship while also knowing the relationship is unhealthy and doomed. In order to cope, she changes her beliefs and actions to ignore, justify, and deny the negative aspects. As a result of ignoring the bad, the self-image becomes less congruent with reality. In some instances when this happens the person can become a belligerent, aggressive person continually looking for self-enhancement (Harley trying to prove she is a competent criminal on her own and worthy of the Joker) in order to demonstrate that what they suspect about themselves is not true. Another aspect Harley demonstrates which was mentioned toward the end of Gotham City Sirens is that she believes continuing the relationship is her only option since she has lost everything else, her career and life prospects are ruined, so if the relationship ends she will have nothing. *This diagnosis could change since she's getting a new origin soon and seems crazier than before.

    Mr. Freeze - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - Obsessive need to revive his wife at any cost. Similar reasoning as Harley Quinn.

    Fire Fly - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - Pyromania - a repetitive behavior (setting fires) used to reduce anxiety and stress.


    The Psychotics

    All of those listed can probably be described as Paranoid Schizophrenics. The Paranoid type are generally more functional than other types of schizophrenics. *Clinically speaking, Joker cannot be diagnosed as schizophrenic because he has affective disorder. He can only be diagnosed as schizoaffective if he is showing symptoms of schizophrenia.

    Mad hatter - delusions of being the actual Mad hatter from Alice in Wonderland. In Gotham Central he is described as obsessive compulsive and highly delusional. OCD is frequently found among schizophrenics. The mind controlling stuff could be his way of preventing people from harming him if he has feelings of persecution as well.

    Maxie Zeus - Has delusions of being the God Zeus.

    Victor Zsasz nihilistic delusions, delusions of grandeur: being the liberator of people from their meaningless existences. OCD need to scar himself to represent his victims.

    Cornelius Stirk -delusions that he needs to eat human hearts to survive.

    Humpty Dumpty - delusions that people need to be fixed by putting them back together.


    All of the above

    Joker (he likes it multiple choice)



    Taking to much of his own crazy drugs


    Professor Pyg


    People they put in Arkham that have no mental disorders


    Killer Croc - I guess his behavior is normal for someone who is literally devolving into a lizard.

    Poison Ivy - she's not hallucinating she's talking to plants, she is talking to plants!


    In the real world, I think only those in the psychotic list would actually be institutionalized in an insane asylum. Everyone else would go to regular prison and probably get life or the death penalty.

  5. #110
    Senior Member Patroklos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubberLotus View Post
    A hundred Jason Todd crowbarrings couldn't have made up for the rest of that disgusting story.

    And thedevilsadvocate, I was mainly thinking about the "Why? Just... because" line.

    We rarely see the Joker hesitate in his dialogue - normally, he plows on and on and on like he's got note cards sewn into his eyelids or something. I dunno, that particular moment (combined with the almost embarrassed look on his face) struck me as him letting his guard down for just one second around Batman.

    Sure, you could say that that hesitation was just for effect, and that he had the punchline all thought out before Batman even stepped into Arkham, but I prefer to read it as him pulling the punchline out right there, on the spot, to save face.

    Oh, and almost forgot:

    Where's this from? It looks decidedly Tim Sale-like, but I don't recognize it from any of his work on Batman.
    "Doesn't everyone on here hate comics? Isn't this a forum where a bunch of middle aged men sit around and bitch about how they hate comics and haven't read them in twenty years?" -Mezzaro-

  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedliwNala View Post
    Where's this from? It looks decidedly Tim Sale-like, but I don't recognize it from any of his work on Batman.
    It's early Sale, from Batman: Haunted Knight, wonderful collection of Halloween specials. That scan is from "Ghosts" story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.wonderful View Post


    Joker would do this.
    Where is this thing of beauty from?! Countdown, I presume?

  7. #112
    Senior Member Patroklos's Avatar
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    I've read that collection and thought it might be taken from there, I just didn't recognize that particular panel. Thanks!

    To even things out, I'm pretty sure that panel is from an issue of Red Robin, Tim Drake's latest solo book.
    "Doesn't everyone on here hate comics? Isn't this a forum where a bunch of middle aged men sit around and bitch about how they hate comics and haven't read them in twenty years?" -Mezzaro-

  8. #113

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    I thought that also, but that costume doesn't look like the classic Red Robin costume, although there's a possibility that maybe it was changed down the line as the run progressed. Idk I didn't read it. And thank you also!

  9. #114
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    I thought that also, but that costume doesn't look like the classic Red Robin costume, although there's a possibility that maybe it was changed down the line as the run progressed. Idk I didn't read it. And thank you also!
    They're in the "unternet", it's their avatars.

  10. #115
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    Default The idea that there will always be a Joker is dumb!

    If you go back in time and alter history, someone else will become the Joker. I find that idea dumb because it makes the original Mr. J less unique if any guy or woman can become him. Same deal with Batman.

    Okay, let's say I create a costume and name, what of the odds someone else in another timeline will use the same name and costume?

  11. #116

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    That applies to any character with multiple incarnations across the Multiverse.

  12. #117
    The Dark Knight Returns DonC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMagneto View Post
    If you go back in time and alter history, someone else will become the Joker. I find that idea dumb because it makes the original Mr. J less unique if any guy or woman can become him. Same deal with Batman.

    Okay, let's say I create a costume and name, what of the odds someone else in another timeline will use the same name and costume?
    Are you referring to a specific storyline or did this idea just pop into your head? If it's the latter then they have pills you can take for that.
    Free your soul and let it fly....

  13. #118
    Veteran Member Lancerman's Avatar
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    Martha Wayne became the Joker

  14. #119
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Poor Joker in Return of Bruce Wayne!

    He was just a guy who liked a good laugh.

    Bruce grrrred at him. And, I think he died. (Considering how long ago that was, I'm sure he eventually died, but I think Savage's men kill him that issue.)

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperMagneto View Post
    If you go back in time and alter history, someone else will become the Joker. I find that idea dumb because it makes the original Mr. J less unique if any guy or woman can become him. Same deal with Batman.

    Okay, let's say I create a costume and name, what of the odds someone else in another timeline will use the same name and costume?
    Well, it was apparently your idea, so you're calling your own idea dumb.

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