Re-read Avengers Forever

[the Hornet]

And I must say this is still one of the best Avengers story I have ever read. Busiek and Pacheco really brought their A-Game with help from Stern. At a time when Busiek's health was not so good too. Something I realized now regarding this -

1. The Giant Man/Goliath of this mini, I guess now thanks to the Secret Invasion reveal, would actually be a skrull. It was never the real guy. But what about Yellowjacket, anyone knows if that was a version before the skrull took over ?

2. Since Genis is dead now, I guess the version in this mini is from an alternate future timeline not the prime one?

3. The Vision and Human Torch being split into 2 via Immortus's manipulation of the time stream. He kept the results of the split in the same timestream. I guess that means one of the "Torch-es" belongs to an alternate timeline? Wonder who that might be?

4. Do the other Avengers of the then present timeline learn fully about the Destiny War or did they hide things from Wanda seeing as how she forgot about her kids during Disassembled?

5. Are Billy and Tommy from Young Avengers destined to be as powerful as the timekeepers suspected or since they were not really "naturally" created, will they escape that possibility ?

I miss the classic way of Avengers storytelling. I feel that it all ended with Busiek's last issue. I am a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers but wish his adjectiveless Avengers would be more like the classic one. I guess the closest we have is Allan Heinberg's Children's Crusade huh ?

[Werehunter]

A few notes on your comments.

1: Actually they showed that Pym was replaced sometime between Disassembled and the launch of New Avengers. So the Pym in this story is the real Pym.

4: Some did. I know Busiek had Pym mention it during his run since Pym and Wasp were supposed be the current versions of the characters.

[Thundermonkey]

And I must say this is still one of the best Avengers story I have ever read. Busiek and Pacheco really brought their A-Game with help from Stern. At a time when Busiek's health was not so good too. Something I realized now regarding this -

1. The Giant Man/Goliath of this mini, I guess now thanks to the Secret Invasion reveal, would actually be a skrull. It was never the real guy. But what about Yellowjacket, anyone knows if that was a version before the skrull took over ?

2. Since Genis is dead now, I guess the version in this mini is from an alternate future timeline not the prime one?

3. The Vision and Human Torch being split into 2 via Immortus's manipulation of the time stream. He kept the results of the split in the same timestream. I guess that means one of the "Torch-es" belongs to an alternate timeline? Wonder who that might be?

4. Do the other Avengers of the then present timeline learn fully about the Destiny War or did they hide things from Wanda seeing as how she forgot about her kids during Disassembled?

5. Are Billy and Tommy from Young Avengers destined to be as powerful as the timekeepers suspected or since they were not really "naturally" created, will they escape that possibility ?

I miss the classic way of Avengers storytelling. I feel that it all ended with Busiek's last issue. I am a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers but wish his adjectiveless Avengers would be more like the classic one. I guess the closest we have is Allan Heinberg's Children's Crusade huh ?

They are the same being. Its kind of like that Star Trek episode where Riker finds out about his "twin".

[the Hornet]

Thanks werehunter. I did not know when he got taken, I thought it happened years ago.

Yeah the Vision thing is confusing Thundermonkey, almost wish they left it alone but I guess it is not much of a biggie.

[XPac]

Thanks werehunter. I did not know when he got taken, I thought it happened years ago.

Yeah the Vision thing is confusing Thundermonkey, almost wish they left it alone but I guess it is not much of a biggie.

I gotta agree with the Vision thing. To me they should have left that one alone.

To a degree, part of me thought that mini sort of retconned things that didn't necessarily need to be retconned.

[tigerkaya]

I say it was necessary for the Vision and Human Torch being split since Bryne tried to do his retconn of Vision's origin. Plus it works, Thinker could use the Human Torch against the Fantastic Four and Ultron could use the Torch to create Vision.

[XPac]

I say it was necessary for the Vision and Human Torch being split since Bryne tried to do his retconn of Vision's origin. Plus it works, Thinker could use the Human Torch against the Fantastic Four and Ultron could use the Torch to create Vision.

Byrne's retcon was necessary because he wanted to bring the Torch back.

But I'm not sure I necessarily seen the point in retconning the Vision back into being the Torch since I honestly don't think Vision ever needed to be the Torch. Aside from retconning Byrne's retcon purely becausa it wasn't that well done, I don't think it really mattered to the Vision one way or the other.

Vision to me was nothing like the Torch. He didn't look like him, he didn't act like him, and he was never really treated like was the Torch anyways (by Namor or Cap). So to me it doesn't matter that Vision isn't the Torch.

[Kurt Busiek]

But I'm not sure I necessarily seen the point in retconning the Vision back into being the Torch since I honestly don't think Vision ever needed to be the Torch. Aside from retconning Byrne's retcon purely becausa it wasn't that well done, I don't think it really mattered to the Vision one way or the other.

The Vision had the Torch's memories buried within, to the extent that he had claustrophobia. He wouldn't have had those, unless he was created from the Torch.

That's what spurred me to play it that way, at least -- trying to keep both the Englehart and the Byrne "true" at the same time. Coulda been too messy, maybe, but I thought it beat having Professor Horton lecture Hank Pym about the meaning of a word Hank Pym made up.

In any case, glad people still remember the story fondly.

kdb

[tigerkaya]

At the end of Avengers Forever The Supreme Intelligence was seen with The Forever Crystal. Would be interesting to see DNA or Hickman to introduce into the a new plot. It could be used by The SI as an excuse for his return say that he created a duplicate with the crystal to stand in for him to be killed while the original was placed somewhere safe waiting things out.

[Valeria Kementari]

At the end of Avengers Forever The Supreme Intelligence was seen with The Forever Crystal. Would be interesting to see DNA or Hickman to introduce into the a new plot. It could be used by The SI as an excuse for his return say that he created a duplicate with the crystal to stand in for him to be killed while the original was placed somewhere safe waiting things out.

he used it to evolve the kree into ruul dyrin Maximum Security

[tigerkaya]

he used it to evolve the kree into ruul dyrin Maximum Security

Interesting, thanks for that, need to check that vol. of Avengers.

[Valeria Kementari]

Interesting, thanks for that, need to check that vol. of Avengers.

Maximum Security was a great idea, but I didn't much like the execution. It was a Marvel-wide event, not just Avengers

[tigerkaya]

Maximum Security was a great idea, but I didn't much like the execution. It was a Marvel-wide event, not just Avengers

I was actually referring to Avengers vol.4 by Busiek. Since the main Maximum Security is included in the volume.

[tigerkaya]

Since were on the topic thought this would be funny to post

[Valeria Kementari]

I was actually referring to Avengers vol.4 by Busiek. Since the main Maximum Security is included in the volume.

well I don't buy tpbs cause I was there when the issues came out