Comparing the Ultimates: Millar, Loeb, Hickman, Humphries

[wyokid]

Seriously am I really the only one bothered that the women in a Michael Bay film have done more then in Hickman's entire run?

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

Unless the next couple of issues focus entirely on the female cast, Hickman's whole run gets a "meh" from me.

Hey there Wyo, long time, no debate. Hope you're well. I'm going to preface my comment by pointing out what should be obvious, but I know from unfortunate experience that if I don't make this point somebody will assume I'm attempting to 'correct' an opinion and call me out on the obvioius counter-productiveness of such a tactic, so here goes:

I fully understand the nature of opinions, and how there is very little that could be classified as objectively 'good,' 'bad,' 'great,' mediocre' etc in an artistic medium, but once again, as I have been many times before (an example: you very proudly and frequently proclaim your love of Loeb's Ultimates work, which is as alien a concept to me as somebody thinking black liquorice is the bees knees, when to me, not only is it not great, it's not even tolerable), I find myself baffled by your stance here, and on this series as a whole. Obviously go ahead and correct me if I've misinterpreted you, but it seems that what you're saying, essentially, is that, even if the story was one that you found to be strong on every conceivable level other than your belief that the female characters are not represented enough or fleshed out to a satisfactory degree (which I know isn't the case since I've read plenty of criticisms of yours on the series as a whole other than the above one, but you brought up this argument as the primary thing keeping you at this time from rating this above 'meh,' so I think the point is valid), that one criticism alone would make the whole story, again even if otherwise great in your eyes other than this one factor, simply 'meh'? Not even 'pretty decent but not a classic or great'?

No offense intended at all, but this is the main reason why I'm consistently confused and simultaneously thoroughly intrigued by your posts (other than when you 'hose me' of course), because if past history is any indication, we are almost certain to disagree on most things, and I find the fact that every single person develops a relatively unique world-view and subsequent preferences that are at least subtly different but sometimes vastly disparate from both my own and everybody else's to be a consistently fascinating puzzler (and if there's one thing I enjoy, besides sex, drinking, eating, sleeping and some other stuff, it's something that, on the surface, confuses me, forcing me to look harder for understanding).

I've made my opinions on this story clear: I think it's made almost entirely of awesome and is an instant classic, and if nothing else the fact that many others seem to agree with me, both on this board and in basically every single review I've read (plus the few people that I've actually met in person who read this series along with me) brings a sense, at least to me, that my opinion is at minimum likely well thought out and perfectly reasonable, if not necessarily indicative of any real validation (after all, Nickelback's every album goes platinum and...well, you know what I'm saying here....just because the majority of people agree with an opinion, it does not mean that opinion is objectively true, especially where art and entertainment is concerned).

Having said that, the fact that almost everybody here and most people elsewhere that I've encountered disagrees with you on, say, your position on Loeb's Ultimate work as well as your overall opinion of Hickman's current Ultimates, does not make that opinion any less valid, or less worthy of being expressed, but it certainly makes it more unique and intriguing to somebody like me, who not only disagrees, but does so on almost every level imaginable. I do see some of what you mean in the quoted post above, to a point: the scope of the book is such that character development outside of a handful of players has been confined to brief moments (in fact, other than Thor, Tony, Fury, Reed, and the Brothers Zorn, and more recently Captain Britain, nobody has recieved a ton of character development), but I would argue that other characters who have recieved less screen time, such as the female characters I assume you're referring to in your post above (Spider-Woman and Black Widow I'm guessing, since they are the only remotely significant female characters in the book), still end up making the most out of the few pages they show up on.

For instance, Jessica Drew, despite being a named member of the official Ultimates roster, has appeared in only half the issues thus far, if that, but she generally has at least one or two lines (or facial expressions, or scribbled notes about how 'The Ultimates suck' or how 'being on the Ultimates sucks,' or, for instance, notes from Fury informing her of the new Spider-Man's existence) that provide some insight, however small, into her character. As an example, the scene with no dialogue a few issues back when she recieves Fury's note about what Miles Morales was up to was memorable, in my mind, for conveying a wide range of emotions in Jessica (anger, fear, awkwardness trying to adjust to her new life, etc.). Hickman is the ultimate example (pun intended) of a super-efficient writer (perhaps on the surface seemingly an odd description of his style, considering how long and involved much of his work is) in the sense that there are no pages or panels that one could reasonably describe as being 'wasted', that don't have some significance to the characters themselves or the overall narrative, and with only the rare gratuitious splash page (and with Ribic drawing, I don't even mind these as much, since they're so detailed I end up spending several minutes picking apart the big vistas on display and taking in all the subtle touches).

Ultimately (again, pun very emphatically intended) I find this opinion of yours to be, perhaps, a bit poorly thought out (again, just how I see it, no offense intended) in the sense that you seem to expect Hickman to find a way to force these women into more prominent roles within the story when, in reality, both are hugely out of their depth at dealing with this type of thing, and if this were to happen to real life versions of these characters, they would probably be minimally involved as well. Granted, all the heroes to this point have seemed overwhelmed, but really, what use would Spider-Woman be in a large scale engagement agains the Children or People? She's simply not powerful enough to make much, if any, difference, unless it was an all hands on deck, last stand type of situation.

As for Black Widow, she's had some decent scenes, most recently being part of the emmisary group sent to Tian to make a treaty, which surely must mean she is respected and valued by her teammates. I think, perhaps, the problem here is not that the females present are under-utilized (I think, as I just said, that they are utilized to their greatest extent possible within the framework of what is happening in the story; much more would seem forced, character development simply for the sake of filling a few more pages), but that there aren't more females, period, and especially that there aren't more females whose power sets and personalities would make them an obvious choice to consistently be on the front lines.

Is this a flaw? Possibly, depending on your perspective. For instance, it would seem to have made sense for Sue Storm to be prominently involved in this story (and it was alluded in an interview posted in this very thread that she - or possibly Ben Grimm - will not only appear, but play a prominent role in future events) for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that, her brains and other non-super-power-related assets aside, her power set makes her a potentially devastating combatant. There's also the obvious fact that she used to love Reed Richards, the villain of the story, which would add a further interesting dynamic to things. Anyway, just my two cents...sorry it went so long. Something must be in the water, because unlike Hickman, I can't seem to express myself efficiently tonight.

[Wolverine12]

Wall of text incarnate.

[wyokid]

Hey there Wyo...

I promise I will read this when it's not almost 3 AM, I tried and all the words started merging lol.

[vmenge]

Seriously am I really the only one bothered that the women in a Michael Bay film have done more then in Hickman's entire run?

Eh... I don't see why this should bother anyone. It happens... I don't think there's anything wrong with it unless it's clearly on purpose for all the wrong reasons.

REALLYBIGWALLOFTEXT

I think this was the most educated reply to a blatantly different opinion I have ever read in my whole life (especially on the internet)!

Like a sir!

[wyokid]

My problem is how they've all been only seen as following men's orders, getting coffee, taking care of children, getting knocked out, and just standing in the background. So glad Sam is going to focus on the women.

[JaggedFel]

My problem is how they've all been only seen as following men's orders, getting coffee, taking care of children, getting knocked out, and just standing in the background. So glad Sam is going to focus on the women.

IMO, yeah the women need more panel time and development but a few comments. First, they made Hawkeye get the coffee and second their more military like so they all take commands. Although I did enjoy Monica's lullaby very non conventional. Still probably need to add more females, we have Spider-woman and Black Widow versus Fury, Falcon, Hawkeye, Thor, Captain Britain and Iron Man. Plus imminent return of Captain America and the Hulk is around. War Machine is around. Red Wasp should come back especially since Rhodey has a crush on her.

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

I think this was the most educated reply to a blatantly different opinion I have ever read in my whole life (especially on the internet)!

Like a sir!

Thanks for the kind words, sir. Once again, I apologize for the overwhelming size of the post - I literally had no idea I'd gone on that long until I actually posted it and saw what it looked like. I just got into a rhythm, and the ideas were flowing like a downhill stream. I'm glad, despite the size, that you took the time to read it though. Thanks again for the compliment.

IMO, yeah the women need more panel time and development but a few comments. First, they made Hawkeye get the coffee and second their more military like so they all take commands. Although I did enjoy Monica's lullaby very non conventional. Still probably need to add more females, we have Spider-woman and Black Widow versus Fury, Falcon, Hawkeye, Thor, Captain Britain and Iron Man. Plus imminent return of Captain America and the Hulk is around. War Machine is around. Red Wasp should come back especially since Rhodey has a crush on her.

Agreed about Petra; when was she last seen, anyway? Ultimate Avengers 3, maybe? The one with the vampires? She was in that, right? I never thought much about her as a member of the Liberators - she didn't do much besides get dismissively stepped on by a giant Janet Pym. She became a fascinating character to me during the excellent and chilling Red Skull arc in Ultimate Avengers 1, though. Her backstory, having been forced by the Skull and his men to make an impossible choice between killing her captured and tied up husband using only a pair of blunt scissors, or the Red Skull killing her baby in front of her. She chose to kill her husband, which I'm sure was horrifying enough, but then ended up taking over an hour to manage to kill him, I'm sure partially because she was murdering somebody she loved and couldn't bring herself to be cold and efficient about it, even though that would have been much better for the husband (seriously, you should be able to kill somebody pretty quickly with even blunt scissors by opening up the jugular, and you'd think she would have known that as a doctor, and perhaps she did but couldn't muster the strength to do it 'properly', which, of course, would be understandable, you know, because she was BEING FORCED TO KILL THE LOVE OF HER LIFE WITH A PAIR OF SCISSORS and couldn't really be expected to be thinking clearly at that point). Then, just to be even more horrible, the Red Skull throws her baby out the window anyway, just 'to send a message.' I'm not usually a fan of any character killing another in cold blood, even somebody as much of a complete monster as this particular version of the Skull, especially when the threat of said person has been mitigated (the Skull had been separated from the Cosmic Cube, impaled, and was barely alive in a hospital; he wasn't going to be hurting anybody anytime soon, or ever again in all likelihood), but when I read the scene where she walks in and, with a very satisfied look on her face, coldly shoots the helpless Skull in the head, I was cheering inside for this amazing, strong female character. In addition to producing one of the truly horrifying comic book bad guys I've ever read, that story made me sympathize with a woman who willingly took part in a super-human invasion and coup of the American government. I wouldn't have thought it possible to not only come to understand her motivations, but truly sympathize and feel acute empathy for such a person. A great character with a lot of potential in the hands of the right writer, that's Petra Laskov, and very underrated as well. Maybe Humphries will use her, and here's hoping.

[Plawsky]

My problem is how they've all been only seen as following men's orders, getting coffee, taking care of children, getting knocked out, and just standing in the background.

Well Fury's in charge, they're supposed to follow his orders. Just like when Sharon and Wasp were in charge, the men had to follow their orders. Even still, Monica has been Fury's voice of reason on multiple occasions, and she's been involved in the strategy forming with Fury and Hawkeye. Plus, she and Jessica had some great ass kicking in issue #3.

The Ultimates are made up of primarily male powerhouses - Cap, Thor, Iron Man - led by Nick Fury. This is a hierarchy that was set up long before Hickman came aboard. In fact, the one time they did have an uber-powerful female on the team, she didn't do anything, then she went home. If you're giving focus to the main characters, obviously the others are going to have to sit out for a bit. And that doesn't go just for the females; it's not like Captain Britain has gotten much development, either. I don't see why that should affect the quality of the story.

[wyokid]

Hey there Wyo...

Okay, the spacing helped a lot.

Other than the women's roles my other criticisms are:

• WWWAAAYYY too much focus on Thor. Hickman did and Ultimate Thor miniseries, New Ultimates focused on Thor, and then the first arc was all about Thor. While Loeb halped me like the character a lot more and Hickman continued using that Thor, it's too much focus on him. This is a team book, it needs to focus on the team as a whole (which goes back to the women's roles). Even before that The Ultimates 2 was about Thor.
• Asgard inside Thor. I know a lot of people liked this, but I turned to the page and just burst out laughing at the silliness of it. I will say that if Thor is going insane Hickman is doing it a billion times better then Millar could even hope to do.
• The Children and The People. Warring races has been done to death, they've been given no development, Zorns are uninteresting and overpowered, and The fact that not one, but three series have focused on The People is just too much focus with that little development.
• Predictable. The only part of this issue I didn't see coming was the power Xorn unleashed (mainly because I didn't think anyone was stupid enough (Hickman is a very smart man, he just made a really stupid choice here) to make a character that powerful) and the severity of Reed's attack (which I should have seen coming because they left the president in the shadows even though it was supposed to be Obama (there's a law against killing a sitting president in fiction by keeping him in the shadows they have the defense that he's not Obama)). I saw The People winning and I saw that Reed was going to strike back, just not the extremity of the force.
• HULK SMASH! HULK SMASH! HULK-talks out his problems.
• Sausage fest. Already focused on this one.

This is really all I can think of atm. It's not a bad book by any means, it's just not great like New Ultimates was for me. New Ultimates also had a TON of pro-feminism subtext (which I am making a "paper" on, but I've been picking up more hours so it's been placed on "when I'm not busy" time).

IMO, yeah the women need more panel time and development but a few comments. First, they made Hawkeye get the coffee and second their more military like so they all take commands. Although I did enjoy Monica's lullaby very non conventional. Still probably need to add more females, we have Spider-woman and Black Widow versus Fury, Falcon, Hawkeye, Thor, Captain Britain and Iron Man. Plus imminent return of Captain America and the Hulk is around. War Machine is around. Red Wasp should come back especially since Rhodey has a crush on her.

Very first issue is the coffee part. While I enjoyed the "lullaby" due to how the rest of the series has been on handling the women's roles it unintentionally came off as "it's her job to take care of the baby because she's a woman" even though I know it wasn't supposed to. Sure we had that one scene where Spider-Woman actually fought, but when it's a team book all the main players need to getting the same amount of focus. Also just because it's military doesn't mean they can't speak up.

[Plawsky]

This is really all I can think of atm. It's not a bad book by any means, it's just not great like New Ultimates was for me. New Ultimates also had a TON of pro-feminism subtext.

A bunch of stuff like "women are easily tricked" and "all women are driven by their need for a man."

when it's a team book all the main players need to getting the same amount of focus.

I'd love for you to show me an ongoing team book that consists of more than five members that gives each member the same amount of focus. As far as the Ultimate Universe goes, Millar's Ultimates is the closest you're going to find. X-Men always favored a few members at a time and Fantastic Four was mostly about Reed. Loeb did nothing with Zarda, Ka-Zar, Shanna, and Black Panther, despite their inclusion in New Ultimates.

I can't think of a single team book I've read that evenly distributes focus. Bendis's Avengers heavily favors the Cage family, Uncanny X-Men is all about Cyclops and Emma Frost, X-Men Legacy is essentially a Rogue solo title, and Wolverine and the X-Men obviously focuses on Wolverine. It's simply impossibly to give all the main players the same amount of focus in every story.

What's more, Spider-Woman and Black Widow are not really main players. They are clearly meant to be second-tier members of the Ultimates, and therefore aren't going to command the same amount of focus as Thor and Iron Man.

Also just because it's military doesn't mean they can't speak up.

Did you not read the issues where Black Widow is sitting in on strategy sessions with Hawkeye and Fury?

[Chaos_Alfa]

I'd love for you to show me an ongoing team book that consists of more than five members that gives each member the same amount of focus. As far as the Ultimate Universe goes, Millar's Ultimates is the closest you're going to find. X-Men always favored a few members at a time and Fantastic Four was mostly about Reed. Loeb did nothing with Zarda, Ka-Zar, Shanna, and Black Panther, despite their inclusion in New Ultimates.

I can't think of a single team book I've read that evenly distributes focus. Bendis's Avengers heavily favors the Cage family, Uncanny X-Men is all about Cyclops and Emma Frost, X-Men Legacy is essentially a Rogue solo title, and Wolverine and the X-Men obviously focuses on Wolverine. It's simply impossibly to give all the main players the same amount of focus in every story.

X-Factor does this very well.

[wyokid]

A bunch of stuff like "women are easily tricked" and "all women are driven by their need for a man."



I'd love for you to show me an ongoing team book that consists of more than five members that gives each member the same amount of focus. As far as the Ultimate Universe goes, Millar's Ultimates is the closest you're going to find. X-Men always favored a few members at a time and Fantastic Four was mostly about Reed. Loeb did nothing with Zarda, Ka-Zar, Shanna, and Black Panther, despite their inclusion in New Ultimates.

I can't think of a single team book I've read that evenly distributes focus. Bendis's Avengers heavily favors the Cage family, Uncanny X-Men is all about Cyclops and Emma Frost, X-Men Legacy is essentially a Rogue solo title, and Wolverine and the X-Men obviously focuses on Wolverine. It's simply impossibly to give all the main players the same amount of focus in every story.

What's more, Spider-Woman and Black Widow are not really main players. They are clearly meant to be second-tier members of the Ultimates, and therefore aren't going to command the same amount of focus as Thor and Iron Man.



Did you not read the issues where Black Widow is sitting in on strategy sessions with Hawkeye and Fury?

Sure on the surface New Ultimates has that, but you need to go deeper.

I started reading X-Factor by Peter David after Carmen "attacked" me for not reading it. It balances the characters incredibly well.

EDIT: Beaten to it lol

I did. That was a small start.

[Plawsky]

X-Factor does this very well.

I started reading X-Factor by Peter David after Carmen "attacked" me for not reading it. It balances the characters incredibly well.

Yeah, that's true. X-Factor is a great book, and Peter David does an awesome job with a no-name cast. But if you were to nitpick it, it is still very Madrox heavy (which it should be, he's the main character). The only other book I can think of is Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, which has a relatively small cast. Well, and Watchmen. I'm not saying there aren't more, but they are few and far between.

Anyway, my point is that few team books give this balance you're calling for; it's only natural to focus on a smaller portion of the cast at one time. And, as I pointed out, the Ultimate team books have never had it, with the possible exception of Millar's Ultimates.

Sure on the surface New Ultimates has that, but you need to go deeper.

Well, considering you seem unwilling to tell anyone any reason why that's inaccurate, I'll just continue not seeing it. The only positive character arc of the females is Valkyrie's, who overcomes her need for Thor. But she's still not independent, just just has a different master. Zarda shows some power, but not without mentioning Hyperion and her desire to impress him. Carol beat Amora, but is still sleeping with a guy she hates.

Yes, the book has underplayed its female characters under Hickman, but his run has not been especially character-oriented in general. Each of the major players has gotten at least one interesting character beat, including Black Widow, but the emphasis of the title has consistently fallen on world-building and political maneuvering. The story seems to be about what happens when the world changes faster than people can adjust...so the comparative shortage of character moments to plot moments makes sense.

Exactly. There has been a lot more focus on the situations, and what that has done to the team - and the world - as a whole, than the characters individually.

[Robbie_Jee]

Seriously am I really the only one bothered that the women in a Michael Bay film have done more then in Hickman's entire run?

You're not the only one who sees it but you're probably the only one that has a problem with it or is bothered by it.