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  1. #61
    Senior Member MDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roquefort Raider View Post
    You're right, and I'd say that the shift in orientation is to blame. Supes arrives from right to left in panel 2, but is shown face to the right in panel 3. Sure, we can reason that the camera just shifted 180 degrees, but that's not something the reader should have to reason out; it should be made clear.
    the 180-degree rule is one of the first things covered in film school--basically, don't move the POV so drastically that what was on the right is now on the left and vice-versa. (It's okay to break the rule for effect, but it's not really called for here.)
    "It's just lines on paper, folks!"

  2. #62
    NOT Bucky O'Hare! The Confessor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    I like repetition when it's handled by someone who understands rhythm.

    Going off on a bit of a tangent, (and I realise this isn't at all the same thing that you're talking about, Eumenides) but the above sentence made me think of The Perishers newspaper strip. An often-used stylistic trait of that strip was that the background scene across all four panals would stay constant, while taking into account changing petrspective, while the characters within the scene moved from panal to panal. I've explained that really horribly, but hopefully the example below will better demonstrate what I mean...





    I love Dennis Collins' artwork on the Perishers strip. Now, that guy understood sequential art!
    Last edited by The Confessor; 09-08-2011 at 07:01 AM.
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  3. #63
    *choke* Dan B. in the Underworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
    Dan, I know that you disclaimed with the 'bad mood', but you can criticize the creators and the book, but please refrain from insulting the people who purchased the books. Operate under the assumption that they are on these boards (which they are) and treat them as you'd want to be treated.
    You are, of course, correct. Buying the comic doesn't make anyone an imbecile; I should have described those who did so as fans & readers who were lured by false promises of quality or even competence. Shame on DC.

    (And shame on me for posting while being just about doubled over from stomach pain. In such instances, I shouldn't operate a keyboard or anything else, & for that matter if I'd had my car I wouldn't have been at work & hence looking at a computer screen, much less unloading my angst-poisoned vituperation on people who didn't deserve it.)

    For once, I have to say that I'd have no objection (not that anyone cares, or should, about my views on the matter) if every single copy of that comic were forwarded forthwith to CGC for slabbing. Doing so, after all, would prevent that hideous first page from ever seeing the light of day again.
    I tend to split superhero comics fans into "People who like Krypto" and "People who don't like Krypto."
    Basically, if you miss the wonder of a dog flying around in a little Superman cape, you're in the wrong hobby.

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  4. #64
    what happens next? tolworthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Confessor View Post
    I love Dennis Collins' artwork on the Perishers strip. Now, that guy understood sequential art!
    Agreed!! When I was a teenager I used the Perishers' books to construct a map of their town, and sent it to Maurice Dodd. He phoned me up to thank me, and sent me a Perishers' original (signed by himself and Collins)!

    It's strips like this, with perfect art, perfect storytelling, and amazing use of every inch, that turned me into the ungrateful moaner that I am today. I want ALL comics to be that good.

    EDIT: found the map: the above strip takes place under the railway arch in the center of the picture. Wellington is walking north (you can just see the abandoned car in the map). As you can see, the map is not perfect - I drew the fence a little too long, and there are a couple of other inaccuracies as well. But all those locations became like old friends to me. Why can't all comic art be that real?
    Last edited by tolworthy; 09-08-2011 at 08:34 AM. Reason: found the map

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Confessor View Post
    I love Dennis Collins' artwork on the Perishers strip. Now, that guy understood sequential art!
    Incidentally, that strip could be a good example on why sometimes 'sequential art' isn't a good definition of comics. It is true that we read it from left to right, but at the same time we see the picture of the background as a whole. I mean, the eyes follow the narrative sequence, but our first glance at the strip tends to appreciate it as a unity, a big single panel that only on a second reading we begin to deconstruct into four internal units. So much for McCloud and his theory of closure!

    (And I agree that the page from Action Comics is horrible, but fortunately this kind of storytelling is just something you find in mainstream superhero comics. Outside the genre, storytelling is as healthy as always. Just saying...)
    Last edited by Fesch_; 09-08-2011 at 10:59 AM.

  6. #66
    Modus omnibus in rebus Roquefort Raider's Avatar
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    Here's an example of repetition used to great effect, because the scripter knows how to pace the dialogue.
    People in white coats (science cartoons, updated daily) | Art Blog

  7. #67
    world of yesterday benday-dot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    Picasso wasn't doing sequential storytelling.
    Well, he painted a picture and he told a story. Cubism (which was much more than just Picasso) was a new way of seeing or rather a new way of capturing the way the eye always sees. In a glance we get a life's story. We don't by nature view the world sequentially or in a strict left to right linear fashion. The page as a whole can be the thing, one riot of an instant in which all directions are equal. Unlike a film in which one image does indeed fall after an another (even as great directors also attempt to defy this convention) a comic page cannot hide past from future or future from past.

    Fesch, in his ever eloquent fashion got to the point better than I in his post above. I'm not saying this this is what Morales was after in that dubious page, but I do feel it's important that we ought not automatically condemn a comic book page because it does not follow the traditional rules.

    Your post was well reasoned and I'd say there was nothing automatic about it, still I always feels its good to remember that comics at their best have many ways to tell a story.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    Picasso wasn't doing sequential storytelling.
    I think you could argue that. Certainly, he and Paul Klee were hugely influential to most of the original Sunday Supplement cartoonists at the very least. But more importantly, I think there is an element of sequential narrative to lots of fine art. More so in things like enlightenment tableau or illuminated manuscripts but even something like Guernica has a certain readability to it.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDG View Post
    the 180-degree rule is one of the first things covered in film school--basically, don't move the POV so drastically that what was on the right is now on the left and vice-versa. (It's okay to break the rule for effect, but it's not really called for here.)
    It really depresses me that while so many comics ditch all the fundamentals of cartooning to try and ape cinema in a vain attempt to seem relevant and somehow more sophisticated, the artists can't even comprehend the most fundamental rule of cinematic composition. This is hardly the first time I've seen an artist break the 180 degree rule multiple times in a single page and completely destroy any kind of cohesive design.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan bailey View Post
    One problem, of course, is that none of what you cite provides 10 minutes of entertainment, at most. I've read plenty of modern comics that took no more than half that to read, as I'm sure all of us have, & while you can always read them again (& again, & again ...), how many justify doing so?
    This is a complaint I have never understood. I don't think there is a single comic in my collection that I haven't reread at least five times. If the comic doesn't provide me with enough to want to return to it, I don't buy it. I also don't get the idea of speeding through a comic. Yeah, they go by faster than prose, but doesn't anybody take the time to really pore over a well designed page?

  11. #71
    Boycott Marvel. Francis Dawson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eumenides View Post
    Picasso wasn't doing sequential storytelling.
    http://thecribsheet-isabelinho.blogs...nsonge-de.html

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian Fine View Post
    something like Guernica has a certain readability to it.
    Curious that you mention this today, a Spanish director of photography claims now that the Guernica is inspired in the bombing scene of Borzage's Farewell to Arms. One of the things he says is that the painting reads right to left, just like the movie scene (which can be found after minute 52 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IjSQKjm9Ts).

    Full story here: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/cultu...lpepicul_1/Tes

    Graphic analysis with movie stills here: http://www.elpais.com/graficos/cultu...pepucul_1/Ges/

    Quote Originally Posted by benday-dot View Post
    The page as a whole can be the thing, one riot of an instant in which all directions are equal. Unlike a film in which one image does indeed fall after an another (even as great directors also attempt to defy this convention) a comic page cannot hide past from future or future from past.
    Some nice examples of this by Fred (one of the best artists who have experimented with the possibilities of comic narrative, yet largely unknown outside France):




  13. #73
    NOT Bucky O'Hare! The Confessor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tolworthy View Post
    Agreed!! When I was a teenager I used the Perishers' books to construct a map of their town, and sent it to Maurice Dodd. He phoned me up to thank me, and sent me a Perishers' original (signed by himself and Collins)!

    It's strips like this, with perfect art, perfect storytelling, and amazing use of every inch, that turned me into the ungrateful moaner that I am today. I want ALL comics to be that good.

    EDIT: found the map: the above strip takes place under the railway arch in the center of the picture. Wellington is walking north (you can just see the abandoned car in the map). As you can see, the map is not perfect - I drew the fence a little too long, and there are a couple of other inaccuracies as well. But all those locations became like old friends to me. Why can't all comic art be that real?

    I'm not exaggerating when I say that that map is one of the best things I've ever seen posted on these boards! That is fan-f***ing-tastic! I love it!

    It's great that you were so into The Perishers that you took the time to do the research and construct that map. It's actually really well drawn too....love the trees, the attention to detail in the buildings and the detail in Wellington's abandoned station, for example. It's also lovely that you sent it to Maurice Dodd and got a reply back. Brilliant story and a lovely map.

    I've actually saved it to my computer for future reference. Thanks for sharing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Roquefort Raider View Post
    Here's an example of repetition used to great effect, because the scripter knows how to pace the dialogue.

    Great example, Roquefort. That strip was an absolute pleasure to read.
    Last edited by The Confessor; 09-09-2011 at 02:29 AM.
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  14. #74
    what happens next? tolworthy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Confessor View Post
    I love it!
    You say the nicest things. I've never seen another comic like the Perishers for making a location seem real. It felt more real than real life. Just incredible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fesch
    Fred art
    That is beautiful stuff! I started writing a long post yesterday about my dreams of creating stuff like that, then deleted the post because it was so long and obscure. I am amazed and excited to see that somebody had already created strips like that.

    This illustrates why I think comics have barely scratched the surface of their potential. Imagine a series of stories like those Fred strips, but more detailed, so a more complex story could be told on one page, and the page was a single image stand-alone work of art. Strips like that could be framed and hung on the wall, and sold for premium prices. They would be ideal for paper publishing at low cost as they only require a single page. They would be ideal for the Internet generation as they can be grasped in a second, yet reward the reader for as long as they care to explore.

    I sometimes think that single page comics with a single dramatic image are the future of comics. When I am old and have more time (ha ha) I want to make comics like that: my first one will be an aerial view of Victorian London and by following the streets you can see a tiny figure of Sherlock Holmes, and by spotting tiny clues in the image you help him solve the case. Another strip could be a running battle in an underground lair, classic Steranko style. So many possibilities.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by tolworthy View Post
    This illustrates why I think comics have barely scratched the surface of their potential. Imagine a series of stories like those Fred strips, but more detailed, so a more complex story could be told on one page, and the page was a single image stand-alone work of art.
    Something like this, perhaps? (Another example where "sequential art" has little meaning)

    http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...9/05/ware5.JPG



    Quote Originally Posted by tolworthy View Post
    I sometimes think that single page comics with a single dramatic image are the future of comics. When I am old and have more time (ha ha) I want to make comics like that: my first one will be an aerial view of Victorian London and by following the streets you can see a tiny figure of Sherlock Holmes, and by spotting tiny clues in the image you help him solve the case. Another strip could be a running battle in an underground lair, classic Steranko style. So many possibilities.
    This should give you some food for thought. Ever heard of Gianni de Luca?

    http://3d-in-2d.com/wp-content/uploa...m-e-giu-r3.jpg

    Last edited by Fesch_; 09-09-2011 at 05:01 AM.

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