Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Why is that? The whole story is character depth until the final page.

Just because you use it in your own stories doesn't mean you like it.

(and honestly, sometimes you can tell if someone likes it by how well they utilize it... I'm not gonna go any further than that)

[wyokid]

Just because you use it in your own stories doesn't mean you like it.

(and honestly, sometimes you can tell if someone likes it by how well they utilize it... I'm not gonna go any further than that)

No please do. You don't mention something if you don't want to talk about it.

[Robbie_Jee]

There is a HUGE difference. They didn't drag on for page count, I don't care how long in real life it takes as long as it doesn't take a whole issue to explain one thing. End of Ultimatum had a person in the shadows it took up one page. Ultimate X #5 had one page to show who it was. I was sastisfied and it didn't drag on.

I know novels are a completely different medium to comicbooks but seeing as you've used films before as a comparison for your explaination, I'm interested to know what you're opinion is on novels. They are heavily decompressed with masses of character development. Do you get bored of reading them because the story drags on and because it can take a long while for the story to truly progress? To me, it's the little things that make characters engaging and interesting, like the relationship between Cap and Wasp or the conversations between Fury and his team about who would play who in a movie. Those examples are what gave a big insight into the characters. It was important for Fury to get that page time so that his character could be fleshed out more. It was nice to see him have a laugh and a joke. Without the foundations of character development, action sequences tend to be nothing more than cheap thrills.

[Robbie_Jee]

Also, The Ultimates IMO reads similar to a novel, except there's pictures that make it more visually pleasing. Why should The Ultimates be judged issue by issue? It's something I've never truly understood on this forum. Why can't a story be assessed as a whole?

I can't wait to see what people's opinions are on Ultimate Avengers 3 at the 'Reading the UU from the beginning' thread, because I think people will really enjoy it more if they read it as a whole. You wouldn't watch a film in ten minute bursts would you?

[Drz]

Also, The Ultimates IMO reads similar to a novel, except there's pictures that make it more visually pleasing. Why should The Ultimates be judged issue by issue? It's something I've never truly understood on this forum. Why can't a story be assessed as a whole?

Especially when they're not written as standalone issue arcs. It's like complaining the art sucks because it's not cartoony.

[wyokid]

Ultimate Avengers

Issue #1: 9/10

HOLY CRAP! What a start! All action with a jaw dropping ending! Amazing! Why couldn't Ultimates 1 and Ultimates 2 have been like this?

Issue #2: 8/10

This was an awesome issue and it really showed how fucked up Red Skull really is. Epic!

Issue #3: 8/10

This was a really nice setup for things to explode next issue.

Issue #4: 9/10

This one was the most action packed issue yet! It's really odd to see this coming out of Millar, but I'm not complaining!

Issue #5: 3/10

That opening was just not needed. Millar broke the most important rule about villains, never show how evil they are. This whole issue was full of that kind of stuff and it was just over-the-top and unnecessary.

Issue #6: 8/10

This was a great way to end. I loved the combined team-up of Steve's brilliance and Hawkeye's accuracy. The final page was incredibly ominous as well, can't wait to see what Fury is up to!

Ultimate Avengers 2

Issue #1: 9/10

Badass, thy name is Punisher.

Issue #2: 8/10

Low blow there Rhodey! I hope they get to finish their fight at some point. Oh and GHOST RIDER!!?

Issue #3: 7/10

This seems like it's slowly building to a giant battle, can't wait to see it!

Issue #4: 7/10

This was the continuation of the third issue's slow build-up to what I can only assume is the explosive fifth issue. It was still badass all around!

Issue #5: 8/10

DAMN! Vengeance is awesome! Cannot wait to see how this ends!

Issue #6: 9/10

This was a great ending with Frank getting his freedom and Ghost Rider getting what he wanted to!

New Ultimates

Issue #1: 8/10

This is a near-perfect mixture of Ultimates 2 and Ultimates 3.

Issue #2: 8/10

I cannot even describe how much I like this. As I said before this is Ultimates 5! (2+3)

Issue #3: 8/10

Hela is pregnant! Thor's gonna be a daddy!

Issue #4: 8/10

EPIC! Thor is talking normally again (thank you so much Loeb! Bendis really messed up there) too!

Issue #5: 9/10

This was a perfect ending to an excellent series!


Ultimate Avengers 3

Issue #1: 7/10

Call me crazy but there is something extremely not right with Stick and Ray, IMO their introduction is very ominous and dark. Oh, that and the fact that it kills Daredevil the same issue he was introduced. This was a badass start to what is sure to be another badass series!

Issue #2: 7/10

Oh crap! Vampire Hulk, Vampire Daredevil, Vampire Iron Man, and now Vampire Captain America!!? I can't wait to see how this ends!

Issue #3: 6/10

This was the slow issue but, I think it really needed to be. Now they get Blade on their side too!!?

Issue #4: 8/10

Okay I love this issue, started with a stab (no pun intended) at Twilight, ended with Captain America siding with the vampires. What is going to happen next!!?

Issue #5: 7/10

Hi Perun. Bye Perun. Good riddance. Vampire Giant Man!!? Will the next book be called Ultimate Vampire Avengers?

Issue #6: 7/10

This was a really badass ending to a really badass series.


Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates

Issue #1: 8/10

Treason! I cannot believe Fury has gone rouge!

Issue #2: 8/10

Wait so it was Danvers who went rogue!!? Did they both go rogue? What the hell is going on!!?

Issue #3: 9/10

SPIDER-MAN!!! NNNOOO!!!

Issue #4: 6/10

Where's Spider-Man? IDK MY BBF JILL? Seriously that was bad. Ending was jaw dropping though.

Issue #5: 7/10

Yes, it's silly, but it's a comic book.

Issue #6: 8/10

Fury's got his job back, but at what cost? Good ending to this series.

[wyokid]

I read Ultimates 1, Ultimates 2, Ultimates 3, Ultimatum, Ultimate Avengers, Ultimate Avengers 2, New Ultimates, Ultimate Avengers 3, and Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates in that order.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...0&postcount=78
http://forums.comicbookresources.com...0&postcount=96

Now for my final thoughts. Please note that this is MY opinion and I have explained it out as much as I wanted. This is going to be my last Loeb related post in this thread, I feel as though people need to be comparing Millar and Hickman more.

Ultimates 1 and Ultimates 2

I love these books, they are incredible, the characters are well developed, the story is epic, and the art is fantastic; if this was a film it would be amazing. Unfortunately, it's not and suffers greatly from that. I am a very fast reader and so it dragged so much (my ADHD doesn't help either) . If you hadn't figured it out, the scores I was giving each issue wasn't based on how good it was, but rather how much fun I had reading it. They are brilliant books, but they are very boring for me.

Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum

Now IMO Loeb still kept the characters the same and still made them different enough so that they weren't the exact same. The progression in the characters felt real to me and actually took The Ultimates off of their pedestals that Millar put them on and made them more human and relatable. Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum had a huge style change, but the characters were still the same ones that Millar wrote. Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum were more enjoyable for me to read. Ultimates 3 was a great comic that stands next to Millar's double feature having read them all in order. It picked up where Ultimates 2 ended and actually had the characters acting like something just happened in their lives with Tony drunk, Thor being his selfish and horny god that got him thrown out of Asgard self, and Hawkeye reacting to his family's death. For me Ultimates 1 and Ultimates 2 had just as many plot holes as Ultimates 3 and Ultimates 3 managed to fill some of them. To be honest I like Ultimates 3 more now after reading through them all then I did before since I pick up on all of the connection. Ultimatum on the other hand is a mess, had they made it a maxiseries Loeb would be able to give the character's deaths more meaning, you can actually see with some of them where he tried. Now I'm not sure if it was even Loeb's decision to only make it five issues, my guess is no, hell it wasn't even an event until Bendis thought it needed to be bigger. Believe it or not Ultimatum is just as much Bendis' fault as it is Loeb, Loeb gets the curse of being the writer. For me personally I didn't care about the characters that died (some of them I down right hated which made the series more enjoyable), but I know others did. Ultimatum, like war, is a necessary "evil" that the Ultimate Universe needed. Ultimate Fantastic Four was sucking near the end, and, though I don't agree with them, people didn't like the later part of Ultimate X-Man and Ultimates 3; Ultimate Spider-Man was the only good book for the majority and from the start Ultimate Marvel had been borderline to turning into 616. Something had to be done. Ultimatum turned the Ultimates Universe into a place that would never be able to turn into 616 and what it exactly needed to be. Post-Ultimatum was picking up the pieces and ended by finally doing what was originally planned to be in Ultimatum, Peter Parker dying. We are only just now getting out of Ultimatum and into what I believe is the true post-Ultimatum.

New Ultimates

This book is amazing. the art is beautiful and the dialogue is a perfect mix of being humorous and serious at the same time. I love this book above them all.

Ultimate Avengers, Ultimate Avengers 2, Ultimate Avengers 3, Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates.

I'm not really sure what to say, it's like Millar wrote Kick-Ass and Nemesis and never stopped. They aren't terrible, but that aren't great.

Now how would I actually grade them after reading them all again?

Ultimates Annuals (I'm grouping them because I found them all the same score): 8/10
Ultimates 1: 7/10
Ultimates 2: 8/10
Ultimates 3: 7/10
Ultimatum: 5/10
Ultimate Avengers 1: 7/10
Ultimate Avengers 2: 7/10
New Ultimates: 8/10
Ultimate Avengers 3: 6/10
Ultimate Avengers vs New Ultimates: 7/10

[Samorai_black]

I wish I had enough free time as you to go and read all the trades/books I bought, Im way behind.

[Drz]

Now IMO Loeb still kept the characters the same and still made them different enough so that they weren't the exact same.

But they just changed in an instant with no backstory or reason, you're the one in another thread claiming Thor got Out of character in Ultimates #5, yet here you're trying to claim that there we're no out of character moments whatsoever? Thor being a selffish douché who did no heroics but just slept with Valkyrie, Tony Stark being a selffish douché with no fun, Hawkeye wanting a suicidal death mission, Steve being an 80 year old cranky old man who seems to have no joy in his life among others.

human and relatable

Relatable how? By turning all characters into selffish douchebags who cared nothing but themselves? How is this relatable?

Thor being his selfish and horny god that got him thrown out of Asgard self

What happened in Millar's run that turned Thor from a hero to a selffish prick? He didn't get thrown out from Asgard.

Ultimates 1 and Ultimates 2 had just as many plot holes

What plotholes?

Believe it or not Ultimatum is just as much Bendis' fault as it is Loeb, Loeb gets the curse of being the writer

So why did he choose to make it Michael Bay style action instead of something like Ultimate X with narration building up the emotions? Jeph Loeb himself compares Ultimatum with Michael Bay

"After the big screen Michael Bay/Roland Emerich feel of ULTIMATUM, I wanted to do something that was smaller, more character-driven," relates Loeb. "I was very affected by the first five issues of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN and how well [writer] Brian Michael Bendis crafted that story. He really taught me a lot."

He was the writer, he could have chosen to make this a character driven story and kjeep the big screen Michael Bay vibe, but he chose not to. He chose action over emotion. He gets the blame.

[wyokid]

I wish I had enough free time as you to go and read all the trades/books I bought, Im way behind.

Actually, I still have a ton of stuff to read. I just wanted to get this done with lol

[Robbie_Jee]

Especially when they're not written as standalone issue arcs. It's like complaining the art sucks because it's not cartoony.

I know! I've said that about 4 times now and nobody can give me a straight answer. Posters have said that reading comics in issue format gives you a better understanding of the writer. I didn't really know what they meant by that. Another poster joked and said 'What if it's an anthology film?' I just couldn't get a proper answer out of anybody. I might do a thread about it someday. I'd love to hear why people think getting a story in issues every month is better than getting a whole arc in TPB or a collected HC. The only possitive I see is getting the story as soon as possible.

[wyokid]

I know! I've said that about 4 times now and nobody can give me a straight answer. Posters have said that reading comics in issue format gives you a better understanding of the writer. I didn't really know what they meant by that. Another poster joked and said 'What if it's an anthology film?' I just couldn't get a proper answer out of anybody. I might do a thread about it someday. I'd love to hear why people think getting a story in issues every month is better than getting a whole arc in TPB or a collected HC. The only possitive I see is getting the story as soon as possible.

That...that was me...

I of course had just been being sarcastic, I think trade is better.

[Samorai_black]

I know! I've said that about 4 times now and nobody can give me a straight answer. Posters have said that reading comics in issue format gives you a better understanding of the writer. I didn't really know what they meant by that. Another poster joked and said 'What if it's an anthology film?' I just couldn't get a proper answer out of anybody. I might do a thread about it someday. I'd love to hear why people think getting a story in issues every month is better than getting a whole arc in TPB or a collected HC. The only possitive I see is getting the story as soon as possible.

I think some people like single issue format better becuase the issue can sink and can be talked about in between the next issue. As well as a cliffhanger having more affect. In the end though I dont know.

For me I rather get the whole story at once so its there and I wont forget somethings that have happened in between the wait.

[Robbie_Jee]

For me Ultimates 1 and Ultimates 2 had just as many plot holes as Ultimates 3.

I think someone's telling porkypies. Please say what these plotholes are. And then we can compare them to the plotholes in Ultimate 3.

[Wolverine12]

@ Wyokid, you've said you like angry destroy everything Thor. In your review of Ultimates 2 you said you don't care for the story, but Thor is going apeshit on the Ultimates beating the crap out of them.

Why do u like Loeb apeshit Thor, but not Millar apeshit Thor??